Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:25 pm

Reading Noel Anderson's article on wagon sheets in the latest News rang a bell with me. I had been looking through some photographic books recently and had seen a photo showing a couple of Plate wagons in a siding and both were sheeted up. Given that the length of these Plate wagons exceeds the standard length stated in Noel's article, these sheets were obviously some of the specialist ones Noel mentioned. I had a check back through the books and found the wagons in question. The one furthest from the camera looks like it could have two sheets, one overlapping the other, or it could be a crease designed to fool the likes of me. The wagon nearest the camera however, does look to have only one sheet, covering the full length of the wagon and overlapping the end by a foot or so. It looks like a BR Plate wagon which had a body length of around 28 feet so assuming an equal overlap at each end that would make the sheet somewhere in the region of 30 feet long. Can anyone out there enlighten me as to the dimensions of such sheets. It would be really useful to know in the pursuit of getting things as right as one possibly can.

For those interested, the photo in question can be found in East Anglian Steam Gallery, Part 2, about halfway through. There are no page numbers but you can't miss them. I should also say that the wagons are not the main subject of the photo but, as I say, you can't miss them.

Thanks.
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Noel
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Noel » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:07 pm

Not having the photo in question, I can only speculate, but I would expect that both Plates have two sheets, at least into the mid-1960s [I haven't looked at later plastic sheets as they're outside my period of interest]. I haven't come across any reference to single sheets large enough to cover a Plate, which doesn't prove much, but the weight and size of such a sheet in the traditional canvas would make it very difficult to handle. Plates don't ever seem to have been sheeted normally, although some of the Coil conversions of the mid-1960s may have been.
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Noel

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:13 pm

Thanks Noel, much appreciated. I can have twice the fun putting two sheets on each wagon!
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:37 pm

I'm with Noel. Sheets were standardised very early and multiples would be used if needed for a special load. A small stock of non-standard sheets for occasional use would have been far more trouble than they were worth,
Rgds
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:39 pm

Thanks Keith.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:37 pm

At our Area Group meeting on Monday night I had a chance to examine the photograph under very good lighting and it is obvious that there are two sheets on each wagon. Thanks to those who took the time to comment.

John.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Once again, I can't believe how long it has been since I last posted. Most of the intervening period has been taken up building wagons for our Area Group layout, North Elmham. Anyway, I rather belatedly thought that an account of my build of a Geen/Rumney GWR O57 milk tank wagon might provide some interest. I have completed the basic chassis already so please forgive me and I'll try to cover what I did as best as I can.

The basic chassis frame starts out as a flat etch (is there any other kind?) onto which the upright sections of the channel are added, followed by the bottom section. Its all fairly simple stuff for those familiar with etched kit construction with locating tabs to ensure that you get the alignments correct. I used a mix of resistance soldering, using the methods described by David Brandreth in the News, and conventional soldering.

Once the basic channel section of the chassis has been completed, the sides can be folded up and the spring tabs folded in. I also drilled 1mm. holes for the crosshead stays at this stage. They can be seen in one of the following photos, close to the edge of the chassis. The instructions recommend drilling 1mm. in order to give some wriggle room when fitting the stays, which pass through 0.5mm. holes in the overlays which are added later on.

DSCN0058.JPG


DSCN0061.JPG


As mentioned, the overlays need to be drilled 0.5mm. for the crosshead stays and this photo shows these. They should be drilled 10mm. either side of the centre line and 2mm. in from the edge of the overlay. Some careful marking out produced the result shown.

DSCN0063.JPG


The solebars come next and as it says in the instructions are a bit of a three-handed job. They can be a little tricky as I recall from building the LMS 2000 gallon tank. Having thought about it, I have come up with a way of turning it into a much more manageable two-handed job. You start with three parts for each solebar, a top section, a bottom section and the overlay that suits the prototype you're building. It looks like this.

DSCN0075.JPG


Now take the overlay and slot it into the tabs on the lower half of the solebar. Tack solder the parts together at the ends and you should have something that looks like this.

DSCN0076.JPG


Next, bring the remaining two parts together at a slight angle to allow the tabs on the top of the overlay to slot into the top section of the solebars. Tack solder the ends again and when happy that everything aligns, solder up the slots on the top and bottom. Clean up and it should look like this.

DSCN0079.JPG


Lastly, fit the numberplate, horse hooks, label etches and spring stops. The finished article should look something like this. Numberplate and label clip positions do vary so check your prototype.

DSCN0073.JPG


That's it for now. As always, if you have any questions please ask.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:49 pm

Firstly, an update on yesterday's posting. In order to continue the build, I needed to find the tank strap securing brackets and they were being elusive. In the course of finding them, I came across a little bag with some spring stops in it. There was also a note from Justin Newitt saying that I was to use them instead of the ones on the etch. The same ones that are shown in yesterdays posting! I remembered that when I fitted the spring castings to the 2000 gallon tank wagon that there hadn't been much of a gap between them and the spring stops. I should have used these new found ones on that wagon too but its too late now. It wasn't too late to change things on this one though so that's what I did. The following photo gives a comparison between the two different size of spring stop.

DSCN0083.JPG


To continue with the build then, on the rear of each solebar are some etched holes which are used to guide a 0.35 drill through the solebar overlay. The instructions speak of using a 0.3mm. drill for this job but I prefer the slightly larger drill. The solebar brackets are then pinned to the solebars using 0.3mm. wire passed through the bracket and through the solebar. These wires are in very close proximity to each other and I felt that it would be best to use the solebar as a template and drill the bracket holes into a piece of hard plastic. (For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Perhaps someone can put me out of my misery). 0.3mm. wire was then placed into the holes, the solebar placed over them, followed by the brackets and then they are soldered and tidied up. The next few photos show this sequence.

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This last photo shows the finished article with small pieces of 0.6mm. od x 0.4mm. id tube soldered in place on the brackets to replicate the securing nuts.

DSCN0095.JPG


Both solebars are now complete and the next job will be to attach them to the chassis which I will cover next time.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:41 pm

Having said that I would cover the attachment of the solebars to the chassis this time, it seems that there wasn't very much to say about such a straightforward task that would be of benefit or particular interest, so I went ahead and soldered them in place. The next phase of construction involves fitting the basic brake gear. The first thing to say is that some of these parts are very delicate which is, after all, what makes them look so good, but for me, it comes at a price. I have built a couple of similar brake gears from Rumney kits in the past and whilst I got there in the end in both cases, it was by no means straightforward for me. I emphasise "for me" as I'm sure others won't necessarily tie themselves in knots like I did! The instructions tell you to leave the 0.3mm. wire pin at the end of the brake link long in order to fit that end of the brake linkage. The first photo shows the wire pins drilled into a piece of plywood using the parts as a jig. The parts are then layered onto the pins and soldered up. The second photo shows the same parts soldered up and the wire pins cut short, apart from the afore-mentioned one. I hope that's clear, apologies if not. Please ask if you want anything clarified.

DSCN0100.JPG


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These brake yokes are then twisted through ninety degrees where they join the lever linkage just fitted. Then the main brake linkage is temporarily fitted to both yoke assemblies using the long wire, which is bent over to keep the linkage in place. This was when the trouble started for me as the yoke assemblies kept falling off. Every time I fitted one assembly, the other fell off! There is only so much fun one can handle at any one time and having reached the limit, I separated the yoke assemblies from the main linkage and fitted the yoke assemblies to the brake shoes and soldered them in place. The assemblies are handed so its important to ensure that you are fitting them at the correct end. There are a number of clear photos in the instructions so if you do lose track of things you can verify if all is well by referring to these. I found it easier to then thread the main brake linkage onto the long wire pins at either end, solder them up and cut the pins back to form bolts. The next photo shows the end result of all this but there was a further, quite unusual problem to solve.

DSCN0103.JPG


Just to the right of centre you can see a linkage that goes up to and is attached to the underframe. There is a part of the kit which has an attachment point for this linkage. This part is soldered to the underframe cross member at an earlier stage of construction. I always clean the assembly after each modelling session and it would seem that during one of these clean-up sessions, this part came off and is probably nestling in the bottle trap of my bathroom sink. Rather than getting involved in a late night plumbing session, I decided to solder a piece of 0.3mm. wire across the underframe after threading the end of the brake linkage onto it and this is what you can see in the next two photos. Whilst it isn't correct, it does at least hold the brake gear at the correct height and in the correct position. I doubt it will make any difference to the appearance of the finished model.

DSCN0106.JPG


DSCN0113.JPG


The brake cross shaft is temporarily fitted but the instructions state that 0.6mm. wire should be used. I found that the shaft was quite loose so I fitted 0.8mm. instead which is a much better fit.

More next time. As always, if you have any questions, please ask.
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Jeremy Good
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Jeremy Good » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:36 pm

Making good progress John. The brake gear looks suitably fine and, as ever, with a Justin kit suitably complicated but comprehensive.

I’ve been considering then brake gear on my P22 hopper and can’t decide whether that’s a job for the RSU or just the normal iron. What have you used for the brakegear so far? I usually end up flooding the joints with solder by mistake and often lose much of the finer detail using my normal iron. Would the RSU prevent that or do I just need to be more careful?

Looking forward to seeing the next steps.

Jeremy

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby John Palmer » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:36 pm

Lord Colnago wrote:... a piece of hard plastic. (For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Perhaps someone can put me out of my misery).

Looks like a sheet of Tufnol. I find the heat resistant property of this material very useful as a mounting for jigs to locate small parts that need to be soldered together.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby bécasse » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:39 pm

John Palmer wrote:
Lord Colnago wrote:... a piece of hard plastic. (For the life of me I can't remember what its called. Perhaps someone can put me out of my misery).

Looks like a sheet of Tufnol. I find the heat resistant property of this material very useful as a mounting for jigs to locate small parts that need to be soldered together.

I use off-cuts of 4mm MDF which is very easy to drill accurately but will grip adequately wire of the same diameter as the drill (or even a little smaller). It is surprisingly heat resistant too, especially when using 145º or 188º solders with a temperature-controlled iron. Using high temperature silver-content solders will usually produce scorch marks, reducing the number of times that the same holes can be reused (but it is very easy to drill a new set).

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:19 am

Tufnol! That's the word that wouldn't come to me. Thanks John.

Hi Jeremy, the answer is that its really a horses for courses situation. You can use the resistance iron for things like adding the overlays to the brake yokes and attaching them to the brake shoes but I prefer a normal iron for jobs like attaching the main brake linkage to the brake yokes. Its personal preference really. Whatever works for you.

Hi David, yes MDF is good stuff for the type of jobs we're talking about here. I use ply because I can obtain an endless supply of offcuts from a very nice man I know.

Thanks to all for your comments.
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dmsmith
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby dmsmith » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:06 pm

Apologies for hijacking the thread. This is my attempt at a David Geen/Rumney Models O57. I've built three tanks, each to different diagrams (so far!). They represent, without doubt, some of my most enjoyable modelling, from researching how the brakegear is meant to go together using the diagrams on the Rumney Models website, to building the kits, all with a conventional iron. I suspect, however, that you'll make a better job than I did of mine!

David
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:23 am

Hi David,

That doesn't look bad at all and if you've built three then you're one and a half ahead of me! Thanks for showing it.

John.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:43 am

That looks excellent David, well done. Three quarters of the way though one myself and I can only hope my one will turnout half as good.

Dave

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:19 pm

More progress. This photo shows the chassis with its brake gear almost complete now.

DSCN0119.JPG


Looking along the length of the wagon. Note how the main linkage angles off to the left just after the centre axle and then angles back to the centre line again. I'm not sure whether I have overdone the angle, it doesn't look quite right to me, but then the crank is on the centre line so I don't see how it could be otherwise. Nothing is fixed on the cross shaft yet so its not too late to change things if someone out there knows exactly how it should be.

DSCN0121.JPG


Getting closer to chassis completion now. Additional V hangers have been fitted and the safety loop for the main brake linkage added.

DSCN0123.JPG


A closer view of the safety loop and additional V hanger at the non-vacuum cylinder end.

DSCN0125.JPG



The opposite end showing an additional V hanger directly behind the one on the original etch, next to the end w-Iron

DSCN0128.JPG


Finally, where I am today. The axlebox/spring castings have been fitted. The next job will be to fit the brake lever guards and the brake levers themselves. I will have to finally secure the brake cross shaft in order to do this so if you can help with the problem mentioned above, you will need to let me know by tomorrow afternoon, although I could leave the main linkage for a few days I suppose and secure everything else. Thanks in advance if you can help.
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Mike Garwood
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:01 pm

Fair play, that's awesome! One question - how do the wheels fit? I can't see an obvious missing piece in the brake rods. Hope that's not too stupid a question...

Mike

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:36 pm

No Mike, not stupid at all. You have to cut small gaps in the brake linkages in order to get the wheels in and out. Its a bit of a shame to have to do it but there's no other way. I'll cover it in due course.

John.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:37 pm

I had a change of heart as to the next jobs to do. I fitted the end castings, of which more later, the buffers and solebar corner plates. This was all straightforward stuff and needs no real explanation from me but if you do have any questions then just ask. After that it was time to fit the running plate overlays. The only thing to watch out for here is the alignment. As long as you take care with that and tack solder them to check that all is well before continuing then you should be fine. I tack soldered to the chassis cross members and cleaned them up afterwards. Here are a few photographs to show the above.

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Having got that far, well almost, disaster struck as I had almost finished fixing the overlays. This next photo explains all.

DSCN0149.JPG


Now I'm sure that most of us have all managed to do this at some time or other when building whitemetal kits but that doesn't make it any easier to take, especially as I should have been driving back from an enjoyable weekend at Wakefield instead of modelling! Time to walk away and think about things. I would recommend this strategy when things aren't quite going as you would wish. The solution will invariably come.

Despite having the offer of a replacement end from a very nice man, I thought I should at least attempt a repair. Car body filler seemed the answer but the repair would be in an exposed location on the model and I felt that a little assistance to give the filler something to grab would be in order. To this end, I drilled into the end of the melted casting using a 0.5mm. drill, after tidying it up a bit with a file. I then inserted a piece of 0.5mm. n/s wire into the whole and secured it with a dab of superglue. After the glue had set, I cut this back to the required overall width of the casting. Then it was out with the car body filler which was generously applied to the end of the casting. In order to minimise the filing required after the filler had set, I dipped a chisel bladed knife in some oil and gently trimmed off as much excess as I dare. You will have to do this immediately after applying the filler. Any later and you will just pull it off the model. The model has now been put aside to await the filler going off and I shall return to it tomorrow, all being well. Doubtless a little more filler will be required after a tidy up of the existing stuff but that's only to be expected.

These photos show the process so far and I hope this helps should you ever find yourself in a similar situation.

DSCN0150.JPG


DSCN0151.JPG


DSCN0152.JPG
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:32 am

Lord Colnago wrote:Having got that far, well almost, disaster struck


It is probably some consolation to the less experienced that such things can happen. The trick of course is to fix the damage so that when the model is finished, you cannot see the join as Eric Morecombe might have said. :thumb When I was doing my teacher training for craft teaching, if you made a mistake on a job, the trick was to fix it so the tutor did not notice. It usually worked. :)

My solution for white metal is to use low melt solder but you need to be careful not to make things worse!

Terry Bendall

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Will L
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Will L » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:02 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:
Lord Colnago wrote:Having got that far, well almost, disaster struck
...
My solution for white metal is to use low melt solder but you need to be careful not to make things worse!

I thought that, I used to be quite a dab hand at rebuilding missing bits with white metal and sculpting it back to what was intended. I see the ability to do that as one of the advantages of a white metal kit.

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Hi Terry and Will,

Yes, I did think of building the damage up with white metal but I haven't worked with it for some time, apart from tidying and fixing castings, and thought discretion might be the better part of valour in this instance, especially given the nature of the casting. I don't think that I would have hesitated had it been a bigger casting as filling and repairing with low melt solder is definitely a better, stronger method of repair.

I'll be doing some very gentle filing and shaping tonight so fingers crossed.

John.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:26 pm

As mentioned yesterday, some gentle filing and shaping has taken place and the shape of the casting has been restored. I also needed to simulate the bolts that hold the end stays in place as these had been lost when the damage took place. After drilling through with a 0.5mm. drill at the correct angle, which I had marked on the edge of the "timber", I then opened this hole up to take a short piece of 0.7mm. od x 0.5mm. id tube, which I used to simulate the bolts. A short length of 0.5mm. wire was run through the tube and into the hole drilled earlier in the running plate overlay in order to precisely align the tube whilst it was glued in place. The wire was then removed and I was back to where I started from on Sunday evening. Such is progress!

A few photos follow to show the process. The first shows the filler after filing to shape and I have started to file the step in the end, the photo usefully showing that I needed to take a bit more off!

DSCN0153.JPG


The same situation shown from the side, followed by the same view after the step had been finished. There's not a whole lot of difference is there?

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The last couple of photos show the tube fixed in place.

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DSCN0159.JPG


Hopefully I'll make some progress now that this particular drama is out of the way. The next job is the tank stays followed by the brake lever guards. Always one of my favourites!
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:42 am

Lord Colnago wrote:There's not a whole lot of difference is there?


B+ and A for effort. :D :D

Terry Bendall


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