1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

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MarkS
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1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:04 am

This saga started back last century when I acquired a fully built Craftsman 1P 0-4-4T (in OO) with the idea that I could turn it into a P4, blue S&D version... That turned out to involve too much work, so I put it away for another day.
A couple of years ago I pulled it out and added some detail, and painted the body - still a 1P that ran on the S&D, but in LMS black with red lining.

P1050601.JPG
P1050601.JPG (264.54 KiB) Viewed 2557 times

I thought about rebuilding the original chassis (silk purse, pigs ear comes to mind) and was about to start a chassis from scratch when that nice Mr. Newitt announced he had a produced P4 sprung chassis for this kit.
Serendipity, and my order went out across the ether... A week or so later a package arrived here in Canada.

This shows the difference 40 years makes (Original Craftsman chassis side - lower), although for this photo I had only folded up the chassis to check clearances in the body. (Filing of the body will be required :() The new chassis has overlays which are attached later in the build.

P1050599.JPG
P1050599.JPG (302.09 KiB) Viewed 2557 times


My initial impressions are very good, the nickel silver etches are excellent, the instructions have a couple of minor errors, but there are photos which help clarify things. http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/LMS_1P_Chassis_Instructions_-_Craftsman_Version.pdf

I would suggest that you don't start with a finished, painted body like I have, especially if you want to correct the cab interior - There will be more work involved trying not to ruin the paint.
More to come...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:08 am

Hi Mark. I too rejoiced when I found out that Justin was going to do a 1P chassis and quickly ordered two of them. I picked them up at the Scale North show. Looking forwards to starting them and looking forward to see how you get on with yours.

All Best

Dave

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Le Corbusier
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:04 am

I shall also be watching this with interest as I picked up an unbuilt Craftsman 1P for the kit cupboard off e-bay a few months back.

Tim
Tim Lee

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:48 am

I was all excited about this build, figuring that as I had already built and painted the body, it should be fairly quick...
However, due to the usual summer excuses to avoid modelling, I did not do much with the kit until recently.

Then, needless to say, I soon went "Off Piste"...
First of all, I found that using the driving wheel bearing arrangement from the kit gave me sticky bearings.
The kit uses just the bearings from HighLevel, and not the "horn" - I measured the thickness of the chassis - .4mm, and the highlevel horn - .3mm.
At this point I could have spent time fettling, but I noticed that the chassis has holes that match the HighLevel horns, so I installed the full HighLevel hornblocks because they always give me good results. (standard at the front, spacesaver for the geared axle)
P1050752.JPG

Of course, this meant that I had to modify the keeper plate, and I removed the end former's for the ash pan while I was at it so that I could wrap some 5 thou brass around them. I then re-attached the ashpan to the keeper.
P1050751.JPG

I have otherwise been following the instructions, but I am trying to figure out how the bogie is meant to be attached, the instructions are not very clear and there is no helpful photograph showing what it is meant to look like.
However, the small bearings don't seem to be sticky, so I followed the instructions here.
The other thing is trying to find 2.5mm tubing in Canada, not easy when hobby shops only carry tubing from the Imperial USA... (and then there is the M2 nut and bolt...) I will have to solve the metric problem with an imperial solution.

Anyway, I am figuring it out slowly, and it fits into the body reasonably well... Not quite sure about the ash pan yet, it seems to hang a bit low.
P1050755.JPG
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

PeteT
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:23 pm

Hi Mark,

I'll put my head above the parrapet as the one who comissioned Justin to do this one. Therefore, while Justin's main range items have brilliant instruction sets these take a lot of time to put together. I tried to photo document as I went along, but appreciate I seem to have missed a few steps.

Sorry to see you had issues with the hornblocks - I fitted standard High Level (not space savers) blocks into the test build and it runs well, I don't recall doing anything other than cleaning up cusps on the etch to fit them.

My photos do seem to lack the bogie assembly, I'll take some more and post them here for you. It basically ends up as the inner bolster, with the flat face upwards to meet the rubbing plate. This is tied to the main bogie frame with the CSB wires. The bolt goes through this assembly, then the swing arm, then the main frame. I found on initial build that without any side control it didnt quite run perfectly. Justin has a suggestion for side control in the instructions, I followed a different method as I integrated it with pickups on the bogie wheels and I am really happy with it now.

I'll be back with some photos...
Cheers,
Pete

PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:34 pm

Hi Mark,

Hopefully these photos help to explain, though I appreciate I haven't fully taken it to pieces.

Starting with the bogie, viewed from above. The top/bolster piece, which sits inboard of the main bogie frame, has a U shaped piece inserted from below. This helps keep the screw assembly square in use (without it it goes floppy). Also can be seen are the vertical pickup strands (phosphor bronze wire) which double up as side control as they insert into tubes on the main loco frame.
20181119_211334.jpg


Bogie viewed fro below.
20181119_211159.jpg


Main loco frame, with the swing arm in place. Also in view are the bolt with tube section (this inserts from below) and the nut with washer soldered in place. The copper clad with pickup receive tubes (0.5mm ID tube) can be seen (the one on the rear isnt used, but I wasnt 100% sure my initial plan was going to work as well as it has to fulfill both requirements)
20181119_211357.jpg


Whole assembly together:
20181119_211423.jpg


This is an older photo before pickups etc, but shows the bogie from the side. I kept trying to assemble the bogie with the top piece the wrong way up.
20180328_214954.jpg


Hope these help,
Thanks,
Pete

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:31 am

Thanks Pete,
the photos help explain things. I was wondering how the top/bolster was kept in place (other than friction).
As to the hornblocks, that was more impatience on my part than a design flaw, I had a lot going on in my non-modelling life so I jumped to a fast solution, without thinking it through. With hindsight, I would have fettled the bearings more.
However, it still works so all I lost was a bit of time.

I have built up the bogie as per instructions and it works nicely, I just have to make up a tube/bolt and attach it - and thanks for the tip about side control, I like your solution, dual purpose, very neat.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

Lindsay G
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Pete,

The design of the bogie, how it attaches to the body, and the side play/electrical contacts all look great and really innovative - it's always great to see things being achieved in different ways. I've got a couple of home made sprung bogies for 0-4-4T's, the springing arrangement being not too dissimilar, but haven't been entirely happy with how I attached them to the body, and I haven't got around to looking at the pick up arrangement. Methinks I should have a look at the possibility of following your arrangement for both.

When you say you are "really happy with it now", is that in all aspects - electrical pick-up, how the engine performs running backwards around curves or turnouts, movement looks prototypical, and so?

Thanks for posting, and cheers,

Lindsay

PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Thanks Mark, Lindsay,

Yes, pickups, performance and visuals all look good. The only caveat is whether long term the phosphor bronze wire is up to the job, but I don't see why it shouldn't be - it is guiding the movement of the loco rather than forcing it, after all...

I will try and remember to take it with me to have a run on Barrow Road at the beginning of next month, which should be able to result in a video or two. It runs very well around the pointwork on my layout. At S4um it also had a run on Burnham. At that point, the pickups were in place but the rear wheels did have a habit of not rotating at times. I had packed plenty of weight in the boiler and side tanks but none in the cab or bunker, so a little bit at the back end helps cure that.

It is my 2nd 0-4-4 - the first has a fixed pivot point and while it runs ok it doesnt like bends and does tend to swing the front end rather unprototypically. That bogie was compensated and pickups were split axle, with Alan Gibson sprung plunger pickups up to the loco, which worked well initially but do have a habit of sticking now.

Thanks,
Pete

John Palmer
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:21 am

This is an interesting and helpful thread for me, as I've recently obtained one of these chassis with a view to its employment as a replacement chassis for my first bogie tank. This is a scratch-built model of a 2228 class engine, which has significant differences in appearance from the 1532/1833 class engines of which the Craftsman kit is more representative. At the time of its building I only had drawings of the earlier class of engine, and it wasn't until I recently compared my model with the drawings in the Wild Swan profile that I was able to identify how far I had led myself astray, particularly as regards the cab dimensions. The engine was one of several failures we had at Scaleforum, so a new chassis, motor and gearbox seemed to be in order, as well as some tweaks to improve the appearance of things above the running plate.

My second bogie tank was derived from a Craftsman kit but mounted on a chassis of my own devising. For this I employed split axle collection on the bogie, by means of brass bearing shells (from which current was led to the motor) fitted into Delrin insulating muffs, which in turn were pressed into the bogie side frames. On a 5' 6" wheelbase I found no need to spring or equalise the bogie wheels and have had no problem with these running in a rigid truck which takes the weight of the engine's back end via a domed centre pin working against the underside of a bearing plate that also serves as a spacer for the main frames of the locomotive. The bogie pivots on a swing arm which in turn is pivoted from a frame spacer set midway along the firebox. Side control of the bogie is imparted by spring wire that is set into the leading end of the swing arm and constrained within a receiving slot so as to spring load the arm.

For the rebuild of my 2228 class engine, therefore, I'm open to suggestions as to how Pete's bogie design might be adapted to make it suitable for split axle collection. My initial thought is to use a paxolin block as the central frame stretcher for the bogie, but I suspect that attachment to such a block of the sideframes is going to be complicated by the presence of the CSB springs for the axleboxes. A way will also have to be found to insulate one end of each of the stretcher rods that link the bogie sideframes together at front and rear, but that shouldn't be difficult to accomplish by means of a couple of small insulating bushes.

Pete, it was a pleasure to let your engine stretch its legs briefly on Burnham at Scaleforum, and the smoothness of its performance was impressive. I only hope I can do as well with the new chassis for my 2228 class.

PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:19 pm

Thanks John, it was a pleasure to let it grace Burnham too!

The bogie design itself is Justin rather than me (thats for the sake of credit where its due, not slopey shoulders, I can assure you!) - and I think Justin suggested side control is the way you have previously done it John. My addition was the side control and pickups while allowing the bogie to be removed.

I was wondering early in the project when we were discussing bogie springing options about how to incorporate split axle pickups. At that point my 2P was the only running loco I had with unpowered wheels with pickups, and I was concerned by the drag of conventional pickups from preventing the wheels from turning. In between times I got the tender on my Bachmann/Brassmaster easi-chas 3F sorted out with wipers, and that worked well - so at that point I parked the split axle requirement.

I appreciate that it is a short bogie and in terms of staying on the track I agree that rigid is perfectly fine - but wanted it sprung for that extra bit of current collection and flowing motion.

I was thinking of having a play with the EM gauge bogie on the fret to see if I could arrange it for split axles and fit it to the 2P, until I remembered the 2P has a longer wheelbase bogie.

To summarise the above waffle - sorry John, I'm not sure!

PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:35 pm

Apologies for the delay - I was hoping to find time to remove the audio, but apparently Christmas is next week and time is running away... However I'm pretty sure nobody says anything confidential in the background, and it does show how quietly she performs!

This is my first Youtube upload so I'll be surprised if it works first time - I put it as public but unlisted so it should work! Ok, so the youtube bit doesnt seem to work but as a URL it at least gives a link to it...

https://youtu.be/7uOtIo3wc24

You tube bit added, it does work if you format it correctly. :)
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added youtube bb code

David Knight
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby David Knight » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:37 pm

Works just fine, very smooth with no distracting lumps in the motion. :thumb :thumb . That’s the engine and the video both BTW :D

Cheers,

David

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barrowroad
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby barrowroad » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:36 pm

Nice smooth running loco Pete.


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