Kyle/Aviemore turntable photos

[Julian Roberts]

I think I am not the only person interested in making a model of this turntable. (It was removed from Kyle when it fell into disuse.) So in case they are useful here are the photos I took yesterday. Just a mobile phone camera. If this takes up unnecessary space on the website system please advise me.

I've somehow loaded them in reverse order.

[grovenor-2685]

A good set of pictures. I would think the flatbottom ring rail is new, not from Kyle.

[Julian Roberts]

That's a useful point Keith, thanks. I saw a Bexhill West James Walters video where he mentions Martin Wynne had shown him the type of rail fixings typically used, I'll try to find out more.

By the way, between the rails was covering, so it isn't necessary to model the structure underneath visible above for my period.

I may have more pictures showing both aspects at home.

Actually, looking at this photo below, I wonder if the ring rail is the same or similar as my photos above?

[davebradwell]

I woud think Strathspey would struggle to bend a new bit of rail - it would need a mighty bender!

DaveB

[grovenor-2685]

Of course I could be wrong, but the fixings in particular look new. but your photo of Kyle certainly looks similar. Probably not to difficult to find someone at Strathspey who knows.

[Mark Tatlow]

Of course I could be wrong, but the fixings in particular look new. but your photo of Kyle certainly looks similar. Probably not to difficult to find someone at Strathspey who knows.

The turntable at Kyle was enlarged immediately post war to enable the Black 5s to go down the line, so in practice it is not as old as you might presume.

A picture of it just prior to removal here https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/58/821/

[James Walters]

Hi Julian,

Great photos, thank you for sharing them.

That's a useful point Keith, thanks. I saw a Bexhill West James Walters video where he mentions Martin Wynne had shown him the type of rail fixings typically used, I'll try to find out more.

I’d used some rail chairs which I’d extracted from Templot for the mock-up in the video. I have a drawing showing the fixing Ransomes and Rapier used on some their turntables. I’ll dig it out later and post a picture. From memory they are simple spikes hammered into timber plugs inserted into slab. The rail was F.B. I’d used BH in my mock-up hence the bow wiring of chairs from Templot.

I’ve also now got a working prototype of the turntable control system I’d mentioned previously. I’ll post a picture on the other turntable thread later.

Best,

James

[James Walters]

Further to my notes above, and of course of no relevance to the Kyle/Aviemore turntable, but perhaps of use to others....

Ransomes and Rapier did indeed spike the race rail foot, as shown here:

Ransomes and Rapier Race Rail fixing.jpg

This it taken from a drawing dated 1913, and is of a 65' turntable. The Race Rail is 60 lbs/ft section. The casting shown here with the hold-down bolts at 8" centres has nothing to do with the race rail, it's part of the locking mechanism.

Whilst checking this, I thought I'd take a look at the LSWR Type 55' A turntable, the race rail of which appears to be bullhead in standard chairs, with the chairs bolted to timber baulks.

LSWR Type A turntable Race Rail.jpg

Again, of no relevance to the topic, but of interest to some perhaps.

Best,

James

[Julian Roberts]

Very many thanks for your posts here, James, and explaining the Templot connection. Your drawings remind me I bought a copy of the well drawing from Carlisle Archives but made a non disclosure agreement while doing so. I can't make much out of it but can see the ring rail is FB, and that the rail joints look the same as on my photos.

I noticed also the FB rails on the turntable itself on my Aviemore photos, and see a bit on Mark's linked photo. (Thanks Mark!) When/if I buy further drawings the rail type will probably be clear. In the photo here I've not noticed before the sleeper on the rails in front of the loco. Wonder what that was doing?!

Glad the photos are not thought a waste of space. Keep up the channel James, I really enjoy your videos.

[Mark Tatlow]

I would say that the sleeper is actually a lot higher than the loco and closer to the photographer. Is it thus not on the coaling bank to hold a bit of the coal in place?


Mark

[Will L]

... In the photo here I've not noticed before the sleeper on the rails in front of the loco. Wonder what that was doing?!...

Good question, and if you look the same sleeper, or one rather like it, is in this photo from above.

[essdee]

That 'sleeper' appears to have at least three bolts and two empty holes along its side, in the first image. Its 'far' side also appears 'nibbled' approximately at track gauge locations.

Is it being used as a 'stop' beam when the longer locos eg. the Black Five, are being positioned on the turntable? It is blocking the loco's exit off the turntable after turning, so would have prevented over-run when it entered the table, in the absence of a buffer stop. There appears to be a second similar timber behind the tender; therefore the next engine to enter the turntable will have a handy stop block ready at the far end, and will carry the 'near' stop timber back round to the far end, in turn?

Simple, neat - and a ready supply of replacements when required? A nice modelling detail.

Steve

[Julian Roberts]

Nice detective work Steve! Could the two crew manage to heave a sleeper like that? I suppose it was child's play after manually coaling the tender...
Yes I've found it's quite tricky stopping the Crab and Compound in the right place, both noticeably shorter than a Black 5! (on my 240mm non-realistic "turntable")

Mark - I've found a photo Jeremy put on my related thread that possibly raises as many questions as it answers!
viewtopic.php?t=7017

[John Palmer]

I go along with Mark about the sleeper not being on the turntable. Going to the relevant Ernie Brack album in Flickr reveals that this is the subject of two near-identical Casserley photographs, 631 and 632. 632 shows a little more of what's in front of the sleeper (if such it be) than the upthread picture, as shown in this extract:

Casserley Kyle 632 extract.png

If the beam was lying athwart the turntable track I'd expect to see the continuation of that track on the nearside of the beam, and I don't. Why put a beam across the track anyway? - just get another turn on your tender handbrake!

[Mark Tatlow]

Nice detective work Steve! Could the two crew manage to heave a sleeper like that? I suppose it was child's play after manually coaling the tender...
Yes I've found it's quite tricky stopping the Crab and Compound in the right place, both noticeably shorter than a Black 5! (on my 240mm non-realistic "turntable")

Mark - I've found a photo Jeremy put on my related thread that possibly raises as many questions as it answers!
viewtopic.php?t=7017

Julian, remember that this is the original turntable, not the rebuild so not likely to offer more insight.

The sleeper in a similar place on this one looks to be a short section of track; perhaps for a platelayers trolley. There is no information that such vehicles existed prewar (which this picture looks to be) but it makes sense that they did.

[essdee]

Thanks John,

Yes, your enlarged view does clearly explain that one, then!

Steve

[Julian Roberts]

Hmm this will remain a question I think. Returning to Steve's idea, I can't get a Black 5 drawing online right now to find out the wheelbase, but the length is 63ft 8ins. Not much room for error on the 60ft table. (This longer table was installed specifically for the Black 5s).

Thank you all for your thoughts.

[John Palmer]

The information tabulated in Rowledge and Reed's book on Stanier 4-6-0s is that Black Five class members numbered up to 5499 had a nominal overall wheelbase of 53' 2.75". On subsequent locomotives fitted with Timken axleboxes the wheelbase between intermediate and trailing driving wheelsets is given as being 8' 4", as against 8' 0" on earlier units, with a corresponding 4" increase in the length of the locomotive and its overall wheelbase. The additional four inches was required because the firebox would not conveniently fit between the larger Timken boxes. Nominally there was a 7" gap between engine and tender, but perhaps this might be reduced slightly by compression of the engine-tender buffing gear. That leaves a respectable margin of about 6' 6" for positioning a class member on a 60' table.

I assume that the Casserley picture shows 45478 after it had been positioned on the table but before turning - unless for some obscure reason there was a need for it to run tender first on departure from Kyle!

[Julian Roberts]

I'm not wishing to resurrect the speculation. Just for completeness I found I had this photo on my phone. It does show, among other things, the rails were FB

[grovenor-2685]

I wonder if the white fence posts were to guide the driver where to stop, should be pretty close to the engine/tender coupling.

[Julian Roberts]

Bill Roberton has kindly sent me some photographs he took of the removal of the turntable from Kyle in 1977. He says

"As I remember, the table had been stripped down by previous work parties. The two main components were separated and the running rails removed. The shorter 'half' was jacked up and the rails used to support it. Then a heavy recovery lifted it and dragged to the former engine shed area. A few days later the other 'half' was rotated (for the first time in ? years) and the exercise repeated. Finally the bogies and support rails were removed. I can't recall if the turntable was transported to Aviemore by rail but I think it was."

Actually I met a chap there a couple of weeks ago who remembered playing as a kid on the TT with his friends, making it go round and round. (Elf'n'safety?!) Another person said on the Facebook group 'Kyle Line and its Staff' that vipers used to nest in the well.

Photos by Bill Roberton: