Funky 3 way

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
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jim s-w
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Funky 3 way

Postby jim s-w » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:29 pm

Found this picture of an unusual 3 way at lifford.

B12464F4-691F-450C-81D4-0B12C1376B79.jpeg


Building it wouldn’t be too difficult but how would you attach the blades to point motors? My thought would be to switch from the other end via a pivot.

Thoughts?

garethashenden
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby garethashenden » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:08 pm

I may be completely off here.
The whole thing has four switch blades right? Two long ones and two short ones? I think that attaching one long blade and the opposite short blade to the same tiebar would work. I can’t see any other way of doing it unless you have four individually controlled blades, but there are only two levers on the lever frame, so I don’t think that’s how it was done.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:31 pm

Indeed that is correct, the problem for modelling is getting a satisfactory connection to the short blade that does not obstruct the long blade.
Tony Wilkins has two sets on Green St but I don't know how he did his, I have one set but it does give me trouble and really needs a better arrangement.
The real thing generally has the tiebar from the short blade passing through a hole in the web of the long blade. Could be worth a try if you are good at tiny things. :)
The set a Lifford would be a standard Midland design, photos show them with lots of different curvatures to the roads.
The original P4 society templates included two versions.
Regards

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jim s-w
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby jim s-w » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:46 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Indeed that is correct, the problem for modelling is getting a satisfactory connection to the short blade that does not obstruct the long blade.


That's exactly it Keith

PeteT
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby PeteT » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:12 am

It is effectively a curved 3 throw turnout, Martin has a useful drawing on the Templot page:

http://templot.com/companion/3_way_tandem_turnouts.php

While he says it will be forthcoming in Templot, a way to work it isn't mentioned!

Any good ideas would be useful, as one of my potential future options is based on Barnoldswick. This either means making one work or substituting it for a tandem turnout which would be (I suspect) easier, and more applicable to future future options I have in mind...

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/ba ... ex14.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/ba ... ex15.shtml

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Hardwicke
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:29 pm

Built a straight one on Forge Mill Sidings. On the real thing the tie bar goes through a hole in the switch blade. There's one at Butterley.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

rick1290
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby rick1290 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:23 pm

sorry for the time lapse, but if you are going to do Barlick accurately, you will also have to do 2 trap rail/points, within a point, on a siding opposite the 3 way point.
The Midland used them if tight for space and couldn't fit in a normal trap point to protect the running line.
You can see it if you look carefully in the pictures in Midland record number 7 about Barnoldswick on page 39.
Bob Essery wrongly identified the use of the small ground frame shown.
Cheers,
Rick

PeteT
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby PeteT » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks Rick,

Yes, I see them, quite a feature. Also visible on this photo:

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/ba ... dex8.shtml

I don't think Bob Essery does wrong identify the ground frame.

One question is how they were operated? I know that good line across the diamond needed the token, so was it then one lever each for the point feeding across the diamond from the loop, and 1 for each of the 2 traps independently, with the point itself on a hand lever (which can be seen in the photos)?

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Noel
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby Noel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:23 pm

PeteT wrote:I know that good line across the diamond needed the token,

To release the g/f.
PeteT wrote:so was it then one lever each for the point feeding across the diamond from the loop, and 1 for each of the 2 traps independently,

I would have thought that the traps would be operated together; the crew can then shunt between the two sidings by means of the hand lever. In terms of the protection of the 'main line' there is no apparent difference between the two sidings and nothing to be gained by making the traps independently operated, which would require another lever in the g/f and a second rodding run. I don't know about Midland practice, but with only short rodding runs, it would presumably be possible to operate the point and the traps from the same lever, saving levers, locking complications and maintenance.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/barnoldswick/index15.shtml gives another view of the g/f. Unfortunately, neither photo shows the rodding runs sufficiently well to let us see how many there are to the traps.
Noel

rick1290
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby rick1290 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:35 pm

From what I can work out from info available, the crossing gates and bar signal are independent to the ground frame.
As Noel said, the ground frame protects the running line from conflicting moves.
If locked in via the ground frame another train can run up and down the branch while shunting takes place.
My understanding is the tablet would release the locking lever in the frame, then one lever works the two crossover points and the other controls the point through the diamond and the two trap points, making three levers in total.
All other points can be hand thrown, as no conflicting movements can happen.
I'm not a Midland expert, so would quite happily be corrected.
The ground frame at the Barnoldswick Jct. end would need a similar arrangement, for running round procedures.
Cheers,
Rick

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Noel
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:28 pm

rick1290 wrote:If locked in via the ground frame another train can run up and down the branch while shunting takes place.My understanding is the tablet would release the locking lever in the frame,

If the g/f is unlocked by the tablet, token or staff, then it would be locked in the frame until work is over and all levers returned to normal. It would then have to be returned to the other end of the section by the departing train before another train could be given authority to enter the section. To have more than one train in the station would require a block post at the station to control acceptance of trains.
Noel

rick1290
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby rick1290 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Noel,
Normally I would agree with you but those two pesky words " Sectional Appendix" creep into the subject.
In it's early days, the branch was worked under the train staff and ticket, with the station master at Barnoldswick being one of the designated people to receive it.
As I understand things, a train could be sent through to Barnoldswick, with only the ticket, then when the station master had cancelled the ticket, he could authorise another train to be sent through.
Maybe the lever frame was locked with a good old fashioned padlock and key kept by the station master?
In later days, it was one engine working, so 2 locos would go coupled together on a train, one detached and locked in the sidings to shunt.
The staff was required to unlock the frame in those circumstances
Trains could then run as normal.
After looking at the pictures with my biggest magnification glasses, and reading the captions again I think I have worked it out.
The point across the diamond and the trap points within the far point are one lever, only the single point at the other end of the 3 throw is worked from the lever frame. Therefore no conflicting movement with the running line can happen.
The 3 throw is worked by hand levers, ( as Bob Essery quite rightly said).
The bar stop signal ( which I assume is the end of the section) is there to protect the crossing and both worked locally with no interlocking.
I think that's about right, but please correct me if wrong. Best way to learn, I think.
Should this be in signals or prototype practices, I wonder. :)
Cheers,
Rick

PeteT
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby PeteT » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:27 pm

This doesn't help answer the question of 'how', but there is a photo caption in 'The Skipton-Colne Railway and the Barnoldswick Branch' by Donald Binns, page 48. The photo is of an Ivatt 2 2-6-0 and Johnson 1P 0-4-4 at the head of a single push pull fitted brake coach.

'This working was necessitated by one engine in steam only being allowed on the branch when a train was proceeding from Barnoldswick to Earby, or as in this case two locomotives could be coupled together. The 2-6-0 had been working the branch during the morning until arrival of the 0-4-4T from Skipton about mid-day, when the 2-6-0 was on shunting duties at Barnoldswick. On arrival at Earby the Ivatt 2-6-0 worked a goods train. On week-days the 2-6-0 was to be seen on the other end of the coach and the combinatiom of 2-6-0, coach, 0-4-4T proceeded to Barnoldswick junction at which point the 2-6-0 carried on toEarby and the 0-4-4T and coach returned to Barnoldwick.'

So there are two things going on here. Firstly the 2-6-0 got to Barnoldwick on a freight before locking in. On weekends they both needed to be back at Earby at the same time so went together. Whatever means the 2-6-0 used to get to Barnoldswick it must have been able to open the ground frame to access the loop and carry out the shunt.

However during the week when the 2-6-0 needed to leave first they went together as far as the junction and the passenger train returned. Was this just seen as less faff than swapping the 0-4-4 and coach into the loop? Or were ticket only operations only valid for freight, but the token/staff required at the Earby end of the branch for unlocking?

Edited to add that I expect this practice finished by the mid 1950s (unfortunately for me!) when the passenger service was reduced.

(Earby - Barnoldswick was 2.75 miles, I'm not sure how far it was to Barnoldswick junction off hand). From the timetables Earby - jct was 2 minutes and jct - Barnoldwick was 5 minutes). Edit 2 - Junction to Barnoldswick was 1 mile 64 chains.

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Noel
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:34 pm

It is possible to work out legal ways of doing this. It assumes the use of a staff [normal even with OIS], and the g/f nearest the junction being locked by the staff, but the other g/f, by the crossing, only having the crossover locked by the staff, or the two sidings reached via the diamond only being shunted when the staff was present. Auto-trains for the passenger service makes it easier, but is not essential. Barnoldswick Junction was a block post, so we only need to look at the branch itself.

The shunting engine could work in attached to a passenger train in the same way it works out, and the goods traffic is worked early morning or late afternoon by a train with the staff, between passenger trains, but presumably without any shunting being done at that time. Alternatively it arrived on a double headed goods train. Either way, the shunting loco has to have worked in with another loco, although it is possible that it worked in a goods train or as a light engine, and the staff was returned to the junction by a porter on a bike. This seems less likely to me, and leaves the GBV for later collection. The outbound working only going to the Junction, where there is no station, means that this trip carried no passengers and was purely for the purpose of getting the shunting loco off the branch. I think that a WTT is probably needed to resolve this.

PeteT wrote:This working was necessitated by one engine in steam only being allowed on the branch when a train was proceeding from Barnoldswick to Earby

OIS would have applied in both directions. Companies operating single lines with a passenger service OIS were required by the BoT to sign a formal undertaking that only one engine, or two coupled together, would be on the single line at one time. This was definitely not negotiable, and would mean that the shunting engine had to be unable to access the running line without the staff. It's not clear to me whether the reference to staff and ticket is from before or after the 1889 Act, but since the line had a passenger service, the full set of rules would have applied to all trains post-1889. Relaxations were only possible where the line was freight only and worked as a long siding.
Noel

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Funky 3 way

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:40 am

The OIS regulations must have been pretty strict even on goods-only lines. I recently re-read an article on the working of the Glasson Dock and St Georges Quay branches from Lancaster: these were parallel, single-track branches from Lancaster no.4 box down to the lower reaches of the Lune, and only the longer, Glasson-Dock line had a passenger service. The Quay branch had an assigned shunting pilot, and if a second engine was needed to work a train up to Lancaster, then the pilot had to go up to the junction and come back coupled to the train engine. This arrangement applied in the LMS and BR periods.

Further, the quay-branch pilot had to shunt sidings across the Glasson Dock line, so needed the Dock staff to work the ground frame. The LMS solved this by breaking the Dock branch into two OIS sections with different staffs, such that the Dock trains could leave the first staff with the Quay pilot. There were special arrangements as to who could receive this staff from the Dock trains as there was no signalman at the break between the two stations. IIRC, the Quay shunter was authorised to receive the staff.


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