Is this a weighbridge?

Discuss the prototype and how to model it.
User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:26 am

This feature appears on the plan of Connah's Quay c 1906, (just to the left of "Lamp Post" which is circled in red) but there are no photographs available. The longer structure is marked cabin, but the two rectangles, one on the track, one next to the track, marked W.M. have me confused. The nearest I could get would be a weighbridge, but how would that work on a track? And if such a thing exists what would it look like? Any suggestions?
P7220453.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

Armchair Modeller

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:28 am

Rail weighbridges were quite common. There is information and some photos on the Internet

This is one example I found

Image

I wonder if the two rectangles suggest there might be a road weighbridge and a rail one side by side? - or is one rectangle the weighbridge office?

martinm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby martinm » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:48 am

This feature appears on the plan of Connah's Quay c 1906, (just to the left of "Lamp Post" which is circled in red) but there are no photographs available. The longer structure is marked cabin, but the two rectangles, one on the track, one next to the track, marked W.M. have me confused. The nearest I could get would be a weighbridge, but how would that work on a track? And if such a thing exists what would it look like? Any suggestions?


Hi Jon,

I think that WM is probably short for Weighing Machine.

These were an important part of most goods yards, almost always for road vehicles, for goods unloaded; in larger yards rail machines allowed measurement of wagon loads going out.

A search for 'railway weighbridge' will provide pictures of both types - Coopercraft used to to do a kit of cabin and weighing plate, other makes are available!

Thinking about this, I feel that the unmarked rectangle must be the weighing machine office, since it needs to be adjacent to the weighing track.

regards,

martin

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:09 pm

Thanks for this. Presumably these things were out of bounds for steam locos which would mean horses were still needed as there are no steam or hydraulic bollards present.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

Armchair Modeller

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:34 pm

Some weighbridges had gauntleted tracks so locos could go over them without breaking the mechanism - but looking at your track layout, horses might be a likely bet for that part of the goods yard - especially with those wagon turntables.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73214-cadbury-bournville/page-2#entry1079868

Lindsay G
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:16 am

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Lindsay G » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:36 pm

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I hope you forgive.

Should you be stumped by any abbreviations on OS maps, you might find the following site useful : http://maps.nls.uk/os/abbrev/w.html

A few years ago, The Toddler had an article on Barnton station with a plan showing a Water Tower next to the goods shed - trouble is that there never was a water tower at Barnton. However, the 1933 OS map did have an abbreviation WT - short for water tap, no difference at all then?

Lindsay

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby dal-t » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:17 pm

Is it just a quirk of the reproduction, or is there some dramatic gauge widening to the right of the wagon t/t at the bottom of the plan? I confess I don't have much of an idea where Connah's Quay is (was?), but I'm pretty sure it's not on the French/Spanish border, where such a facility might occasionally come in handy ...
David L-T

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:06 pm

No gauge widening going on. The lines at the front ran along the wharf. In front was a line used by self mobile steam cranes. behind the trader wagons carried tramway boxes that were lifted into the holds of schooners, emptied and returned to the trader wagons.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
Paul Townsend
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Paul Townsend » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:46 am

jon price wrote:No gauge widening going on. The lines at the front ran along the wharf. In front was a line used by self mobile steam cranes. behind the trader wagons carried tramway boxes that were lifted into the holds of schooners, emptied and returned to the trader wagons.


It was quite common to have wharf cranes running on 7ft BG tracks, well into 20th century. Whether BG or NG such wharf tracks dedicated to cranes were often not connected to the nearby "normal" track.

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Tim V » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:06 am

Don't forget, OS maps should not be relied on for track formations. It was not their remit to map such features. They were concerned with boundaries and areas. Track formations are fortuitous for us.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby dal-t » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:26 am

Paul Townsend wrote:It was quite common to have wharf cranes running on 7ft BG tracks, well into 20th century. Whether BG or NG such wharf tracks dedicated to cranes were often not connected to the nearby "normal" track.


Yes, I have just such an arrangement on the dockside diorama I am building, with the NG siding having power for the shunting engine but the BG rails straddling it being dead, with a static crane that can be pre-positioned for photography. But I'm still a little confused by the layout shown - the horizontal track on the plan seems to connect to the 'NG' t/t at the left-hand end, then expand and connect as 'BG' with the t/t at the right-hand end. The second t/t appears to be mixed gauge, but I can't decipher whether there is a BG exit track running upwards and a NG alongside (maybe sharing a common rail?), or just the BG spur. On the horizontal section, maybe the short NG piece before the apparent 'widening' was simply a 'headshunt' for NG wagons being turned on the left-hand t/t? But if so, what would have stopped them running off the track where it went wide to (their) gauge?
David L-T

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:47 am

No no no! Much too complicated. The cranes are standard guage and usually run on the track which is mostly out of the map image (only one rail visible) The badly drawn rail is the one for the loaded/unloaded wagons which enter it via the wagon turntables. There are photos of the track formation in use at the downriver corner and further up along the wharf, and the track plan shows a link between the tracks by turnout so that the cranes can move away (fuel, water, repair?).There is no broad guage, move along, nothing to see here.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:25 am

dal-t wrote:I don't have much of an idea where Connah's Quay is (was?),


The town is still there, although the docks have long since ceased to be used. It's on the southern shore of the Dee estuary, between Flint and Chester. Although the GWR got to Chester, it was over standard gauge track; the area north of Wolverhampton was always standard gauge.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
stephenfreeman
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:13 am

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby stephenfreeman » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:31 pm

Hi,

Pretty certain that the docks were part of the Wrexham Mold and Connahs Quay Railway absorbed by the GCR, so no GWR influence!
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.trackandsignals.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8tkf7uW9Ec_Ox2cprxikMA

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Noel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:08 pm

stephenfreeman wrote:Pretty certain that the docks were part of the Wrexham Mold and Connahs Quay Railway absorbed by the GCR, so no GWR influence!


Basically true about the docks, although the port itself pre-dated even the Buckley Railway, the predecessor of the WM&CQR. I only mentioned the GWR to make the point that even they didn't manage to get the broad gauge so far north, the companies it took over to get to Chester and Birkenhead being standard gauge, and remaining so after the takeover [in many respects, the beginning of the end for the broad gauge]. So far as no GWR influence is concerned, it depends on your point of view; the railway history of the Wrexham area was significantly influenced by the competition between the WM&CQR and the GWR, with occasional interference by the LNWR. The GCR was a late arrival. From my point of view it's an interesting area, because from the 1930s to the 1950s you could see GWR and LNER locos more or less side by side, from Croes Newydd and Rhosddu sheds respectively [and that's upset the spell checker!]
Regards
Noel

User avatar
John Bateson
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby John Bateson » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:24 pm

The original docks were owned by the Buckley Railway.
The line from Buckley split and joined the LNWR to the west and went under the LNWR line into the docks - see Act of 1860.
The original line from the WM&CQ Railway (over the LNWR by bridge at Shotton) had a loop to the west which eventually connected up with the Buckley Railway docks area, although at first it went only as far as the chemical works, I think the Wepre River was the boundary. The BR docks were horse run in 1862 (allegedly) but there seems to be some record of altercation(s) between the BuckleyTraders and the WM&CQ engine drivers who would not enter the 'private sidings'. Anybody who can rationalise what actually happened has my admiration.
The myriad of proposals, mainly from the WM&CQ Railroad during the early 1860s gave me such a headache trying to follow them that I was thankful that the GC took over the lot in 1905 - which was my starting point for my interest in modelling.
I am not sure that the Buckley Railway can be called the predecessor of theWM&CQ Railroad. They had different objectives at the start, the WM&CQ had much bigger plans over differnt routes.
And don't forget to chop the J72 chimneys down at the Buckley Railway end!
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:21 pm

As far as I can tell the WM&CQR ran the Buckley Railway, but it remained technically a seperate entity although the stock was interchangeable (apart from the trader wagons which were confined to the Buckley branch) and the timetables were integrated. There was a railway stable at Connah's Quay according to the various plans, though there is no indication as to it's period of use.I'm aiming for a date immediately prior to the final takeover by the GCR on my layout, with some historical "might have beens" included, though these will be mostly off-scene and designed to allow some interesting variations to traffic rather than structures (probably). At any rate the first section which I am working on is the historical first dock and quay.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby Noel » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:52 pm

John Bateson wrote:I am not sure that the Buckley Railway can be called the predecessor of theWM&CQ Railroad


Predecessor at the docks...

jon price wrote:As far as I can tell the WM&CQR ran the Buckley Railway, but it remained technically a seperate entity


According to J I C Boyd the WM&CQ worked the Buckley from 1866 and leased it for 999 years [effectively in perpetuity] in 1873. Both were taken over by the GC wef 1.1.1905. It's also mentioned on the WRRC website http://www.wrrc.org.uk/wm&cqrc.php, but I don't know if that is from an independent source or from Boyd.

John Bateson wrote:And don't forget to chop the J72 chimneys down at the Buckley Railway end!


I keep looking at the few photographs that I have found and wondering if the original chimneys were cut down, or replaced by second-hand ones. Do either of you know, please?

My apologies, Jon, for hijacking your thread.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:55 pm

No hijacking taking place as far as I'm concerned Noel. the discussion is leading where it wants to, as I have resolved the weighbridge issue to my satisfaction.

I think most info on the WM&CQR is to be found in Boyd, even though he has some peculiar lapses, such as no photograph of Loco No14 (I found several in Hawarden Archive, after building a conjecutral loco which is as a result now back in the shop), his oversimplification of the information on trader wagons, and his ambiguous livery detail which looks like a typo and is less clear than the info in Carters "Liveries" which must draw on the same source(s). John's decision to focus on the post GCR period is clearly very sensible, even if you can't work out what happened to the chimneys.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
John Bateson
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby John Bateson » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:17 pm

http://walesher1974.org/herumd.php?linktable=her_source1_link&group=CPAT&level=3&docid=301362748%20target%20=

This archeological survey gives some interesting views of then and now (overlaid). Try Figs 2,5,6, they should relate to information already published herein. Again it uses Boyd as a reference with issues noted earlier.
I think that east of the Wepre River/Book/Gutter is all really WM&CQ build. The chemical works I mentioned earlier closed in 1876 and seems well within the Buckley Railway area.

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby jon price » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:36 pm

Looks like this might be interesting but I can't open .php files, and after downloading a file viewer all I got was pages of code.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
MarkS
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:15 am

Re: Is this a weighbridge?

Postby MarkS » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:30 pm

Try using this - National Library of Scotland map images.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebysi ... ht=BingHyb

You can look at "side by side" images of the same place or "Explore georeferenced maps" and then use the "Change transparency of overlay:" slider to go from the chosen map to today's Bing satellite image.
There are different maps (I used OS Six Inch 1888-1913) and eras to choose from as well.
Quite addictive...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."


Return to “Track and Turnouts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest