Coreless Motor Database

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High Level Kits
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Coreless Motor Database

Postby High Level Kits » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:10 pm

High level are now selling two sizes of coreless motors, made to our own specification and suitable for use in 4mm scale locos. We may expand this range with additional sizes for larger locos...

There’s some talk about some coreless motors not behaving very well with certain controllers, in particular, early feedback types.

I would be interested to know your experiences with RG4s, or any other types of coreless motors, and which specific controllers they seem to have a problem, or, run well with. Hopefully, I’ll be able to create a database for the website whihc will assist with motor choice.

Nothing too technical, but makes and models would be very helpful...

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby stephenfreeman » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:15 pm

As far as Portescaps were concerned I think it was always the 1219s, that were the most fragile.
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
https://www.tracknsignals.co.uk

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zebedeesknees
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby zebedeesknees » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:44 pm

High Level Kits wrote:There’s some talk about some coreless motors not behaving very well with certain controllers, in particular, early feedback types.


I recall that the problem was with controllers that used a low frequency pwm, particularly when starting, where the low mass of the windings of a coreless motor allowed the armature to stop between pulses. This meant that the windings took a starting surge of current many times a second, to the detriment of brush survival. I think it was Stewart Hine who identified the issue.

A solution was to use pure DC controlled by resistance like the old H&M type controllers, or if possible, set your controller to 'smooth' or high frequency pwm. This should be possible with the cvs available with DCC chips, I wouldn't know.

It is certainly possible with the DT radio receivers, though they come with a default high frequency anyway, typically 16KHz, which will do no harm to a coreless motor.

I wonder, how many modellers on here know what their controller is doing?

Ted.

Philip Hall
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:00 pm

I have just converted an 00 Works LSWR D15 4-4-0 to EM, and first of all tested it on the reduced feedback AMR handheld controller I use in the workshop. It ran appallingly so I started to wonder what I had taken on - until I read the instructions (!) and found out that it was fitted with a coreless motor. I switched to a Modelex handheld and it ran like a dream, wonderful start and it just glided along. Further investigation revealed a small motor and a very nice set of straight cut gears. Remembering the infamous Portescap whine, I was also pleased that it was virtually silent.

I have another D15 to do next week, and that will be used on DCC (not by me, I just put the wiring in under guidance!) so I might be able to report how that pans out. I’ll also have a look at the motor to identify what exactly it is.

I think it was Roy Jackson who first recommended Modelex to me, and I will be investing in another sometime. Certainly it gives good results with most of the other engines I have had here over the years. Sometimes the AMR gives a slightly better start, but the Modelex is quieter.

The odd thing is that I have, years ago, built several engines with a 1616 Portescap, and they all ran well on the AMR. Come to that, they weren’t that fussy about controllers.

Hope some of this helps...

Philip

High Level Kits
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby High Level Kits » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:28 pm

Thanks,

The database, if I can get sufficient info, I had hoped would be a simple affair, maybe two lists, one for controllers that work with coreless and one for those that don't.

So, Modelex goes in the yes colum and but AMR works with some, but not all?...

Philip Hall
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:33 pm

Chris, I think you can safely add a Gaugemaster handheld (the cream, non feedback one, definitely not the black feedback one) to the yes list. I might have one, not sure. I’ll test the D15 on a handheld Pentroller later. I guess a Pictroller would also be OK, but no experience here.

Philip

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Will L
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Will L » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:18 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:
High Level Kits wrote:There’s some talk about some coreless motors not behaving very well with certain controllers, in particular, early feedback types.


I recall that the problem was with controllers that used a low frequency pwm, particularly when starting, where the low mass of the windings of a coreless motor allowed the armature to stop between pulses. This meant that the windings took a starting surge of current many times a second, to the detriment of brush survival. I think it was Stewart Hine who identified the issue. ...


The problem was with the ECM controlers (Compspeed) which used relatively low frequency pulses. These aren't now available so its only those of us which still have them about who need worry about it.

Philip Hall
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:50 pm

Hi Chris,

I have just carried out some tests on the D15 with the coreless motor, and here are the results:

Modelex - ok
Gaugemaster Model W (cream case) - ok
Gaugemaster panel mount (very old so see comment below) - ok
Pentroller hand held - ok on 1219 & 1616/24 setting
Pentroller panel mount - ok but not as good as hand held

AMR and Gaugemaster (black case) - NOT ok

It has been pointed out to me that many of these controllers we have all had for donkeys’ years, and current examples may not have the same characteristics even though the case may be the same. So it might be best to check out current examples of the appropriate ones - my Modelex is about seven years old and the latest Gaugemaster about two.

The same might apply to motors; the ones you have may not perform the same as the one in the engine I tested. I’ve included a picture of that motor; as you will see there are no markings on it but it measures 19.5mm x 12mm.

There were three ancient controllers (Scalespeed, Digitol 4 & H&M Powermaster) that I didn’t test because they were so old and not of current interest.

Hope this is of some use.

Philip

E05A1C5A-6BFB-44FF-9D81-27777F2DF789.jpeg

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Horsetan
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Horsetan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:06 am

stephenfreeman wrote:As far as Portescaps were concerned I think it was always the 1219s, that were the most fragile.


The 1219 was a Faulhaber rather than an Escap product.

There are quite a lot of Faulhaber sizes available now - also Maxons; the good thing is that the fixing centres appear standardised, so you can swap one for a different make or size.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Tim V
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Tim V » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:07 am

A small point, but most quality DCC chips can be set up for coreless work.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

High Level Kits
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby High Level Kits » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:49 am

Philip, thanks for getting the ball rolling.

Do you know of the ones you've listed, which are feedback type?...

Chris.

Philip Hall
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:57 pm

Chris, all the ones that were ok are, as far as I know, non - feedback. Or at least have a circuit that doesn’t give a coreless motor the jitters. The two Pentrollers have a selector switch for 1219 or 1616/24 motors, and another setting for ‘iron cored’ motors, as Stewart Hine called them, and I think that setting had feedback of a sort.

The AMR & black Gaugemaster controllers have feedback.

The only two currently available are the Modelex and cream model W Gaugemaster. There is also the Pictroller, a successor to the Pentroller, but I tested one a long time ago and wasn’t impressed with the control it gave. Nothing to do with coreless motors or feedback, just not impressed.

Philip

IANATEXTON
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Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby IANATEXTON » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:56 am

Chris
My best controller for coreless motors is a Kent Panel Controls model KFS. This can be operated with feedback switch on, or switched off for coreless motors. I have locos fitted with the various sizes of motors previously available, including the 1219.

Unfortunately these controllers are not available any more - I understand that the owner of Kent Panel Controls died in a motorway accident.

I also use the non-feedback (cream) Gaugemaster mentioned by Philip, but prefer the Kent Panel Controls model.

Kind regards
Ian
Attachments
KPC1.jpg
KPC2.jpg

High Level Kits
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby High Level Kits » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:07 am

Thanks for all the input up to now. I'm not chipping in much because I'm still gathering info.

One question on my mind is ‘are there any differnces between the way various makes/models coreless motors react to the controllers. It would be convenient be able to say, ‘if it works with an RG4 then you should be OK with a High Level Coreless but is this the case?...

Anyone who’s bought one of our coreless, 1219 or 1320 please pipe up and say how it runs, and what you’re using it with?...

High Level Kits
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:37 am

Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby High Level Kits » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:33 am

IANATEXTON wrote:Chris
My best controller for coreless motors is a Kent Panel Controls model KFS. This can be operated with feedback switch on, or switched off for coreless motors. I have locos fitted with the various sizes of motors previously available, including the 1219.

Unfortunately these controllers are not available any more - I understand that the owner of Kent Panel Controls died in a motorway accident.

I also use the non-feedback (cream) Gaugemaster mentioned by Philip, but prefer the Kent Panel Controls model.

Kind regards
Ian


Ian, where is the on/off switch for the feeedback on your Kent controller?

IANATEXTON
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: Coreless Motor Database

Postby IANATEXTON » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:49 am

Hi Chris,

It is a push button on the top of the controller.

Unfortunately it is not visible on either of the pictures that I posted.

Regards
Ian


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