Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Discussions of the prototypes and how to model them. Show us how you do it.
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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:38 pm

one doesn't tend to post until the work is at a level/standard where you are happy to show

Tim, I’m glad you said that. What I am working at right now is a classic example. I’ve been kindly offered assistance via the forum and my wife, hearing the occasional grumble (hmmm), has asked why I don’t seek assistance. My response is always that I need to show a greater degree of competence myself before publicly displaying that I’m nowhere near where I am trying to get to.
I’ve spent days wrestling with a problem that those more experienced would probably solve in no time at all. Mind you, the greater the success, the greater the satisfaction!
Keep smiling,
Tony

NB. Having thought more about my initial response I realise that I am doing an injustice to members of the society. Once I plucked up courage to explain where I was, what I was hoping to achieve and where I was stuck, the response I had was overwhelming. I would be nowhere near where I am now without the support, guidance and encouragement I received from members. It has been like having my own personal, private tutor and coach.
So, as a Tim said, it’s hard to show where we are until we feel that we have something to show but the benefits of doing so cannot be underestimated.
Last edited by Tonycardall on Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:47 pm

LesGros wrote:Tony,
It also occurs to me that you could find use for "Trax 3" Signalling & Lever Frames by Jeff Geary

ISBN 978-1-9064-61-5. Obtainable from Amazon.


Thanks for this advice. Having built the locking frames up to the stage where I need to start creating the ports in the tappets and the locking bars, I have worked through the book and found it most useful. The one drawback so far as I am concerned is that the programs provided do not consider that one doesn’t have an infinite number of trays.
Having said that, the benefits of the information, explanations and test programs make it a worthwhile investment.
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:33 am

(a third tip you are already doing - go back to the metalwork to give yourself a break!!)

Well Howard, 00.17 on Saturday morning and I think I've completed the puzzle. It has taken many stops and starts and restarts. I used your blank sheets to work through it with coloured pens but, so that it is reasonably legible, I've gone back to using the PowerPoint version for publication.
I'm sure it is not the most elegant solution but, unless I've made any massive errors (which wouldn't surprise me), it seems to satisfy all of the rules.
You will no doubt look firstly to see how I coped with the Conditional Locks! I thought about it briefly! Now I expect that most would consider it a cop out but, for the life of me, I can't imagine what the benefit is to lock the section signal! It cannot cause a conflicting movement and, given the location, wouldn't cause a 'read through'.
Anyway. I hope that I've got a working proposition and that I've copied it correctly from my original scribbled version.
In any event, whether I got it right or not, it's time for another break … so back to the metalwork as it's time to link the locking frames in preparation.
Regards,
Tony
SRH Locking Chart - complete - v1.pptx
(74.3 KiB) Downloaded 33 times

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:33 pm

Well done Tony and I am looking forward to having a look through it when I have a mo!

Not sure if you might have slightly misunderstood the purpose of the conditional lock - what is going on is that the Starting Signal locks all the points in Rear of it Either Way and also locks out any conflicting routes - that is, whilst the Starter is "off" all the points are locked so that they cannot be moved under the train ("Holding the road") nor a conflicting route set. Such locks are very often the most complex in the frame as there are often lots of alternative routes leading up to a signal, but usually only one behind it!

Obviously, you don't want to be able to clear the Starter with 10R when 13 happens also to be reversed since that would be a conflictct but with 13N the starter could be cleared with 10R.

Sorry if I misunderstood and am telling you what you already know there!

Of course, you COULD leave it out but you never know what Sart Alec might drop by to test the locking! And anyone who knows anything about the job always tests the oddities first!

[Edited 3 times as I had the logic round my neck - again!]

Best Wishes,

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:22 pm

Tony,
I have had a go at reverse engineering a locking table from your chart, perhaps you can compare it with the original.
SRH Table 1.xls
(17 KiB) Downloaded 41 times

Rgds
Regards
Keith
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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:45 pm

I have had a go at reverse engineering a locking table from your chart

Keith, Thank you for your excellent response. I've just taken over an hour going through it and typing a reply (with further questions) as I went through it. As I hit the button to attach a revised version of my table the site reverted to the Scalefour Home page and I lost the lot.
I need a break before doing it again!!!!
Tony :cry:
In the meantime here is my latest version revised to incorporate your comments
SRH Locking Chart - KN revisions.pptx
Edited to add the file that I failed to attach
(74.76 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:10 pm

Keith, Thank you again. The revisions necessary as a result of your thoughts have created further adjustments and I have incorporated them into the revised, latest but not final, version attached.

SRH Locking Chart - KN revisions.pptx
12-01-20 version of locking chart
(73.82 KiB) Downloaded 17 times


I have also returned your workings with further comment for your consideration. Please understand just how much I appreciate all of this.

SRH Table 1 - inc TC's comments.xls
KN's table with TC's comments
(25.5 KiB) Downloaded 22 times


Howard, if you are reading this, please download this version and ignore my previous as there were several mistakes that Keith has picked up and I have (hopefully) put right.

Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:53 pm

Of course, you COULD leave it out but you never know what Smart Alec might drop by to test the locking! And anyone who knows anything about the job always tests the oddities first!

Okay! Here it is.
This version should cover all eventualities. Howard has gotten the better of my conscience and I have attempted to incorporate the conditional locking. IE. 4 locks 10 when 13 is reversed and equally, 10 locks 4 when 13 is reversed. To facilitate the swinging conditional lock feature I have put the bridles (Pink and Blue in Tray G) at the back.
Having used every brain cell up on this puzzle I was in no position to decide if the 10 and 13 mutual locks in Tray C were still necessary so I left them there.
I am very much looking forward to receiving responses, though I admit I shall open the forum with some trepidation.
Now... a cold shower then back to the metalwork.
Thanks all,
Tony
SRH Locking Chart - V 2 incorporating conditional locking.pptx
and with conditional locking
(76.34 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:00 pm

OK, I'll do an other reverse engineer soon. Apologies I missed your lock bar butts the first time. Should have a better grip on your drawing style now. :)
Rgds
Regards
Keith
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JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:13 pm

Tonycardall wrote: Howard has gotten the better of my conscience and I have attempted to incorporate the conditional locking.


Ha gotcha!

Looks like you are making some good progress here - well done.

Sorry I have not had time to look fully through it, but fortunatley, Keith is on the case. Just to say that you have got the principle of the contitional lock correct so well done!

Just to mention that, at first glance, I think there may be a few opportunities to simplify things a bit by combining locks. For example, you are showing 10 locks 13 EW in tray 5 but you are also providing it with the puce coloured bridle which is part of the conditional lock in tray 2. You could also exten the puce coloured bridle under 13 to provide the 10 locks 14

Similarly, the 23 locks 20 in tray 1 could be moved to tray 3 by driving it via a pin on the green nib already against 23. Now whether this latter is worth doing is questionable as it does not save much metalwork and I don't *think* you are short of space (until Keither comes back ...) But I think the first one is worth doing. There may be others, but perhaps I have suggested enough for you to have a look through.

Hope that helps!

[Edited Twice again!]

Best Wishes,
Last edited by JFS on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:15 pm

Should have a better grip on your drawing style now.

Keith, thank you so much. When I retired and decided to build the model railway I had always wanted I didn’t imagine having to get to grips with so much metalwork let alone learning PowerPoint. To think that some people claim we are just playing trains.
Sorry!
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:22 pm

Howard, thank you. I’ll look at your suggestions in the morning. If I look too closely now I won’t sleep tonight. :?

I’m relieved that I have the conditional locking principle sorted. One step forward.......
I have to say that I’m torn between getting as near as possible to the actual real world arrangement and not making it too challenging for my limited ability.
I expect that real world will ultimately win over.
Regards as ever,
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:06 am

You could also extend the puce coloured bridle under 13 to provide the 10 locks 14


I apologise that this learning process is taking me so long. It must be very tedious for readers to see how slow going it all is and how many basic errors I am making.
On the attached version (V2b) I've incorporated the suggestion about adding 'locks 14' to the conditional lock. I've also renamed the trays 1 to 8 to bring it into line with the Tappet Marking Template. I'd been using Trax3 and had been using that method of identifying the trays.
When making the adjustment to lever 14 as per above I noticed that 14 did not require a release. I should have picked it up when checking Keith's reverse engineering sheet against the original chart from the SRS. Therefore, I have added 13 releases 14 into tray 3.
I'm beginning to worry that I shall add a supposed improvement that changes something crucial!
Howard, I am total agreement with you that this is fascinating once you get into it, but I think I'm ready to put it to bed now. :D
are we nearly there yet? :?

Tony

SRH Locking Chart - V 2b.pptx
V 2b dated 14-01-20
(75.25 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:25 am

For what its worth Tony, I have this thread bookmarked for study when i get around to thinking through my own lever and interlocking array .... So the more mistakes and clarifications the better as far as I am concerned ... though I can understand that you might view things slightly differently. :D

Remember, for all us bods starting out the learning curve continues to be high :thumb ;)
Tim Lee

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:57 am

I have this thread bookmarked for study when i get around to thinking through my own lever and interlocking array

Tim,
Thanks for that. It is good to know that my incompetence is doing someone some good. :thumb
Seriously, I am only too pleased to be sharing my learning process. What amazes me is that it hasn't all been gone through before. I imagined that lots of members would have already travelled this road. In fact, I suspect that they have but have done so privately and are wondering what all the fuss is about.
At least I have the benefit of trying to model a real location where there is factual evidence of the signalling and locking charts. I hate to imagine where I would be now if I was also having to plan the signalling from scratch.

I wonder if I could get away with pretending that my errors are intentional. a la Captain Mainwaring. 'I was wondering how long it would take for you to spot that.'
Regards,
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:35 pm

if you spot anywhere in the instructions that need extra explanation, please say so.

Howard, Now that I have started making up a bridle I have noticed a massive gap in the instructions. In your previous version there was a mass of information about making the nibs and how to attach them to the bridles. There was also a section on Double-ended nibs, skeleton nibs and special locks. All of this has disappeared from the current download.
Regards,
Tony

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:51 pm

Tonycardall wrote:
I apologise that this learning process is taking me so long. It must be very tedious for readers to see how slow going it all is and how many basic errors I am making.


Not at all - it can be a very iterative process for those - including me - who do this as a once in a while hobby, rather than an everyday profession! (there are not many of those people about these days!)

I suspect there may be a way to go yet, but don't let that worry you. Ultimately, the trick is to come up with something that delivers all the functionality with minimum work to do.

Sorry I have not really been able to find the time to go through things in detail, but I have just spotted that in your latest version, 4 locks 13EW is duplicated in tray 8. In truth it would be possible to put the conditional lock in tray 8 along with all the other EW locks on 4, but since you are not stuck for space it is not worth the complication in the metal bashing.

After a while looking at these things, your eye develops a habit of looking up and down all the tappets and seeking out these duplicates and also any opportunities to combine things - it is also true the when we make alterations to the desugn, there can be unintended consequences - so one step at a time!

Good luck,

JFS
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby JFS » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:05 pm

Tonycardall wrote:... I have noticed a massive gap in the instructions. ...


Rather worried about his - let me look into it.

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:37 pm

4 locks 13EW is duplicated in tray 8.

Drat, another one that I missed. Obviously, the duplication was created when the penny eventually dropped regarding conditional locks. I didn't think to check for duplications.
Thanks Howard

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:46 pm

Suffering from impatience, I've decided to go ahead with creating some of the bridles and, to prove what a benefit and curse cameras are, I've attached a picture of a very small section of the frame. One additional reason for showing this piece of work is to demonstrate the way that 8, (in the centre) releases 7 and 9 either side, each of which locks the other by means of the bridles butting up together.
The instructions repeatedly prompt us to pay attention to detail and to work slowly and accurately. I'm sure that there is much to criticise in my work but, (and it's a big butt), the four bridles made and fitted so far work like a dream.

I should probably wait until receiving further feedback from Keith as to whether I've created any conflicts and Howard as to short cuts and more professional means of achieving the locking.

As I opened with, I suffer from impatience and whilst I am working on this I'm not running trains so ....
8 releases 7 and 9.jpg
8 releases 7 and 9. 7 locks 9 and 9 locks 7

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:17 pm

Attached revers engineered table from your latest.
This time I included a listing of the bridles then the locking table.
Apart from the duplication of 4 locks 13 noted by Howard there are two possible issues noted that need attention, shown on the bridle list.
SRH Table 1 - inc TC's comments.xls
(25.5 KiB) Downloaded 21 times

Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:46 pm

Apart from the duplication of 4 locks 13 noted by Howard there are two possible issues noted that need attention, shown on the bridle list.

Keith, I am so very grateful. I have now removed the port and nib in 14 from tray 4; moved 11 releases 13 bridle from tray 5 to tray 6; and removed the duplicate port and nib from 13 in tray 8.
So long as there are no further comments from Howard I will now get on with completing the bridles and testing the locks.
Thanks again,
Tony

SRH Locking Chart - V 2d.pptx
15-01-20 version
(74.68 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:09 pm

Attached reverse engineered table from your latest

Eureka! I have checked Keith’s reverse engineered table against the Southam Road and Harbury signal box locking table provided by the Signalling Record Society and they are identical.
My design is almost certainly not the most logical but it seems to work.
I am so grateful to all concerned, most especially Howard and Keith, now I’ll get on with the physical locks and let you know how I get on.
Tony

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Tonycardall
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby Tonycardall » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:18 pm

After a while looking at these things, your eye develops a habit of looking up and down all the tappets

One step forward, two steps back! I have a motto that I try always to apply but rarely remember. "The more confident I am, the more I need to look for where I have gone wrong".
I thought that the previous version of the locking frame was to be the last one. Oh dear!
Now that I am starting to make up the bridles I've noticed some obvious deficiencies.
The port in lever 11, tray 4 should be in tray 5 to release 13 when 11 is reversed.
The port in lever 10, tray 2 locks 14 and locks 13 either way BUT, means that when 10 is reversed 11 is NOT locked and could be moved under a train.

I think that I need to drop the whole of the 11 releases 10 and 12; 10 locks 12; 12 locks 10 down 1 tray.

V2e attached
SRH Locking Chart - V 2e - 170120.pptx
(75.55 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Lever frame mk 2 and the locking frame

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:53 pm

The port in lever 10, tray 2 locks 14 and locks 13 either way BUT, means that when 10 is reversed 11 is NOT locked and could be moved under a train.

Sorry, I missed that one.
Your solution looks OK.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings


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