BR CCT's

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Serjt-Dave
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BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:57 pm

Hi All. Does any one know what colour the interior a BR/SR CCT Van is? I know Bullied brake compartments were a light green, would this have applied to their CCT vans? This really only applies to the window bars as very little of the inside of the van is visible.

Thanks

Dave

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Steve Carter
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Steve Carter » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:25 pm

Hi Dave
There are some details of the research on the interiors done by the Bluebell C&W when restoring a Van C.
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/blueb ... s/404.html
Whilst SR I would doubt there was much repainting of interiors in BR?
Cheers
Steve
Steve Carter

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:14 pm

Thanks Steve. That was very helpful. It confirms what I was thinking anyway. The CCT I've built is the BR built version but other than being painted crimson I think they would have been painted as per the Southern.

Looking at other images of 404, loved seeing the Guards periscope. Reminded me of when I first started on the job and some of the VEP's, CP's and EPP's still had them.

Dave

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Noel
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Noel » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:20 am

The appendix to BR Mark 1 coaches [HMRS] quotes the internal colours as white roof, buff walls for the guard's compartment, terracotta for the luggage section, and lead colour floor. This is an attachment to a committee minute of 13/2/52, which implies that this specification is earlier. The new BR livery colours were specified in Spring 1949, so it seems likely that the new internal finishes would have been specified at the same time. Practice before the BR specification was issued would undoubtedly have perpetuated the previous colours.

Extrapolating to other vehicles is always tricky, but BR had standard specifications for most things, so these would likely be applied at first repaint after the specification was issued; unless, of course, the region had a lot of old paint it decided to use up, or just didn't want to follow the rules, although many of these anomalies were tidied away during the early 1950s. Works might continue to have different interpretations of the specification, but usually only in minor aspects.

By the period I'm interested in [circa 1959], the window grilles on B and BY were a bauxite-ish colour, presumably the above-mentioned terracotta, with black mesh behind. CCTs and PMVs, so far as I can remember, only showed three horizontal white bars across the windows to external view, the central one narrower than the others, as in SR days, but then, the windows were normally filthy like the rest of the vehicle; no cleaning for parcels vehicles, apart from guard's windows, sometimes. Incidentally, my memory [from many years ago and not therefore reliable, I know] says that the 'stove' panels on B and BY in BR days really were yellow, a bright golden colour.

All in all, I think that the colours used will depend a lot on when the vehicle was built, and if soon after Nationalisation, whether it had been repainted before the period you model.
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:53 pm

Thanks Noel. The CCT I'm building is to diagram 3031 which the were the BR versions of the SR vans. These were built in 51, so if the specs came in at about 49 I would then imagine the new spec would have been adhere to, especially as the outer body colour was Crimson. I plan to have it lightly weathered as to show it's only been in service a short while. Will decide closer to the time what colour the bars will be then and will keep you posted.

Dave

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Noel
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Noel » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:58 am

Serjt-Dave wrote: I plan to have it lightly weathered as to show it's only been in service a short while.


The first really effective Clean Air Act was in 1956, following [at a distance!] the smog deaths in London in 1952. Prior to that large conurbations and industrial areas [where most railway rolling stock spent most of its time] were full of industrial processes powered by coal, coal fired power stations and gas works, and, in total, millions of domestic premises, all burning coal [plus tens of thousands of steam engines, of course] . As well as being dirty, the smoke from these was commonly acid, and therefore likely to affect both the pigment in the paint in some cases, and the build-up of surface contaminants. Without cleaning [usually limited to just the sides of passenger coaches], the external appearance of railway rolling stock in the early 1950s deteriorated rapidly [by modern standards] after leaving works.
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:34 pm

Just started painting this CCT and I just wanted check something. I've only painted the van sides in crimson and not the ends. Is this correct? The ends being black.

Dave

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Noel
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Noel » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:54 am

Yes
Noel

John Palmer
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:24 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:Just started painting this CCT and I just wanted check something. I've only painted the van sides in crimson and not the ends. Is this correct? The ends being black.

Dave

This thread prompted me to take a look at my LMS Diagram 1929 CCT from a Parkside kit. I painted it in BR Carmine livery, including the ends. Although red end doors would appear to be appropriate for a CCT model set in LMS days, black painted ends seem to be pretty near universal as the BR livery. Meaning that I now have some repainting to do... Rats!

PhilipT
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby PhilipT » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:06 pm

………..or maybe not. I can't speak for CCTs but the colour of ends on some -ex LMS vehicles well into the BR period could depend upon which works did the painting, an example being pull and push driving trailer ends which could be red (Derby??) or black (Wolverton??). Finding a photograph of the end of a CCT may be difficult but I would hold off repainting until I had evidence that it was needed.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 pm

Thanks All, and off I trot to the workshop {shed}and do a lot of spraying black then.

Dave

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Noel
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Noel » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:06 pm

According to Essery and Jenkinson in "LMS Coaches, an Illustrated History", LMS vehicles had red ends ex-works until 1936, after which they were black. This could well mean that some still had red ends until after WW2. The photos of driving trailers in that book show that the driving ends were red [both photos taken before 1936]. No non-driving ends of driving trailers are shown, but several photos of NCCPS show red ends.

I can't comment on BR liveries for ex-LMS driving trailers, but the WR practice was for the driving ends to be the same as the sides, and the non-driving end black, assuming it was flat. The Collett and BR trailers, plus a couple of pre-Group ones with corridors, were the same colour{s) as the sides on both ends, which was similar to GW practice.

Generally BR coaching stock had black ends until they started using spray techniques in the mid-1960s, although there were exceptions, such as Pullman cars. With spray painting it was easier to spray everything the same colour, including the ends. Chocolate and cream was no longer being applied by then, so this only applied to maroon, green and the later blue/blue and grey.
Noel

John Palmer
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:37 pm

Here's a shot I took in the mid 1960's of a Diagram 1929 CCT at Wimborne.
D1929_CCT_at_Wimborne.jpg
Pretty typical of the image quality obtainable at that time from a Kodak Instamatic, i.e. serviceable but not outstanding. Having put the image into paint.net I used the colour picker on adjacent areas of the visible side and end, but was unable to perceive any tonal variation between the two. I'll take a look at my notebooks but doubt that I made any note of livery details at the time. Perhaps the jury is still out on the correct end colour in BR days.

I hoped that Paul Bartlett's website might have a picture that might assist, but all his pictures of the BR design CCT seem to date from the blue period, and he has no picture of the LMS Diag. 1929 vehicle; only those to Diag. 2026. What may be of interest are his 1977 pictures of M37776: a Diag. 1870 Luggage and Parcels van with sides and ends in what appears to be a faded carmine livery.

Regarding driving trailers, Southern Region practice appears to have been the same as Western; there are quite a few pictures I have seen of red painted driving ends on such vehicles. Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour' has pictures showing both ends of the driving brake third allocated to Set 735 whilst on the Allhallows Branch: the driving end is red and the opposite end is black.

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Noel
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Noel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 am

John, in the photo you posted the numbers etc are almost illegible, implying that the vehicle is very dirty. Differentiating between red and black on different surfaces in 1950s-1960s era b&w 'in service' photos can be difficult, even with clean vehicles [works photos are usually clearer]; here the difference, if any, would be largely obscured by the dirt. BR Mark 1 Coaches shows photographs of the prototype GUV and CCT ex-works, which are probably both in crimson, since they just pre-date the change. Both appear to have black ends. There are also a number of early BR era Swindon works photos of NPCCS in crimson in Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol 2; whether corridor, plain or end door, all appear to be black.

So far as M37776 is concerned, carmine ceased to be used in March 1956, so its survival to 1977 seems to me to be somewhat improbable. My suggestion is that this is faded maroon, dating from the brief window in the mid-1960s between spray painting being adopted and ends being painted the same colour as the sides, as I referred to earlier, and the change to blue. According to Dave Larkin [BR General Parcels Rolling Stock] these vehicles were withdrawn from the late 1960s onwards, so a 1960s repaint might have lasted until withdrawal.

Incidentally, in the photo in Russell of a WR conversion of a brake third to a driving trailer in 1955, the sides are crimson, given the date, but the driving end looks as though it may be black. I have yet to see a colour photo to prove or disprove this [and would very much like to know!]; certainly in plain or lined maroon the driving end was in the same livery as the sides.
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: BR CCT's

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:06 pm

Found this image {all be it a modern image} of a preserved BR CCT showing the inside which almost conforms to the regs that Noel posted earlier in this thread. Only difference to what the regs stated is the floor colour. Regs state a slate grey colour where this has the floor the same colour as the walls.
Still a nice image
DSCF5119.jpg


Dave


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