Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

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Philip Hall
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:25 am

Thanks for the suggestions Dave. I have always used a tiny drop of retainer, just in the top thread of the nuts, and so far had no problems with the stuff going further down the crankpin. I do make sure there is enough clearance behind the nuts, so that shouldn’t be a cause, but once in a while one fell off, hence I started using retainer.

I had heard about using nail varnish but shellac hadn’t occurred to me, and easy to remove with meths, so will give that a try. I also didn’t think of a burr on the end of the screw; filing the pin flush will of course create such a burr so maybe I should just leave it at that and not clean the burr off.

Some of my engines will be charging around at 70 or thereabouts so I am being cautious. And of course I have no idea of the stresses some of my customers’ engines will be put through, so caution here again...

Philip

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:41 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:A quick question on brake rigging. :?: :?: :?:

I want to set it up so that it is demountable to allow the wheels to be dropped in and out.

Is there a thread anywhere which shows the methodology/sequence .... I would be particularly interested in tricks to make sure everything is nice, square and true ..... with tolerances as tight as might be without fouling the wheels or coupling rods.

Tim

Sorry I was a bit slow following up on this. I knew it was out there I just couldn't remember where. Found it now, see this post which goes through removable brake gear in detail. Tolerances on the wheel brakeblock intertface is a problem, I'm afraid practicalities mean you will need to allow rather more space between brake block and wheels than they did on the prototype.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:16 pm

Will L wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:A quick question on brake rigging. :?: :?: :?:

I want to set it up so that it is demountable to allow the wheels to be dropped in and out.

Is there a thread anywhere which shows the methodology/sequence .... I would be particularly interested in tricks to make sure everything is nice, square and true ..... with tolerances as tight as might be without fouling the wheels or coupling rods.

Tim

Sorry I was a bit slow following up on this. I knew it was out there I just couldn't remember where. Found it now, see this post which goes through removable brake gear in detail. Tolerances on the wheel brakeblock intertface is a problem, I'm afraid practicalities mean you will need to allow rather more space between brake block and wheels than they did on the prototype.


Thanks Will ... a bit after the event now - but will be useful for the future. I will load some pictures of how I have got on in a little while and what I did ... it seems to be working though the accuracy could be a little better :?
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:36 pm

A bit of a catch up on where I have got to on the 1F Chassis ....

I decided to bin the Craftsman kit brake etches and in the end the rigging as well .... they were a little crude for my liking. So, given that the frames are Gibson, I think the sandbox castings are all that remains of the original kit for this element :shock: ...Instead I used the Iain Rice brake gear etch for the Jinty -which to my eye was a better match - and some mainly trains rigging I happened to have. I soldered up the brakes using lace pins to simulate the bolt heads and clipped the shank off short at the top pivot to allow me to 'spring' locate it into the frames.

Brake gear components 1 - 2.jpg


I decided to house some capillary tube into the frames at the hanger points into which the lace pin shanks could locate, allowing the gear to be removable for painting and maintenance.

Brake gear components 1 - 5.jpg


The brake gear and rigging was made up on the frames ... firstly soldering in the cross members ... then affixing the pull rods using these to set the position prior to soldering fixed. As part of this I soldered the white metal sand box castings to the frames in as near to the correct position as was possible (Next time I think I will cut my own frames to ensure that everything locates correctly in relation to the other elements). I then soldered a representation of the sanding pipes to the rigging locating them into the base of the sand boxes via a drilled locating hole.

I also made up two sub-assemblies using some scrap etch of wheel springs kindly sent to me by John Redrup at LRM. The first which bolts to one of the cross members on the chassis carries the four rear springs and the representation of the ashpan .... the second bolts to the front member and carries the two front springs.

1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear assembled -complete - 4.jpg


This is a photo of everything assembled onto the chassis ... looking at the picture the rear section of pull rods needs tweaking to bring it level, which is easy to do.

1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear assembled -complete - 6.jpg


And here are a couple of pictures with the current state of play on the upper bodywork ... the second with Chimney, Dome etc simply dropped on.

1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear assembled -complete - 7.jpg

1f 0-6-0 T _ Brake gear assembled -complete - 8.jpg


As usual, the close up photograph is relatively unforgiving ... but overall I am pleased with progress. Its a bit rough here and there, but from viewing distance I think it looks ok :thumb
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:38 pm

:thumb looks great Tim. Ambitious standards you've set yourself e.g. detachable this that and the other on the chassis!, and achieved.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:34 pm

Next instalment of the 1F ..... :D

By trimming down the circuit board on the jack point (for charging the battery) as tight as is possible, my plan of hiding it within the coal bunker has worked :thumb The jack point itself is housed within the top plate of the bunker.

1f 0-6-0 T _ power feed - 1.jpg


Next to put some detail into the rear of the cab ... using the pictures taken of the preserved 1f. First I cut a hole for the coal feed and then fabricated up the hatch mechanism including chain and bracket. I have blanked off the rear of the coal hole so I can glue some coal into it. I have also made a representation of the sanding lever and the brake lever ... neither of which were provided in the kit. A couple of lugs have been soldered in place at the base to capture the floor plate of the front cab component.

I have also fabricated up a new smoke box saddle as the white metal offering which came with the kit was badly flashed and skew-whiff!

1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 4.jpg


Now for the front of the cab. I sourced a backhead casting from John Redrup at LRM as a starting point. I used .4mm wire to form the beading to the spectacle plates. I then fabricated the base of the floor out of brass to which the handrail stanchions have been soldered and which will locate beneath bunker lugs. Next I fabricated up and soldered in place a representation of the backs of the tanks either side of the back head. The splasher boxings were then formed .... a low one to the right with a white metal representation of the reversing lever bonded into position, and a taller one on the left giving storage and a lift of seat cover. Finally the floor boarding was built up with pockets to receive and hide the locating lugs.

1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 3.jpg


If I loosely combine cab and footplate it goes together like this ....

1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 6.jpg
1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 7.jpg
1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 8.jpg




..... And when sat on the chassis it looks like this .....

1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 9.jpg
1f 0-6-0 T _ cab interior - 10.jpg



So far ... So Good ;)
Tim Lee

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:07 pm

Looks very tidy Tim!
Mark Tatlow

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:12 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:Looks very tidy Tim!


Thanks Mark .... I think it is slowly getting there :thumb During the process something has ever so slightly twisted the tanks they are no longer sitting tight to the footplate - I will need to put my thinking hat on to come up with a method of sorting this :? If I give it a twist in the counter direction it will sit fine, but after half an hour it has twisted again .... I've a feeling its something to do with the soldered in cab floor ....hmmmm!
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Will L » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm

Hummmm

I realise this advice may come a bit late. I too like to have the body break down into sub assemblies, but I think when building tank engins your asking quite a lot to get the cab tank and boiler complex perfectly square when assembled away from the footplate. So the long tank footplate joint can be hard to hide. My personal preference is to make the cab/tanks integral with the footplate and the boiler/smokebox assembly removable. As first sight this might seem counter intuitive, but experience has shown that the joints involved are relatively simple to get right. The key one being the boiler cab joint which is quite short and you can use pins or tags to ensure it aligns. The boiler/tank top joint would usually be clear and obvious on the real thing, and the smoke box can be bolted down firmly to the footplate and the joints are again quite short, and often hidden behind splashes, sandboxes and access cover to the cylinders. On the J65 and J69 (you've met them both) the boiler assembly goes in with a satisfying click even before I bolt down the smoke box.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 pm

Will L wrote:Hummmm

I realise this advice may come a bit late. I too like to have the body break down into sub assemblies, but I think when building tank engins your asking quite a lot to get the cab tank and boiler complex perfectly square when assembled away from the footplate. So the long tank footplate joint can be hard to hide. My personal preference is to make the cab/tanks integral with the footplate and the boiler/smokebox assembly removable. As first sight this might seem counter intuitive, but experience has shown that the joints involved are relatively simple to get right. The key one being the boiler cab joint which is quite short and you can use pins or tags to ensure it aligns. The boiler/tank top joint would usually be clear and obvious on the real thing, and the smoke box can be bolted down firmly to the footplate and the joints are again quite short, and often hidden behind splashes, sandboxes and access cover to the cylinders. On the J65 and J69 (you've met them both) the boiler assembly goes in with a satisfying click even before I bolt down the smoke box.


yes ... I remember you showing me that at scaleforum ... the problem I have is that the battery sits across the top of the tanks, so I need to be able to lift the whole assembly off so I can pop the battery out from below. It sat fine on the footplate before the cab work was done so I must have put some torsion into it somewhere. I will just have to play and experiment .... which certainly seems to be the name of the game with this build ... hey ho!
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CornCrake » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:24 am

Hi Tim,
almost looking too good to paint!
Thanks for the detailed postings.

In your last photo there is a gap at the front of the tank and the footplate where the vertical tab goes into the footplate.
Is that what you are talking about?

I can't make out from the photo whether it is the bottom side of the tank not straight or whether the footplate is not level.

Could you put an L bracket inside the front of the tank with a nut, then put a bolt from below the footplate to pull the footplate up tight?

Ps One of your stools is wandering!

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:41 am

CornCrake wrote:Hi Tim,
almost looking too good to paint!
Thanks for the detailed postings.


Thanks for the encouragement ... much appreciated :thumb

CornCrake wrote:In your last photo there is a gap at the front of the tank and the footplate where the vertical tab goes into the footplate.
Is that what you are talking about?


Yep ... but it is worse in the photos because it is loose laid ... and so pitching up a little due to squeezing under the tabs at the rear. When the screw is attached under the smoke box it pulls it down so that only the twist is evident.

CornCrake wrote:I can't make out from the photo whether it is the bottom side of the tank not straight or whether the footplate is not level.

Could you put an L bracket inside the front of the tank with a nut, then put a bolt from below the footplate to pull the footplate up tight?


The footplate is level ... so I would be worried about deforming by trying to pull it to the twist. I am pondering some form of bracing as I am loathe to unsolder anything if I can help it. It might be possible to jig it and solder in some form of plate or cross brace to take out the twist.

CornCrake wrote:Ps One of your stools is wandering!


Yes I noticed that ... luckily that is easy to remedy, must get round to replacing ;)
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:35 am

Hi Tim, :)

sorry I have been busy over the last month and had lost track of what you have been up to, much of what you were wondering about vis a vis the use of keeper plates, removable brakes, thread locking etc. is covered here in my loco building thread.

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=666&start=100

However you have been well served by everyone and much positive advice given as is typical of the Forum membership.

All the best to you and everyone corresponding to your excellent thread. Happy Christmas and here's to a very productive year in 2020!

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:Hi Tim, :)

sorry I have been busy over the last month and had lost track of what you have been up to, much of what you were wondering about vis a vis the use of keeper plates, removable brakes, thread locking etc. is covered here in my loco building thread.

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=666&start=100

However you have been well served by everyone and much positive advice given as is typical of the Forum membership.

All the best to you and everyone corresponding to your excellent thread. Happy Christmas and here's to a very productive year in 2020!

Allan :)


Same to you Allan :D

I have a trip up to Scotland planned for the Winter half term Holiday ... Going to do a bit of mountain walking in Skye .... It will be nice to visit again as the West Coast is one of my favourite all time places - and you never know I might finally get to ride the Mallaig line :thumb It will be nice to spend a few days as far away from London (not to say England) as possible - to decompress a little and try and re-charge the batteries !
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Phil O » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:10 pm

Hi Tim

As the tank top has a lip, would fixing the tank sides to the footplate and the tank tops to the boiler, the boiler may need slotting to clear the front of the tanks, hopefully the dome will provide a handle for lifting it off. It may need some small angle along the tank sides to prevent the top from going to far down. The other possibility is to have two tabs with soldered nuts underneath and screws hidden by the tank fillers.

Phil

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:56 pm

Thanks Phil,

That is worth pondering should my bracing idea not work. The twist is not massive though ... the enlargement of the photos is pretty unforgiving. It may be that I live with it and try your suggestion on the 1P build I have next in the pipeline :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:06 pm

Looking Good Tim and looking forwards to seeing to completed engine. Happy Days!

Dave

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:22 pm

Thanks Dave ... appreciated.

Excellent news .... I filed off the tabs at the front of the tanks so that I could properly check everything in terms of twist etc. Once this was done the problem became obvious. The tanks and main body sit nice and square and true onto a piece of glass. The problem was a brass spacer piece soldered into the base of the smoke box tapped to take the fixing down bolt. This spacer was sitting ever so slightly proud and not quite level causing the whole assembly to lift and rock slightly. I have now filed the spacer flat and ground the whole base using fine wet and dry on a piece of glass. Everything is now sitting good and true on the footplate with no gaps.

Happy Days :thumb
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby CornCrake » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:12 pm

Well done. Good to be able to solve at least one problem a day.
Steve.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:03 pm

Update on progress ... I have been detailing up the bodywork and scratching my head a little regarding battery and motor positions once I found that cumulative inaccuracies meant that I was about 2mm short of the required space as I had calculated it and so I couldn't get everything to fit :shock: .

In the end Dave was again spot on ( I think we need a yawn emoji :D ) - note to self ... listen harder to tentative advice ... I ended up powering the rear axle rather than the centre one with the motor very much within the ashpan. I rigged up a torsion bracket above the gearbox squeaking behind the cab front and all is good :thumb

Final before painting - 1.jpg

Final before painting - 2.jpg


I got it all wired up and it runs nice and smoothly ... though it is faster going forward (max speed ± scale 40mph where as in reverse it is around ± scale 35mph) Not sure why that would be :?

Anyway ... here are some pictures I took of it all assembled and ready for etch priming. I have had a bit of fun fabricating up the various details as again the original kit provided the wrong details or provided none at all ... and fitting the various bits and pieces sourced through John Redrup at LRM. I have re-made the handrail with just the single central handrail knob to match my prototype; fitted the safety valve cover and whistle; I fabricated up a representation of the smoke box door bracket from scrap, tube and wire; Fitted LRM's dart; Fitted the pre 1903 lamp irons; soldered in the buffer housings and draw bar hooks with three link chain, put in the mushroom lubricators either side of the smoke box; Fabricated up a representation of the 'A' boiler tank straps/stays and sundry other gubbins on top of the tanks, fabricated up representation of the linkages on the salter safety valves ....


Final before painting - 5.jpg

Final before painting - 6.jpg


Final before painting - 7.jpg

Final before painting - 8.jpg


Final before painting - 10.jpg

Final before painting - 11.jpg

Final before painting - 12.jpg


I am overall happy with the outcome and not minded to add much more - unless anyone thinks I have missed something important - so next step will be breaking it back down into the various sub assemblies ready for a thorough clean followed by a coat of etch primer. I will then have various holes and the such like to fill prior to painting. I will see if I can take a video before doing this to show it running under battery power :thumb :D
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:02 pm

HI Tim, :)

Great stuff looks fantastic!

Allan

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:HI Tim, :)

Great stuff looks fantastic!

Allan


Thanks Allan ... and thanks for all the help and advice.

It has been a steep learning curve with many a 1 step forward and two steps back ... but ultimately very rewarding. I shall probably pause before painting and turn my attention to the additional two 3 plank wagons and the ballast brake van which make up the track maintenance train I want it to pull. :)
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:30 pm

I have just spent some time thoroughly cleaning the chassis of my 1Fas it appeared to have become a little 'sticky' under slow operation ....as nothing had changed in the set up from earlier, I deduced that some of the filing etc taking place during the detailing of the bodywork had contaminated the mechanism. This diagnosis would appear to have been correct as it is now running smoothly again.

Is there a way of preventing this happening again, and should I lubricate the axle/crank rod bearings or leave as is? If yes, what would be the best lubricant? Iain Rice suggests fine clock oil in his chassis book, but it strikes me that this is likely to attract grit and dust over time just causing a recurrence?
Tim Lee

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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby petermeyer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:19 am

I always remove the chassis when working on the bodywork to avoid any damage including from handling.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:23 am

I did remove the chassis ... but it was on the same work bench :?
Tim Lee


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