Carriage identity query

John Palmer
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Carriage identity query

Postby John Palmer » Fri May 10, 2019 11:31 am

Would appreciate thoughts on the identity of the leading vehicle of an inter-regional train at Midsomer Norton at some date after 1953, as shown below:
Mystery coach at Midsomer Norton.jpg
Mystery coach at Midsomer Norton.jpg (132.64 KiB) Viewed 1246 times
I have a possible candidate for the carriage design in question, but won't mention it yet to inhibit possible confirmation bias.

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Noel » Fri May 10, 2019 3:07 pm

With only limited confidence, ex-GWR RTO to diagram H48 https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA8702A24#ha8702a24? (As originally built they had no window vents, being air conditioned, and only acquired them at some point in BR days.)

Incidentally, as the second vehicle appears to be an ex-LMS period 3 brake in maroon, the earliest possible date would be summer 1956.
Regards
Noel

IANATEXTON
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby IANATEXTON » Fri May 10, 2019 9:25 pm

John,

I agree that it is an ex Great Western coach, but I think that what we see is the corridor side of a diagram C73 corridor third of 1937. These had full height drop lights opposite the compartment doors, but the only doors on the corridor side were at the ends.

I will scan a picture from the Russell book (Appendix vol 1) tomorrow.
Ian

John Palmer
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby John Palmer » Sat May 11, 2019 12:08 am

Noel, yours is a fascinating suggestion, given the rarity of those two RTO's, but I think that on the corridor side the vehicle in question is symmetrically laid out, whereas the RTO has a longer 'blanked off' section at the end where the air conditioning unit and lavatory compartments are located. In view of the absence of any visible lavatory windows I believe the picture shows the corridor side of the vehicle, and that being the case I would also expect to see some sign of the grilles for the aircon below the waist if this were one of the RTOs.

My own candidate was a GW Diagram C70 gangwayed third, coming from the designs variously known as 'Sunshine' or 'New-Type' carriages, but on closer examination of the photograph I think I can make out the slightly inset side corridor droplights between the longlights, so I think Ian has made the better suggestion that this is indeed a C73 gangwayed third. This would also account for the absence of any ventilator frames as found on the C70s, a feature that was puzzling me somewhat. Fig. 123 in Russell's GW Coaches Appendix Vol. 1 shows well the design in question.

Thanks, Ian, I think you have nailed it!

The enormous variety of carriage designs worked over the S&D is one of the reasons I find the line so fascinating. Where else in the country might you expect to see, in the course of a single day's observations, carriage designs from all four of the Group companies with a healthy leavening of even older vehicles? Gangwayed and non-gangwayed coaches of LSW panelled design to be seen on Bournemouth-Bath locals, Bain and Reid vehicles on Branch services, special traffic sets predominantly composed of Ironclads, and a sprinkling of pre-group designs on holiday trains from the North: LNW elliptical roofed corridors (quite common) and odd examples from the GE and GC (rare).

IANATEXTON
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby IANATEXTON » Sat May 11, 2019 6:42 am

John
As promised here is a scan of a diagram C73 coach.

It is amazing how frequently the GWR changed the design of its coaches. Previously on some batches there had been doors along the corridor side, opposite each of the compartment doors. In this design the doors were no longer present, but droplights remained.

Ian
Attachments
GWR diagram C73 corridor third (2).jpg

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Noel » Sat May 11, 2019 9:47 am

I was reading the picture as showing eight large windows only, but I wasn't entirely convinced, since the windows in H48 were flush with the side. I hadn't considered droplights between the main windows, which explains the visible pattern far better. I agree C73 seems to be the most likely.
Regards
Noel

nf.newling
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:27 am

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby nf.newling » Sat May 11, 2019 5:07 pm

Sorry guys, I see 8 equally sized windows and droplights only in the end doors - C70 for me.

Philip Hall
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Philip Hall » Sat May 11, 2019 6:26 pm

I agree with Nigel that there are eight big windows and a couple of droplights at the ends. I can’t see any droplights between the big windows.

Philip

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Noel » Sat May 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I agree with Nigel that there are eight big windows and a couple of droplights at the ends. I can’t see any droplights between the big windows.

I thought that originally, Philip. However, as I observed earlier, I wasn't sure about my identification. The reason was those bright verticals between the large windows, with dark bars at the top of several. These I now think are showing like that because they mark the (full height) recessed droplights, which are otherwise not visible at the angle the photo was taken from; compare the effect with that created by the end droplights. I can't currently think of another explanation for them, given that C73 was flush sided.

nf.newling wrote:Sorry guys, I see 8 equally sized windows and droplights only in the end doors - C70 for me.


Sorry, Nigel, it's not C70 since that had ventilators, and the tops of the end door droplights were level with the top of the main windows.
Regards
Noel

John Palmer
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby John Palmer » Sun May 12, 2019 1:47 am

I've been trawling for foreshortened views of Sunshine/New-Style carriages in the hope that they might shed some additional light on this issue. Here is an extract from a picture of the Up Cambrian Coast Express at Snow Hill in 1960, which I have enlarged and massaged in the hope of getting some more detail out of it. I have also shown the same extract as snipped from the original at https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1283.htm:
New-Style carriages at Snow Hill.jpg
New-Style carriages at Snow Hill.jpg (138.54 KiB) Viewed 952 times

I'm uncertain as to the identity of either vehicle. I think the maroon-liveried carriage to right of shot may be a Diagram E151 composite, corridor side showing, and that the carmine-and-cream liveried carriage to left of shot may be a Diagram C77 third, but I may have got that completely wrong.

Regardless of exact vehicle identities, I think the photograph assists in showing that the bottom edge of the longlight ventilators are quite noticeable in a foreshortened view such as this. It's for that reason that I think that if the vehicle in the Midsomer Norton shot were a C70 then I would expect to see the bottom edge of the ventilators in the corridor longlights. I say that on the assumption that the C70's did have ventilators in the corridor longlights, as seems to be the case judging by Fig.118 in Russell's Appendix Vol.1, which I take to show the corridor side of one of these vehicles.

billbedford
Posts: 670
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby billbedford » Sun May 12, 2019 9:12 am

nf.newling wrote:Sorry guys, I see 8 equally sized windows and droplights only in the end doors - C70 for me.


Look at the deep shadows at the tops of the spaces between the windows, just the same as the end droplights.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

nf.newling
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:27 am

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby nf.newling » Sun May 12, 2019 10:18 am

New picture definitely shows the compartment side of a C77, as per picture GWCA Vol 1 pg 51 plate 128. Are we sure the corridor side of coaches in this era had ventilators? Where is Mr Geen when you need him? :-)

I now buy C73. You cannot see the fixed windows, only the droplights between them.
Last edited by nf.newling on Sun May 12, 2019 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

essdee
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:47 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby essdee » Sun May 12, 2019 10:33 am

Fascinating detective work on the ex GWR carriage... John, do you know what the working was; I am puzzled by a WR strengthening coach on an LMR express (presumably) to the south coast?

I do pay some attention to post 1923 S&D matters, you see!

Steve

John Palmer
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby John Palmer » Sun May 12, 2019 11:36 am

essdee wrote:John, do you know what the working was; I am puzzled by a WR strengthening coach on an LMR express (presumably) to the south coast?

Steve, the photograph from which I snipped the queried carriage is another from Ron Toop's collection, and can be viewed in full at https://www.flickr.com/photos/midsomer-norton-south-station/7264158302/in/album-72157629882634822/. Unfortunately the full picture doesn't show any reporting number carried by the pilot, so no help from that quarter. Going by the position of the shadows I estimate that the picture was taken in the period 3/0 to 4/30. I could be imagining it (wishful thinking at work?) but think that the 5th vehicle may be a 12 wheel diner. The time frame and the (possible) presence of a diner would be consistent with this being the Down 'Pines' (10.20 off Manchester, Midsomer Norton pass at 3/30), and it seems common for the dining car to have appeared as 4th vehicle in the 'Pines' formation before addition of any strengthener at the head end. But I am well into the realms of speculation here.

John Palmer
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby John Palmer » Sun May 12, 2019 11:49 am

nf.newling wrote:New picture definitely shows the compartment side of a C77, as per picture GWCA Vol 1 pg 51 plate 128.
Agreed, that was the basis of my identification.

nf.newling wrote:Are we sure the corridor side of coaches in this era had ventilators?
It seems that mostly they did not, but that the C70s were an exception. Due to the absence of any lavatory windows I'm fairly confident that fig. 118 in Russell's Appendix Vol.1 does show the corridor side of a C70 with ventilators. Also, I think you can faintly make out the interior handrail along the corridor.

essdee
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:47 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby essdee » Sun May 12, 2019 1:52 pm

Thanks John, I have had a look at the full image, and would agree with you on the fourth maroon vehicle being a 12wh one. Even allowing for it being further round the curve, it looks significantly longer than the preceding carriages. Down Pines sound a good bet, I note there are destination boards on the maroon carriages.

So, could this have gained a WR strengthener at Cheltenham, since the Pines does not call at Bristol TM? I am stumped for anywhere else, and really it looks too modern a carriage to be standing idle at Cheltenham..?? Or have I missed some post-war through working, attached to The Pines? Whatever, rather a fascinating modelling opportunity for someone.

(You may tell that I am at long last getting down to S&D through train formations, albeit for the early 1920s. I have been too long away.....)

Philip Hall
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Philip Hall » Sun May 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Re the original post, I can see now (just) the droplights between the big windows. I passed the picture to a good friend who knows more about GW carriages than I ever will, and he reckons it’s a C73 as well. Unlikely the droplights would be fixed, I gather.

Philip

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Carriage identity query

Postby Noel » Sun May 12, 2019 5:19 pm

John Palmer wrote:Due to the absence of any lavatory windows I'm fairly confident that fig. 118 in Russell's Appendix Vol.1 does show the corridor side of a C70 with ventilators. Also, I think you can faintly make out the interior handrail along the corridor.


That page shows both sides of C70, since one photo shows lavatory windows and the other two do not. Both sides have ventilators (Russell sometimes got things wrong, but both numbers are readable in this case).

essdee wrote:So, could this have gained a WR strengthener at Cheltenham, since the Pines does not call at Bristol TM? I am stumped for anywhere else, and really it looks too modern a carriage to be standing idle at Cheltenham..??


If it was a strengthener, then I would suggest that Gloucester is more likely, as the two stations were close together, which they were not at Cheltenham. All of the other stock visible is in maroon, but our C73 [or whatever!] has not been repainted, suggesting that it is marked down for withdrawal in the not to distant future and will probably go, with so many older GWR coaches, around 1960, with virtually all pre-war GW coaches going extinct by 1962. All the other coaches being in maroon suggests a date probably not before about 1958, but before 40569 left Templecombe in October 1961.
Regards
Noel


Return to “Coaches and NPCS”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests