West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

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Allan Goodwillie
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West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun May 10, 2020 9:44 pm

Hello everyone :)

It is a while since the last posting on the thread and this should be the final section that I will do on locomotive construction. It will deal with finishing primarily and see what the final outcomes were with the locomotives under construction for my Scott's Road layout. The engines are still progressing including the three large Barclay tanks. Since I had been down to go to Scalefour North this year I was only expecting to have about half the fleet of engines running by then. They are at an interesting stage where they have all been painted out in ex-works condition, prior to weathering and have now been tested for operation, but are yet to be run in and further finishing done.

Going back to the Christmas previous to last, my friend David Grosz died, I had been David's carer prior to him going into a home unfortunately he died that Christmas leaving me to deal with all of his affairs - this took up most of my time for about 4 months as he had no family, and left me short of time to complete the layout and stock, so last September at Scalefourum I suggested that it might be better to put off for another year. As it so happens Scalefour North did not go ahead as planned, which from my own point of view was just as well as my son Dave and I came down with really bad 'flu after attending the Preston Exhibition and were very ill for three weeks. We have not been tested so do not know if it was the Covid Virus or not. We would have had to pull out of Scalefour North any way, so somehow I think we were never meant to be there.

Since recovering I have begun to catch up and maybe I can start to add material to the forum again. I was not sure whether to cover painting of the locomotives or the application of transfers or lining as it has been well covered elsewhere. I will do something on weathering as there is more of an art to that and I want to look at finishing and testing and what to look for when fault finding, which may also be of some help.

The first stage of the layout is being done old style with DCC being added at a later date as well as sound, so that will only be covered in 2021 The layout is supposed to be going in a stage 1 state to Newcastle in November (If things are back to the old normal - but that is questionable at this point in time, we will just have to wait and see.) The locomotives have all progressed to the first trial stage and all but one are operable. They will still require proper running in, but I am pleased to say that the Barclay locos are already good runners and are more or less complete.

Sometimes it is better to leave some of the smallest and most fragile details until all painting is complete so certain small items like the whistles for example will only get fitted quite late on. All of the engines ran with a bunker wagon to provide them with extra coal on the longer journeys over the Wemyss line. I have already made a batch of them, but they are still to be linked to the locomotives and the extra pickups connected through to the engines.

Over the next few weeks I hope to show the present state of play and what has still to be done and show progress as it continues towards November.
Just to whet the appetite as it were here is a photograph I took the other day to record No.8 the middle sized Barclay. It is one of the NCB engines and is based on Chris Gibbon's kit - just a photo at this stage.

DSC06316.JPG
The little engine blown up in a cruel manner.


I will post a bit more about it later this week when I get the time.

:) Allan
Last edited by Allan Goodwillie on Wed May 13, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby DougN » Mon May 11, 2020 2:17 am

Looks great Allan.

The colour of the loco is very distinctive in the light green. I am finding industrials from Chris at High Level hard to resist. My latest is the 12" Nielsen has gone a rather nice deep blue which is a Tamiya colour.
Nielsen 01.jpeg

Ok not the best shot of the loco (or my gloved hand or the dogs kennel :? ) but as this is painted from a rattle can. The colour is deeper than I expected but has grown on me as the industrials can effectively have any colour you choose. This is a gloss so may get knocked back to satin with a varnish. However I am considering a bit of white lining to spruce it up a little.
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Mon May 11, 2020 8:32 am

I've learned something useful this morning - I'd never thought of putting on a plastic glove and holding a model whilst spraying it.

The Barclay 0-6-0T looks very nice. I'm looking forward to seeing the big Barclays progress.

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon May 11, 2020 8:45 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:It is a while since the last posting on the thread and this should be the final section that I will do on locomotive construction


Very good to see you back on here Allan and a very nice looking loco. Presumably some weathering to come? :)

Terry Bendall

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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon May 11, 2020 9:23 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hello everyone :)
All of the engines ran with a bunker wagon to provide them with extra coal on the longer journeys over the Wemyss line. I have already made a batch of them, but they are still to be linked to the locomotives and the extra pickups connected through to the engines.

:) Allan


Hi Allan,

I am interested in the longer journey's. My research on the monsaldale line and specifically with reference to the Johnson half cab 1fs, has suggested that if anything water capacity provides a greater problem than coal in terms of range. I would be interested in your thoughts on this .... were there regular watering points on your route? What do you think the water range was? On the monsaldale line the locos were working hard on the down line due to the incline but could coast nicely in the other direction. I have still yet to get a definitive answer as to the true range of these locos ... and the loading under this might be achieved.

Glad to have you back and hopefully well? :thumb
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Mon May 11, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby DougN » Mon May 11, 2020 10:03 am

Pete, happy to have given you the idea! It is one of my painting techniques or rules. My method for painting starts with cleaning with saucepan cleaner (same active ingredient as barmans friend) once dried off. I don't touch it again unless with gloves. The gloves are dustless "food grade" from Bunnings. I find using the gloves a easy way to avoid ending up with paint in places it shouldn't!
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Noel
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Noel » Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:I have still yet to get a definitive answer as to the true range of these locos ... and the loading under this might be achieved


I doubt that you ever will. There are a lot of variables involved: gradients, loadings, how much [or how little] stopping and starting, the skill levels of both driver and fireman, the condition of the locomotive, how good [or otherwise] the coal is, the train speed required to meet the timetable, the weather, and probably others I haven't though of. No driver would want to risk running short of water, nor would his employers want to take any risks with their very expensive boilers, so speeds, stops [if any] and maximum loads [and hence the work to be done by the engine] would be calculated accordingly and the WTT drawn up within these parameters, with suitable margins for adverse conditions. Certainly you cannot look at range, in terms of water use, independently of any of these factors, including loading; nor can you for coal.
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue May 12, 2020 7:20 am

Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I have still yet to get a definitive answer as to the true range of these locos ... and the loading under this might be achieved


I doubt that you ever will. There are a lot of variables involved: gradients, loadings, how much [or how little] stopping and starting, the skill levels of both driver and fireman, the condition of the locomotive, how good [or otherwise] the coal is, the train speed required to meet the timetable, the weather, and probably others I haven't though of. No driver would want to risk running short of water, nor would his employers want to take any risks with their very expensive boilers, so speeds, stops [if any] and maximum loads [and hence the work to be done by the engine] would be calculated accordingly and the WTT drawn up within these parameters, with suitable margins for adverse conditions. Certainly you cannot look at range, in terms of water use, independently of any of these factors, including loading; nor can you for coal.


Thanks Noel ... I have gone into things deep enough to know a degree of this. However, bearing what you say in mind, I find it hard to believe that there were not general rules of thumb in place that meant staff new which workings would be appropriate and which would be inadvisable except in extremis. So for instance would the distance between water towers at Rowsley and Buxton/Chapel be fine say for a half cab 1f ... and if so under what circumstances (ie loadings/weight ... what sort of working) Talking to current drivers and getting reminiscences from past drivers suggests that Water was the first worry given tank capacity. Running between stations 'loco only' appears to have been fine/ a short maintenance train appears workable/perhaps the odd untimetabled working. You do see 1fs pulling longer trains on the main line. I alsohave some indication that 1fs shedded at Buxton carried out shunting duties at Millersdale where no water is available ... so again this would hint at a rule of thumb for range/capacity. I have some indication that the 0-4-4 1P tanks pulled the occasional passenger working from Buxton through to Derby ... so these distances were fine for their capacity with a shortish local train.

If only one could sit down with an experienced crew or two and get a propper feel for things ... I am sure they would have been able to give you chapter and verse.
Tim Lee

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Phil O » Tue May 12, 2020 8:08 am

Le Corbusier wrote:
Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I have still yet to get a definitive answer as to the true range of these locos ... and the loading under this might be achieved


I doubt that you ever will. There are a lot of variables involved: gradients, loadings, how much [or how little] stopping and starting, the skill levels of both driver and fireman, the condition of the locomotive, how good [or otherwise] the coal is, the train speed required to meet the timetable, the weather, and probably others I haven't though of. No driver would want to risk running short of water, nor would his employers want to take any risks with their very expensive boilers, so speeds, stops [if any] and maximum loads [and hence the work to be done by the engine] would be calculated accordingly and the WTT drawn up within these parameters, with suitable margins for adverse conditions. Certainly you cannot look at range, in terms of water use, independently of any of these factors, including loading; nor can you for coal.


Thanks Noel ... I have gone into things deep enough to know a degree of this. However, bearing what you say in mind, I find it hard to believe that there were not general rules of thumb in place that meant staff new which workings would be appropriate and which would be inadvisable except in extremis. So for instance would the distance between water towers at Rowsley and Buxton/Chapel be fine say for a half cab 1f ... and if so under what circumstances (ie loadings/weight ... what sort of working) Talking to current drivers and getting reminiscences from past drivers suggests that Water was the first worry given tank capacity. Running between stations 'loco only' appears to have been fine/ a short maintenance train appears workable/perhaps the odd untimetabled working. You do see 1fs pulling longer trains on the main line. I alsohave some indication that 1fs shedded at Buxton carried out shunting duties at Millersdale where no water is available ... so again this would hint at a rule of thumb for range/capacity. I have some indication that the 0-4-4 1P tanks pulled the occasional passenger working from Buxton through to Derby ... so these distances were fine for their capacity with a shortish local train.

If only one could sit down with an experienced crew or two and get a propper feel for things ... I am sure they would have been able to give you chapter and verse.


Not being au faix with the area, are there any stations between those places with water columns? If there is/was then there would be no problem with stopping to take water. The shed forman would only roster locos to those duties he would know would be suitable for the job.

Cheers

Phil

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue May 12, 2020 8:23 am

Phil O wrote:
Not being au faix with the area, are there any stations between those places with water columns? If there is/was then there would be no problem with stopping to take water. The shed forman would only roster locos to those duties he would know would be suitable for the job.

Cheers

Phil


No ... water facilities at Rowsley, Chapel-en-le-Frith and Buxton ... nothing in between.
Tim Lee

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Noel » Tue May 12, 2020 10:52 am

Le Corbusier wrote: I have some indication that the 0-4-4 1P tanks pulled the occasional passenger working from Buxton through to Derby ... so these distances were fine for their capacity with a shortish local train.


Le Corbusier wrote:No ... water facilities at Rowsley, Chapel-en-le-Frith and Buxton ... nothing in between.


Chapel is between Buxton and Manchester, so not relevant for the Buxton - Derby services. Matlock Bath is relevant to the Derby service, however, and had water according to photographs https://www.derbyshirewildlifetrust.org.uk/news/matlock-bath-gem-gets-huge-national-lottery-funding-boost http://www.constructionphotography.com/Details.aspx?ID=51378&TypeID=1. I don't know whether there were others.

Le Corbusier wrote: I also have some indication that 1fs shedded at Buxton carried out shunting duties at Millersdale where no water is available


The yard at Millers Dale is quite small, and in an under-populated area, so would not have seen a lot of traffic. It would not have had a loco allocated for shunting, which would be done by the local goods. I would expect that Buxton - Rowsley [circa 15-16 miles] and back, plus shunting on the way, would be well within the water capacity [circa 900 galls?] of a 1F tank, with a refill at Rowsley if needed.

This might interest you if you haven't already seen it https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150263-how-far-does-your-loco-run-on-its-coal-and-water-capacity/
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Noel

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue May 12, 2020 10:59 am

Thanks for the welcome back folks,

Sorry I have not been posting for a while and there is so much that is new on the Forum, I must find time to go and explore. I have been following your series Terry in the S4News - all really useful to know. Tim I know you have been wondering about how far locos (especially tank locos) were able to travel before needing / taking water and perhaps coal. I might have some idea based on the Wemyss system, and the Buckhaven line, so I will come back to that shortly when I am covering the bunker wagons. The info I have will take up quite a bit of space, but may be helpful.

As to painting using gloves I refer you to

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=886

I was wondering what to do about covering the painting of the locos, but thought that it is pretty well covered elsewhere, however it has been suggested to me that for the sake of completeness I might do a bit more on it at the end of the 2nd section, where I finished on the painting of the chassis, so I will do something there, but not immediately, it is either that or do a separate section on painting and weathering - a part 5 which might be more appropriate. I still have another J94 to paint and do the transfers on, so will photograph that as it goes through the shops.

The little Nielson piano tank is a lovely little engine, I think that the blue would look good with some black and white lining as you say. I have one based on a kit that DJH produced in white metal many years ago - not as detailed as Chris's kit which is lovely. I look forward to seeing how your engine comes out. One thing I have never found out was whether it was common practice on these tanks to paint the top of the tank in the body colour or paint it black. My one has run on several layouts and was one of the first three locos I supplied for using on Burntisland right at the beginning. The other original locomotive was John Wall's lovely "Diver" all of which have run many miles now without modification, except one and that was for the Nielson,

L1110624.JPG
Here we see the little Nielson sitting in the West Yard next to the power station on a ballast train a small engine like this adds to the sense of space on a large layout like Burntisland. The large engine on the left is one of the Hurst locomotives that operate on the line.


In the early days of Burntisland the loco kept stopping for no apparent reason and it was picking up on all four wheels correctly and had been a sweet runner on other peoples railways and my own. It really had me puzzled. :!: Turned out the wheelbase was exactly the same distance as pairs of chairs and if you had two pairs where the chairs stuck up to high on their inside edges they lifted the engine up on that side of the track and being lifted by the flanges to this new elevation the wheels no longer made electrical contact! :o

The solution was to sand down the chairs and I also added a shunter's truck with additional pickups connecting through to the engine, so it is now a go anywhere engine. The engine was painted in a fictitious livery with NBR on the tanks which was not correct for the period as goods engines had the company name on the plate up until after the period we model (1883). The engine is probably going to be re-worked for the layout and no longer in an NB livery - I am thinking of doing it in one of the contractor's liveries for the time as there was a shale works being constructed in the area at about the 1883 date and it would give a different dimension to the layout.

I mention this as your loco is liable to be of the same wheelbase and may exhibit the same tendency, it might just save some hours of pondering.The chairs on Burntisland were added as a cosmetic chair and cut in two half's and stuck on,this the tendency of them to be a bit high here and there. Another possible remedy, but one I decided against was to take down the flange a tiny amount - not really to be recommended as It may effect the running in other ways unless you were really competent using a lathe. In the early days of all this I used Romford wheels turned down to a new profile and had about a 75% success rate - we are talking a long time ago now - prehistoric in S4 terms! :)

I note the other additional material coming in which is all welcome, about working of the tanks and I will try to help later today if I get the time Tim. I will add it here if you do not mind as it will be relevant to the working on my layout and just what I am building in the way of engines and their use, dimensions, colouration structure, etc. and you might be able to apply that to your own railway.

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby DougN » Tue May 12, 2020 11:40 am

. Thanks for the heads up on the chair front. My layout has functional chairs and The other 2 layouts here in Melbourne I think are either functional or rivet and ply. So I will keep an eye out for the problem. I have to purchase a Bob Moore lining pen as suggested by one of our group. He said the first time he looked at it and said it can't work... tried it and said I'll take one! He is very happy with it and has done some lovely work. I haven't tried lining anything much yet but are very keen to learn!
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue May 12, 2020 1:40 pm

Hi Doug, :)

I have one of these pens and they are very good in certain situations, but must be kept scrupulously clean. I will probably cover the use of one, but at a later date - I will be interested in how you get on with it and just what paint/ink you decide to use and the results you get. I have not used it on recent locomotives as only one has lining and I used transfers on it as it so happens. I do have some freehand stuff to put on to the waggons and will be using it for that.

Allan :)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue May 12, 2020 4:51 pm

Tim,
I have been doing some research on the water capacity etc.of the engines working on the Wemyss line and other engines in the locality and their capacity. It might be best to start with the route and to understand that then the gradients encountered, the haulage capacity and the water and coal capacity of suitable engines for the line, then other considerations. Much of this is taken from Allan Brotchie's lovely book on the Wemyss Private Railway, which I highly recommend as an excellent read and which I would not like to be without as it is an absolute mine of information for the modeller.

Scott's Road to Wellesley.jpg
Route Map - Scott's Road to Wellesley


The route described in all the literature runs from just beyond Scott's Road in the North to the Wellesley Colliery in the South which I have always thought strange as it really travels more West to East, but there must be precedent for this to be the formal description and maybe applies to all lines - something I have never found an answer to. I have marked the three places that water was available on the line. Plunks Junction only had water "In Emergency"

All engines were watered at Scott's Road, both NCB and Wemyss - each of which had access from their tracks to a large water tank made up from two torpedo tanks. Unfortunately I do not have a description of what was available at Plunks - except it is described as a water column and that it should only be used for emergencies. The facility at the Methil end was in the main yard and had 3 torpedo tanks and belonged to the NCB during the 1950's/60's. The whole system had belonged to Wemyss prior to Nationalisation of the Collieries. Access to the Methil Yard for an engine required a reversal after unloading the coal for the Washer if water was needed. The length of the railway from Scott's Road to Wellesley's watering point was 5.5 miles.

My understanding is that the Barclay tanks could do a journey out and back on one fill if necessary.

The original locomotives working the line were built by NB Loco and were fairly brutal in their appearance and were built to be able to haul 600 Tons on the line. They were a saddle tank design, one of them had its saddle tank extended as they must have not had quite enough capacity. The second one was not extended as the newer large Barclay locomotives came in.

Number 16 was the prototype Barclay engine for the line and had a coal capacity of approx 2.5 tons and could carry 1,200 gallons of water in the tanks. When the other Barclays came into service they were altered in a number of ways and had a slightly larger capacity tank holding 1,300 gallons. There were no other engines on the Wemyss main line until the introduction of some J94's which had a water capacity of 1,200 gallons and carried 2.25 tons of coal. The Barclays were 160lbs/sq in. The J94's were 170lbs/sq in. and slightly higher tractive effort and both very capable of doing much the same work. Other locomotives were experimented with before the J94's - which is interesting, one was even bought and that was a Caley locomotive, but it had problems running on the main line as it had a far longer wheelbase and was a bit short in water capacity - it was soon demoted to shunting duties at either end of the line - so it will operate as my pilot engine at Scott's Road.

In 1953 the train load going from Scott's Road loaded could be up to a maximum of 35 loaded 12T (Approx 600Tons) wagons with the engine working on its own. (Despite a rule book note stating 30). There was quite a lift out of Scott's Road with more gradual upwards gradients until Plunks Junction - from there down to the Wellesley every 4th waggon had to have its brakes pinned down for the descent with additional braking from the guard's van - mainly Midland types incidentally 12T but 16T vans were available. Speed going down was not to exceed 5MPH on this section 30MPH was the limit for the line overall. There are no comments about how such a weight of train was dealt with on its way down except I assume they added even more braking on the waggons. Often the shunters whose job it was to apply this braking could be seen travelling in one of the rear trucks, in fact trains often ran without any brake van at all if they were made up of shorter rakes again with men travelling in wagons towards the rear of the train.

So not too much effort except the initial lift out from Scott's Road, but a bit of a climb up from Sea level on the way back especially towards Plunks Junction often with waggons that were loaded with dross (Wet fine coal from the washer) this was used as fuel to run the steam engines at the pits for the winding gear etc. Depending on turn round time and weather conditions you can see why they thought it prudent to have water available at Plunks in emergency and also when number 16 was tried out they decided to enlarge the water capacity and also reduce the designed theoretical maximum load for normal working down to 35 from 40 waggons - I have a feeling that the gradient going down to the Wellesley must have prayed on the authorities minds.

Although large train loads could be seen from time to time on the line the average train length tended to be well within the bounds.



As far as the NCB side of it was, they had access to water at Scott's Road as mentioned but also had access to water at all of the collieries, but most of their work was in shunting colliery sidings and transfer traffic from the pits to Scott's Road, so they would have no water worries one would imagine from that point of view.There was a very steep climb up from the Michael pit up to Scott's Road which required banking even of very short trains as the track was also very tightly curved in certain sections. So quite a lot of banking at Scott's Road then. HerMMMMMMph could be tricky!

There were recorded examples of 45 waggons going in this direction and requiring banking out of Scott's Road Yard which must have been spectacular to watch. I am not sure how far towards Punks the banker would go I am assuming it was there just for the initial lift up to get the train up and over the Buckhaven branch and a few hundred yards beyond.

I am sure there must be some kind of formula we can come up with - I must ask my friend Chris Coles and see if we can work one out.

wprc12 (2).jpg
Barclay engine sitting at Scott's Road sidings on the Wemyss side of the yard.
wprc12 (2).jpg (107.78 KiB) Viewed 965 times


This can only be part one of this at the moment Tim but I promise I will try to add more in my next response.
Allan :)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue May 12, 2020 8:30 pm

Hi Tim, :)
this is like part 2 to your request to perhaps understand a bit more about such things. Most companies had load books which covered the maximum loads allowed over various routes by different locomotives and these also included other information regarding limitations over certain bridges etc. Unfortunately I do not have a Midland one and not even sure if the company had such a thing in its day. If the locomotives had some power classification then the chances were that they did, for example a 2F classification would include a number of different engines in that particular power class. I once went to a very interesting meeting in Carlisle where the main speaker was Bob Essery who talked about taking a freight up to Carlisle in the days of the Midland Railway using the small locomotives of the time and yet moving long heavy trains. He had been a fireman it the time but made it clear just how expert the crew had to be to make the passage successfully. The nurturing of water and steam when very near the load limit and in deteriorating weather or light. How on a long train different parts of the train would be behaving in different ways and how important it was to keep that in mind when working them.

On to my second example. I was fortunate lately to be handed a copy of a guard's book for the Buckhaven/Methil branch line in the pre-WW1 period. which I am also modelling as part of the scene as it ran right past the wagon works. I thought it worth modelling as it would allow the BR stock to be seen alongside the Wemyss and NCB engines. What was interesting about the information in the book was the insight it brought to the working of the trains on the branch which had a similar profile to the Wemyss line although the gradients were much more gradual except for the section between Buckhaven and Methil station with a ruling gradient of 1in 60. The trains were passenger trains of 5 carriages plus occasionally a couple of fish trucks/horse boxes. The distance from Methil station up to Thornton Junction was about 9/10 miles and the train worked most times by a small NBR 0-6-0 tank locomotive (LNER J82) number 161.

The locomotive took water at Methil and Thornton - there were no other places to pick up that I am aware of, although at both ends of the line there were alternative arrangements if necessary. These lovely little engines probably had about the same coal and water capacity as the little Midland locomotive you are considering. There was enough time in the timetable for the engine to go across to the shed at Thornton to pick up coal if necessary, so the limited coal capacity was not too much of a problem. This little engine I would suggest was much the same in capacity and capability as yours. I can give you a copy of the article I wrote up in the NBSG Journal if you are interested as it includes quite an insight as to Victorian time keeping over a Christmas period. The little engine was more than capable of working the timetable, minutes lost were more down to station working or late running of main line trains. Unfortunately the guard did not record the weather over the period.

Most engines had limits written against them, for example the furthest a V1/V3 tank was allowed to travel on an out and back from Waverley Station, Edinburgh was Leven on the East of Fife line I saw many of these on a running in turn of Haymarket shed. The limitation was for coal rather than water I had better mention. Water could always be picked up on route. There were less columns set up for passenger locos than for freight locos where there were extras often at the end of long loops where freight trains could be held up during the working of the traffic, sometimes sitting for protracted periods - especially during the war. I know this is by no means definitive, but might give you a bit more reassurance as to how your locomotive might cope with the route.

Allan :)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue May 12, 2020 10:08 pm

Thanks for taking the time to do this .... much appreciated :thumb I shall have to spend a little time digesting. ;)
Tim Lee

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Neil Smith
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Neil Smith » Tue May 12, 2020 11:00 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Thanks for taking the time to do this .... much appreciated :thumb I shall have to spend a little time digesting. ;)


Hi Tim

Is it worth trying to get some information from one of the heritage lines that have hosted 41708? It's run at both Llangollen and Keighley amongst others and both these have stiff gradients over several miles. Someone may remember how it was operated regarding the necessity of visits to a water column. Some lines like to fill up at every column because its good for the photos, but others are happy to run on till you need to replenish the tanks. I know the speeds are lower than the mainline equally the grades are steeper. It might give you an idea of how many trips they could manage before the tanks were getting close to empty?

All the best

Neil

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed May 13, 2020 6:28 am

Hi Neil,
What a very good idea, I hadn't realised that the engine was still running! However most of the WPR fleet are also still in existence and a few of them are operable. One of the J94's that were frequently working at Scott's Road on the NCB side has been working regularly at Bo'ness over the last couple of years. I must try to find out its range, someone will know.

DSC05284.JPG
Number 19 taken last year at Boness


I have a whole load of detail photographs of this engine which I will publish here when we get around to looking at the model. I have been corresponding with a few friends about dummy internal valve gear and may just fit this engine with it as that is something I have not covered on the thread. Something which shows up in this photo is a difference of colour between the two NCB locomotives. I also have photos of 19 taken years ago fully lined out in another NCB livery. You can never be absolutely sure if liveries on modern lines are correct, or details for that matter, one of the Barclay locos No.17 was converted to be able to be driven from the opposite side and No.20 which is at Bo'ness and being restored at the moment,has vacuum brake pipes etc.

One piece of information I require myself is a photograph of one of the large Barclay locos taken from above showing the arrangement of piping (which seems unusually complicated - (unless you are doing a BR standard loco) connected to the whistle/hooter. At the moment I just have a couple of photos taken from ground level and it is information that is difficult to see from there. As a temporary measure I may just have to fit a hooter. Anyone out there have such a shot? :?:

Allan :)

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Noel
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Noel » Wed May 13, 2020 2:16 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Is it worth trying to get some information from one of the heritage lines that have hosted 41708? It's run at both Llangollen and Keighley amongst others and both these have stiff gradients over several miles. Someone may remember how it was operated regarding the necessity of visits to a water column. Some lines like to fill up at every column because its good for the photos, but others are happy to run on till you need to replenish the tanks. I know the speeds are lower than the mainline equally the grades are steeper. It might give you an idea of how many trips they could manage before the tanks were getting close to empty?


Heritage lines may not be too good a guide, as the environment in which they work is very different from the steam era. Loads are, on the whole, lower, as are speed limits, generally no more than 25 mph, albeit a steam era freight working up a serious gradient with a maximum load would probably not achieve even that, even if assisted. Also, preserved lines' loco crews have far less need to allow for unexpected contingencies than a steam era crew did; but no crew would want to take risks with the water supply to their boiler, as insufficient water in the boiler will damage it at best, and having to dump the fire to avoid this, thus immobilising the loco and blocking the line for a prolonged period, is not much better. Either would be regarded as serious incompetence by the authorities, while a damaged boiler would be very expensive for a heritage line. Steam loco water gauges are not exactly precision equipment, incidentally.

Steamraiser of this Forum may be able to say more, as he has, I think, fired the 1F on the Avon Valley Railway.
Regards
Noel

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Neil Smith
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Neil Smith » Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 pm

Agreed its not a perfect comparison Noel, but that's why I suggested Llan or KWVR: the pull is sharp, the loadings are not light (and a few Mark 1s put more on the drawbar than a few 4 wheelers), plus both lines don't tend to potter around... I have been a heritage Fireman for over 20 years, and have fired at both lines as a guest.
No we wouldn't want to run dry and neither would a Midland crew in the era Tim is interested in.
The trouble is, unless someone comes up with Rowsley shed footplate memoir, heritage rail experience with the Half Cab is the closest we can get, and at least with this particular engine there IS that heritage line experience.
All the best
Neil

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed May 13, 2020 7:47 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Agreed its not a perfect comparison Noel, but that's why I suggested Llan or KWVR: the pull is sharp, the loadings are not light (and a few Mark 1s put more on the drawbar than a few 4 wheelers), plus both lines don't tend to potter around... I have been a heritage Fireman for over 20 years, and have fired at both lines as a guest.
No we wouldn't want to run dry and neither would a Midland crew in the era Tim is interested in.
The trouble is, unless someone comes up with Rowsley shed footplate memoir, heritage rail experience with the Half Cab is the closest we can get, and at least with this particular engine there IS that heritage line experience.
All the best
Neil


Currently the half cab is at Barrowhill Roundhouse... I have had a little correspondence with the manager who kindly took a few photos of the loco for me. I have dropped him a line to see if he can add anything to our ruminations. The thing I am intrigued by is the presence of a half cab up the line from Rowsley at Bakewell which is recorded in a period photo. Added to this is a suggestion from Glynn Waite (of Rowsley Shed) that he recalled they were used for small maintenace trains to deliver gangs to more remote locations up the line along with ballast etc.

Now I know that the only water that was available was at Buxton and Chapel when heading north from Rowsley .... so I was wondering if such a journey might be realistic for a halfcab on a relatively light and un-timetabled working .... or if a run up to Bakewell was about the limit of it. I was also wondering what sort of untimetabled workings for such a loco there might be, given that their predominant use was for shunting .... what was it doing in the siding at Bakewell?
88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell.jpg
Tim Lee

bécasse
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby bécasse » Wed May 13, 2020 9:18 pm

It is obviously being used to shunt the wagons loaded with (presumably) ballast into and out of the platform road where the gangers are working, the road having to be cleared regularly to allow booked trains to pass, possessions and even slw being rare events pre-nationalisation.

If the loco ran there, and back, light engine and only shunted sporadically, its water supply would probably have lasted a good few hours especially as the crew would have been only too well aware of the need to conserve every precious drop. It is also possible that it worked to and/or from the site attached to another, presumably goods, train; with the train engine doing most of the work water consumption would have been minimal.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu May 14, 2020 6:33 am

bécasse wrote:If the loco ran there, and back, light engine and only shunted sporadically, its water supply would probably have lasted a good few hours especially as the crew would have been only too well aware of the need to conserve every precious drop. It is also possible that it worked to and/or from the site attached to another, presumably goods, train; with the train engine doing most of the work water consumption would have been minimal.


I don't want to hijack this thread any more by going over old ground ... see here viewtopic.php?p=63195#p63195 and forward...... I was mainly interested in Allan's specific thoughts on his prototype - given his knowledge and research into the Wemys line. I was also interested in any thoughts that might emerge as to alternative reasons a half cab might run up the line beyond ballast etc - but that was perhaps a bit hopeful. Interested in the attached loco thought. :thumb
Tim Lee

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Neil Smith
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 4

Postby Neil Smith » Thu May 14, 2020 9:53 am

Le Corbusier wrote:I don't want to hijack this thread any more by going over old ground ... see here viewtopic.php?p=63195#p63195 and forward...... I was mainly interested in Allan's specific thoughts on his prototype - given his knowledge and research into the Wemys line. I was also interested in any thoughts that might emerge as to alternative reasons a half cab might run up the line beyond ballast etc - but that was perhaps a bit hopeful. Interested in the attached loco thought. :thumb


One further thought Tim without further highjacking. You say in your own thread that the critical distance here is 17 miles between Rowsley and Buxton. Even a heavy handed crew with a small loco like this would struggle to consume more than one ton of coal covering that distance with a bit of shunting involved? So I cannot see how they would run out of coal on that run (but someone please correct me if I am wrong), and unless water capacity is minute (sorry can't find a tank capacity figure immediately) it ought to make it on that unless hours are spent shunting (which wasn't the case, because time=money, etc.). To give a modern day comparison, 17 miles is a round trip and a half at Keighley, and at Swanage 41708 was running the 6 mile round trip to Harman's Cross (no Corfe in those days) so presumably doing 12 or 24 miles between water stops.

All the best

Neil


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