Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Help and advice for those starting in, or converting to P4 standards. A place to share modelling as a beginner in P4.
40C
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby 40C » Thu May 31, 2018 8:01 am

Tim,

Looking at your prototype photos, and comparing them to your test piece photos, you have planted the stools in the ground 90 degrees out from the correct alignment.

Gordon Luck (ex S&T Tech. 40 years ago!)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu May 31, 2018 8:07 am

40C wrote:Tim,

Looking at your prototype photos, and comparing them to your test piece photos, you have planted the stools in the ground 90 degrees out from the correct alignment.

Gordon Luck (ex S&T Tech. 40 years ago!)


Lucky its a test track :( I realised after I had bonded in the cradles and these are all I have at the moment. Trying to remove breaks the plastic as the bond is pretty strong.

I suspect I will replace all of them with the correct single cradles in due course ... but its all experimentation at the moment.
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

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Colin Parks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Colin Parks » Thu May 31, 2018 10:35 pm

Hello Tim,

Well, test tracks are there to iron out these things! I must say I had not noticed the stool issue until 40c had pointed it out. Incidentally, I think what you call 'stools' are rodding cradles - or something like that. Stools are the bases which rest on the trackbed. The main thing is that the concept works reliably.

All the best,

Colin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:10 am

Colin Parks wrote: Incidentally, I think what you call 'stools' are rodding cradles - or something like that. Stools are the bases which rest on the trackbed.


I have to say I much prefer cradle .. Stool is a less enjoyable term to use :D .. so cradle it is ;)
Tim Lee

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Colin Parks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:49 am

Ah yes Tim, but you still have to have the stools underneath the cradles. To make matters worse for your sensibilities, on the prototype, the stools are fixed to piles!

Colin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:56 am

Colin Parks wrote:Ah yes Tim, but you still have to have the stools underneath the cradles. To make matters worse for your sensibilities, on the prototype, the stools are fixed to piles!

Colin


:shock: ..... :oops: :? ..... :cry: :cry: :cry: ..... :D :lol:
Tim Lee

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:59 pm

Does anyone happen to know where I might get a "pin-point axle 1mm diameter" ? - I believe exacto did them but are they still available? I am hoping to employ Bill Bedford's ruse with a 1mm axle and 2mm tube for providing movement on the centre wheel of my 6 wheel clayton coaches.
Tim Lee

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Colin Parks
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 pm

Hi Tim,

Not being familiar with the Bill Bedford method, it is not clear to me if you would retain the pin points for the centre axle of a six-wheel coach. Presumably, the axle sideplay is controlled by the brass tube in some way, making the pin points unneccessary.

The Exactoscale 4CW 503A pack contains ten 25 mm x 1 mm plain-ended axles and ten 10 mm x 2 mm o/d brass tube. Whether these are still available, I do not know. Other than that option, you could make your own axles from piano wire (available from Eileen's Eporium for example).

Hope that helps,

Colin

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:01 pm

Colin Parks wrote:Hi Tim,

Not being familiar with the Bill Bedford method, it is not clear to me if you would retain the pin points for the centre axle of a six-wheel coach. Presumably, the axle sideplay is controlled by the brass tube in some way, making the pin points unneccessary.

The Exactoscale 4CW 503A pack contains ten 25 mm x 1 mm plain-ended axles and ten 10 mm x 2 mm o/d brass tube. Whether these are still available, I do not know. Other than that option, you could make your own axles from piano wire (available from Eileen's Eporium for example).

Hope that helps,

Colin

Hi Colin,

This is Bill's method http://www.mousa.biz/info/2011/10/six-wheeled-coaches/

I assume the Exactoscale pack is currently in limbo because of the C & L situation ... any alternative source or suggestion gratefully received :thumb

I will ponder the piano wire suggestion.
Tim Lee

John Palmer
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby John Palmer » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:43 pm

if mild steel rod isn't an acceptable material from which to manufacture your own axles, how about 1mm diameter silver steel rod? It appears not to be a standard size, so is relatively uncommon, but is advertised at, for example, https://www.coventry-grinders.co.uk/product/silver-steel-metric/. I wouldn't fancy the prospect of trying to put pinpoints onto a length of piano wire, and in any case I would expect it to be sold in coiled form, and require straightening.

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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:01 am

Tim, for the scratch built wagons on Mount Woodville I used 1mm silver steel in tubes and available from Eileen's. Cut to length, if no lathe then mount in a drill and file the pin points.
Rob
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:31 am

RobM wrote:Tim, for the scratch built wagons on Mount Woodville I used 1mm silver steel in tubes and available from Eileen's. Cut to length, if no lathe then mount in a drill and file the pin points.
Rob


Thanks Rob ... in the absence of exactoscale it sounds like the route to take. Still not saved up for a lathe yet so the drill tip is helpful. Would the brass tube suit?

Tim
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:13 pm

Hi Tim,

I wrote up how I did this - essentially using the same method that Bill describes - in my external blog. You can find this here:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/02/ ... ing-axles/

and you can see that they really do work (around a 4 foot curve) here:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/03/ ... a-reprise/

I did use exactoscale axles.


Mark
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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:27 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:
Thanks Rob ... in the absence of exactoscale it sounds like the root to take. Still not saved up for a lathe yet so the drill tip is helpful.

Don't forget the RSU in your savings.... ;)......perhaps slightly more important than a lathe......

Le Corbusier wrote: Would the brass tube suit?
Tim


Yup, 2mm OS diameter and 1mm inside.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:41 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:Hi Tim,

I wrote up how I did this - essentially using the same method that Bill describes - in my external blog. You can find this here:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/02/ ... ing-axles/

and you can see that they really do work (around a 4 foot curve) here:

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/03/ ... a-reprise/

I did use exactoscale axles.


Mark


Thanks Mark,

Really helpful.

Can I ask you one more question?

How do you open out the axel boxes when using BB sprung W irons to allow the waisted bearings to move up and down freely.

Tim
Tim Lee

billbedford
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby billbedford » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:22 am

Le Corbusier wrote:How do you open out the axel boxes when using BB sprung W irons to allow the waisted bearings to move up and down freely.


Assuming the axleboxes are firmly fixed to the w-irons.
Use a 1.8 ball cutter in a dremel/micro-motor.
Before starting the motor, place the cutter into the slot in the w-iron with the cutter shaft parallel to the long side of the slot.
Start the motor on a low speed and move the cutter up and down the slot until the edges are clear.
A foot switch on the motor is very useful for this operation.

Alternatively you can file off the cylindrical nib on the bearing.
Bill Bedford
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:13 am

billbedford wrote:Assuming the axleboxes are firmly fixed to the w-irons.

I have always done mine before attaching to the W-iron, removes the risk of damaging the W-iron slots, removes the risk of dislodging the adhesive bond.
Use a 1.8 ball cutter in a dremel/micro-motor.
Before starting the motor, place the cutter into the slot in the w-iron with the cutter shaft parallel to the long side of the slot.
Start the motor on a low speed and move the cutter up and down the slot until the edges are clear.
A foot switch on the motor is very useful for this operation.

More or less, although I have not used a foot switch for this.
Alternatively you can file off the cylindrical nib on the bearing.

Do that as well, not instead, but take care not to overdo it and put a hole in the end.
Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:40 am

Thanks Bill & Kieth,

Ball cutter on order.

Tim
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:13 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:[
Can I ask you one more question?

How do you open out the axel boxes when using BB sprung W irons to allow the waisted bearings to move up and down freely.

Tim


Sorry Tim, I have not been near a computer for a bit; so I see others have got in here first.

Actually I use a cylinder burr cutter in a proxxon drill. I find it easier to control than a ball cutter. If you are looking to open up cast brass, you will find it is very hard and you are going to be at it for a little while and are likely to get hot fingers.

If I am cutting plastic axle boxes I often skip this and just use a scalpel blade as a burr is too aggresive and before long you have little axle box left and you are even working on your fingers!




Mark
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:58 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:[
Can I ask you one more question?

How do you open out the axel boxes when using BB sprung W irons to allow the waisted bearings to move up and down freely.

Tim


Sorry Tim, I have not been near a computer for a bit; so I see others have got in here first.

Actually I use a cylinder burr cutter in a proxxon drill. I find it easier to control than a ball cutter. If you are looking to open up cast brass, you will find it is very hard and you are going to be at it for a little while and are likely to get hot fingers.

If I am cutting plastic axle boxes I often skip this and just use a scalpel blade as a burr is too aggresive and before long you have little axle box left and you are even working on your fingers!




Mark

I have the 3d printed boxes that come with Bill's kits and some 3 L white metal boxes. In previous attempts with a scalpel on the 3d printed boxes I have only succeeded in fracturing the plastic and had to glue back together. In the end I filed off as much of the waisted bearing nib as possible and set the combined spring/box assembly at a slight angle to miss the bearing end, which worked but was far from satisfactory. I would be curious as to how you hold the axel box when using the scalpel ... is it bonded into position first as Bill suggests?

Tim
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:16 pm

Just thought I would post a quick thanks for the help and advice on the floating middle carriage axel for 6 wheeled stock. The silver steel rod and 2mm tube arrived yesterday and I fitted today :D

Putting pin points on the end of the rod using the dremel and a file was a piece of cake. The clayton now has Bill B sprung W irons and runs sweet as a nut .... much better than before :thumb

Tim
Tim Lee

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RobM
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby RobM » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:37 pm

Excellent Tim....... :thumb :thumb
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:37 pm

Well done Tim

I suspect like me; you won't bother with any other technique going forward.
Mark Tatlow

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:36 am

Sounds good Tim! :)

Any chance of a photo or two? Only if you have time.

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Making a Start - The Peak District Midland / Monsal Dale pre 1903

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:16 pm

Allan,

Here are a few shots as requested.

One of the point rodding again .... now with boards hiding the omega loop complete with figure plus a couple of details.

10-6-18 - 3.jpg
10-6-18 - 7 (1).jpg
10-6-18 - 6 (1).jpg


A few of the floating centre wheel - central brass tube and silver steel rod with pinpoints.

10-6-18 - 4.jpg
10-6-18 - 5.jpg


The progress on the vandalism to the base of the Clayton coach to allow installation of the BB W irons replacing the original 51L system is still ongoing. The photo shows the slop on the centre pinpoint that has been so successful. I still have to re-fit the gas cylinders and touch everything in. Looking forward to building the next one where all the mistakes on this can be avoided. Will never look pristine close up but is ok from a distance I think.

10-6-18 - 6.jpg
10-6-18 - 4 (1).jpg


.....and a few of the track with train.

10-6-18 - 7.jpg
10-6-18 - 9.jpg
10-6-18 - 1 (1).jpg
10-6-18 - 2 (1).jpg
10-6-18 - 5 (1).jpg


Amazing how much dust the camera shows up :shock: There is obviously more work to do on the clayton and the wagon - which still has to go to the paint shop. All three models are experimental - they are my first attempts - at each type respectively. Many mistakes made and much learned .... but still all will hopefully be usable if somewhat dog eared ;)

Not rapid output I admit ... but hopefully things will slowly speed up.

...also hopefully the builds will get better from here on in as well. :thumb

Still thoroughly enjoying it all though :D .... just like making things really ;)
Tim Lee


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