Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

richard49
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Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:12 pm

Has anyone attempted to convert the Hornby H Class to P4? I have two Hornby locos of this engine, and a Southeastern Fineccast chassis. To my mind there are two possible solutions.
1. Use the Southeastern Finecast chassis.
2. Use an Alan Gibson Wheel Set for the M7 conversion which has 3mm axles.
Immediate issues with option 2 are that the Hornby axles are 2 mm so would require some sort of sleeve to accommodate 2 mm axles and 3mm bore on the wheels, not impossible but requires finding brass tubing with the correct inside and external diameter.
Option 1; I have a SEF chassis and it looks like it would require a lot of surgery to make it fit.
Additional issue with eiher options is the need to ensure sufficient clearance in the splashers which will require removing a large amount of material, I have measured it and think it possible, but not easy.
Any comments would be welcome.

David Knight
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby David Knight » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:41 pm

I’ve been messing about with an SEF “P” class chassis to convert the Hattons offering. To get the ride height correct I found it necessary to take about 1mm off the top of the SEF frame and lower the spacer slots and modify some spacers as well. It is a bit of a faff but seems to be working out but unfortunately a house move has stopped progress. Long story short, it is possible but does require a bit of patience. On the plus side the SEF chassis can be compensated or sprung whereas the Hornby would be rigid.

Cheers,

David

richard49
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:11 pm

Many thanks for those thoughts. I think it is possible to adapt the SEF chassis but it might take a bit of butchery. I agree that this allows the opportunity to introduce sprung chassis, or compensation (whatever your preference), however the Hornby set up runs beautifully, if a simple (?) drop in conversion is possible I would probably go for that. There are issues with clearances with all options.

Philip Hall
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:36 pm

Richard,

I haven't yet been asked to convert an H Class but I suspect one may be in the offing. I am not surprised Hornby have used a 2mm axle diameter as they seem to do this a bit these days. There are three options with 3mm axle wheelsets (or 1/8", come to that). One is to turn up some axles with reduced diameter ends - this is only any good if you have a lathe and an accurate 3mm or 1/8" collet, a 3-jaw chuck is not generally good enough. Second option is to obtain some 2mm I/D - 3mm or 1/8" O/D bushes. Third option is to mount the Hornby wheels by their axles and turn off the tyres, replacing them with Alan Gibson tyres of a suitable diameter. Again, this will only work if your lathe chuck/collet is very accurate. The centres can then be drilled out, and a friend who has done this on the Hornby Peckett reported that gently reaming the axle hole produced a good fit on a 2mm axle.

I don't have access to my Sharman wheel book just now, but I would check whether the Gibson M7 wheels are actually correct for the H. They have a 9" crank throw and have a representation of the contour where the spokes meet the tyre on a Drummond LSWR wheel which may not be correct for an SECR engine. This representation is a sort of 'half Stanier bevel', whereas the equivalent Ultrascale wheel has the correct shape. As do Hornby on their LSWR engines come to that.

Whatever you decide to do, the Hornby chassis (if it's built the same way as the M7) will give you reliable smooth running and will be quite sure footed provided your wheels are absolutely concentric, and if you take care to make sure that all eight wheels rest properly on a surface plate. You may find that washers are needed (or not) under the bogie to adjust for the differences that may exist between the Hornby wheels and replacements.

Please let us know how you get on.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kelly
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby kelly » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:38 pm

I think when I spoke with Alan after getting my first H class at Scaleforum last year he recommended a wheel that was the nearest possible match (iirc the exact wheel size is not in his range). He offered 2mm or 3mm axles iirc. I'm not at home to check what I ended up buying from him, but if I remember I'll check when I'm back home.
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richard49
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:44 pm

Many thanks to those who have responded to my query. All were helpful and raised an issue I had not fully considered, namely the wheel selection.

Philip, your response confirms that I will have to make some suitable bushes. I don't have access to a lathe
and have not used one since O Level metalwork over 50years ago! I think I have a kitchen table solution so will proceed with that. I will certainly report on progress. I will also proceed with my SEF kit of the H Class, incorporating a sprung chassis. It will be interesting to compare the results.

The choice of wheels requires further research. I am away from home at the moment but will look up my Sharman wheel book when I return.

Richard

FCA
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby FCA » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:26 pm

Don't forget also that Mr Wainwright's engines were left footers.

Richard

Philip Hall
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:20 pm

The nearest wheel I can find is Alan GIbson 4866 or 4866M, a 5’6” wheel with 11.5” or 11” throw, 18 or 17 spoke with the pin between spokes. The prototype (per the revised Society Sharman
book) is 5’6”, 16 spoke, 22” throw, pin inline. Bogie is 3’7” 10 spoke. Actual throw is more important (to me) than pin location; too great and the rods will clout the underside of the footplate, too small and the engine will look wrong as it goes along. The Hornby model, from experience of other models, will have the correct crank throw. The M7 wheel has 18 spokes, 9” throw and the wrong contour at the rim, as per my last post. If you are going to have to source bushes then a standard 1/8” axle is of no consequence.

Alan GIbson does 4M68, 1/8 to 2mm reducing bearing/sleeves so that should solve the problem. If the axles turn out to be 3mm then reaming the bearings and drive gear out to 1/8” should not be a problem.

Good luck!

Philip

PS my catalogue numbers come from a 2010 catalogue I have in the workshop, but I don’t think any new wheels around that size have been made recently. Apologies if they have!

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kelly
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby kelly » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:05 pm

Philip Hall wrote:The nearest wheel I can find is Alan GIbson 4866 or 4866M, a 5’6” wheel with 11.5” or 11” throw, 18 or 17 spoke with the pin between spokes. The prototype (per the revised Society Sharman
book) is 5’6”, 16 spoke, 22” throw, pin inline. Bogie is 3’7” 10 spoke. Actual throw is more important (to me) than pin location; too great and the rods will clout the underside of the footplate, too small and the engine will look wrong as it goes along. The Hornby model, from experience of other models, will have the correct crank throw. The M7 wheel has 18 spokes, 9” throw and the wrong contour at the rim, as per my last post. If you are going to have to source bushes then a standard 1/8” axle is of no consequence.

Alan GIbson does 4M68, 1/8 to 2mm reducing bearing/sleeves so that should solve the problem. If the axles turn out to be 3mm then reaming the bearings and drive gear out to 1/8” should not be a problem.

Good luck!

Philip

PS my catalogue numbers come from a 2010 catalogue I have in the workshop, but I don’t think any new wheels around that size have been made recently. Apologies if they have!


What you've listed is pretty much from memory what Alan told me at Scaleforum, with no other suitable wheels available unless you want to wait ages for Ultrascale...
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richard49
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:09 pm

Thanks very much everyone, very useful information.

Richard

richard49
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:28 pm

PS, loved the left footer info. I think I knew but thanks for the confirmation.

billbedford
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby billbedford » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:17 am

So how many people want H class wheels?

Drop me an email if you do.

I don't think I can do them before S4N but you shouldn't have to wait 10 months.
Bill Bedford
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Horsetan
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:17 am

billbedford wrote:So how many people want H class wheels?

Drop me an email if you do.....


I do! :thumb
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Philip Hall
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:33 am

The wait time for Ultrascale wheels is irrelevant in this case since they do not make a wheel that is any closer to the H class than Alan Gibson. Their nearest is a Fowler LMS wheel with 17 spokes but has an excessive crank throw, 13”.

Philip

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Horsetan
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Horsetan » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:23 pm

FCA wrote:Don't forget also that Mr Wainwright's engines were left footers.


Just about visible here in the Bluebell's photo of 263 under overhaul

Interesting.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Martin M
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Martin M » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:35 pm

Yes I would be interested in 2 set of H class wheels

Martin

Geoff Lines
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Geoff Lines » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:16 am

The Wainwright H Class was derived from the LC&DR R Class 0-4-4T, which also had 5ft 6in, 16-spoke wheels, with 11in throw on the crank pin. Wainwright's version of the R Class, the R1 Class, also had the same specification of driving wheel.

Other LC&DR classes also had 5ft 6in (some 5ft 7in) dia driving wheels with 16 spokes, eg A1 and A2 classes of 0-4-4T and the two classes of Scotchmen.

As I seem to be the only one who models LC&DR locos in P4 (or am I?), it probably won't help with the sale of many such driving wheels, but I'd be interested in two sets for 0-4-4Ts.

Regards

Geoff

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Horsetan
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Horsetan » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:27 pm

So that's five sets.

Wonder what the minimum quantity is that Bill would require to start production?
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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kelly
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby kelly » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm

I have two Hs currently, so two sets would be of interest.
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richard49
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby richard49 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Two sets for me as wel please.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:16 pm

billbedford wrote:So how many people want H class wheels?
Drop me an email if you do.

All you listing your wants on here might like to note what Bill wrote.
Rgds

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Horsetan
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Horsetan » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:35 pm

richard49 wrote:Has anyone attempted to convert the Hornby H Class to P4? I have two Hornby locos of this engine, and a Southeastern Fineccast chassis. To my mind there are two possible solutions.
1. Use the Southeastern Finecast chassis.
2. Use an Alan Gibson Wheel Set for the M7 conversion which has 3mm axles.
Immediate issues with option 2 are that the Hornby axles are 2 mm so would require some sort of sleeve to accommodate 2 mm axles and 3mm bore on the wheels, not impossible but requires finding brass tubing with the correct inside and external diameter.
Option 1; I have a SEF chassis and it looks like it would require a lot of surgery to make it fit.
Additional issue with eiher options is the need to ensure sufficient clearance in the splashers which will require removing a large amount of material, I have measured it and think it possible, but not easy.
Any comments would be welcome.


That reminds me that some people might still have the old Sharman Wheels for the "H" hidden away in a drawer somewhere, but Bill's modern-day solution would hopefully look a bit better!
That would be an ecumenical matter.

FCA
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby FCA » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:07 am

A long time ago at the genesis of P4 the only 5'6" wheel available was actually based on the H class wheel specification.
They were made by Studiolith, of not so blessed memory, and on whom Ultrascale had nothing in terms of waiting time.
Also they were pretty good products have shouldered axles fitting into an integral brass boss which ensured the correct back to back. However, the devil's own work to convert to split collection which is my own preference.
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Richard

IMG_0710.JPG

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Horsetan
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby Horsetan » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:17 pm

FCA wrote:A long time ago at the genesis of P4 the only 5'6" wheel available was actually based on the H class wheel specification.
They were made by Studiolith, of not so blessed memory, and on whom Ultrascale had nothing in terms of waiting time.
Also they were pretty good products have shouldered axles fitting into an integral brass boss which ensured the correct back to back. ...


Didn't those wheels end up in the Alan Gibson range?

I have a fair few of the Midland / LMS 5'2" drivers that have the brass centres, all under the Alan Gibson label, intended for a Beyer-Garratt. Once mounted, I found them near-impossible to disassemble if you get the quartering a bit wrong, as the boss will not let go of the axle....
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Wainwright H Class P4 conversion

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:48 pm

I found them near-impossible to disassemble if you get the quartering a bit wrong, as the boss will not let go of the axle...
. The original P4(Studiolith) ones have a taper fit between bush and axle, like the flywheel on a Mini or Morse drills in a lathe, the come apart very easily with a sharp tap on the axle end, some of mine have been on and off many times. This should apply to any taper fit. The taper fit did, however, require extreme accuracy in manufacture so maybe AG changed to a parallel fit when he took them over.


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