West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

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Daddyman
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Daddyman » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:23 am

Nice build, thanks for sharing. I've often thought of building one of these myself.

Re the cab interior are you aware of this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTsYtbOyhEA

There's lots of backhead and other interior detail in it, albeit with the limitations of the video form.

Best,
David.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:57 pm

Thanks David, :)

Had a good look and there was plenty of interest in the video, will probably look again and again.

Number 17 has been altered for service on the line and has of course a different livery from her time on the Wemyss system. One of the main alterations (if anyone else wants to build one, now there are kits available), is that the engine had the driving position reversed during its most recent overhaul. It also has vacuum brake now which of course it did not have years ago on the Wemyss. Number 17 was always one of my favourites as it was fully lined in the chocolate livery. The three I am doing are 16-the original design with detail differences in plain chocolate, 17 in lined chocolate, and 18 in black. I still have to complete the engines at this stage and paint them, but I am trying to get Dubbieside ready for Perth and work on the stock for it. :

Daddyman
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Daddyman » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:52 am

There isn't a kit available, is there? Last I heard there was not enough interest in 4mm so it had been abandoned, despite having got as far as the test etch and test build stage. I spoke to them at a show a year or two ago.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:23 pm

Hello David, :)

I am not sure now - I do know that one or two were certainly produced as Pete Westwater was involved in the design of the 4mm version and has put together a few already for use on his layout in LEVEN in the Fife Preservation Society's yard at Kirkland. They may just be trial builds however, but very nice. I am building a new layout based on Scotts Road at East Wemyss. Pete is well on with his version which includes the BR Station at Wemyss Castle Station. My version is not going to be so grand, but it will be available for exhibitions and is P4 of course. We shall see how it develops. :| I will see Pete at some time during the summer and will try to find out what is happening with the kit.

Daddyman
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Daddyman » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks. As you've shown though, it's easy enough to scratchbuild. My only concern is the boiler fittings, and I'm still in the process of reading through your thread to find out how you did it - hopefully not on a lathe!

Your layout sounds very exciting!

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:38 pm

Hello David, :)

I am afraid that the boiler fittings were turned on a lathe, not my own I might add - I explained in my text that my lathe had broken down when I was building them as the motor had packed in at an inopportune moment. I had done some work on my friend Bob's layout and he kindly volunteered to turn the chimneys and domes for the engines. The safety valves are based on ones that Alan Gibson sells on turned bases.

I do make it clear in the text that this was the case and would not wish to suggest otherwise.

There are a number of model makers who would be willing to turn up such items for a reasonable price all you would have to supply would be a drawing - which you have here of course. The fact that there was a planned kit, it may be possible to get a set of boiler mountings cast - I will make some enquiries if you wish and will email you once I have found out.

Daddyman
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Daddyman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:53 am

Good of you, Allan.

I think that when I spoke to the people who were making the kit, one of the issues was the boiler fittings. I can't recall what exactly - perhaps that they had not bothered to cast them as they were abandoning it.

Very interesting what you say that some people offer a service to turn such fittings.

Are you aware that this month's Railway Bylines has a feature on the WPR?

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:21 am

Thank you David, :)

Yes my friend Ray let me know the other day and I hope to track down a copy sometime this week. They have had a previous article some time ago which was very good. There are quite a number of photographs which have never been published of the system so I am hoping there may be something new to see. Every photograph discovered provides something new.

I could show how to make the items without using a lathe and perhaps should still do so as part of this thread. Unfortunately it will have to be put off for a few weeks as I have a lot on at the moment, which is also the reason I have not been contributing to the forum in recent months - can't do everything!

There are a number of methods which I could cover if you want me to when I get around to finishing the thread - this will probably be later on in the year when I get around to finishing my own locomotives. I have a layout to build over the next six months which is going to Glasgow as a work in progress so this will take up much of my time, but I hope to have the locomotives all completed and at different stages of paintwork by then.

I will still follow up to see what the situation is with the 00 locos that are already running and get back to you. :thumb

Daddyman
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Daddyman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:58 pm

Thanks, Allan. Take your time - I understand your workload!

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:35 am

:) Finally after a long period of doing other things - trackwork wiring up etc.(as well as other distractions which I will not go into here) I now have some time which I am going to put aside for finishing the engines. I decided that rather than do a full cab interior at this stage for each one :o I would compromise with a temporary drop in interior as I realised that the only person likely to want to admire a full interior at this stage would be myself, so apologies but my temporary interiors are being made as a basic drop-in model which can be taken out at a later date and modified as I have more pressing things to be getting on with than engines. However this approach will allow all three engines to be ready for operation in a couple of weeks time and look OK from a normal viewing distance, if everything goes to plan! :thumb

The parts are from Millholme Models and are for a Maryport and Carlisle locomotive. The castings are a bit crude in two of the three offerings, but with a bit of finishing can be made OK for what I am wanting to do with them.

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This is the temporary white metal backhead which I found when browsing around one of the many shows I went to last year. I did not have my glasses on at the time, nor was I able to measure much, but from what I could estimate it looked about the right size and of a similar design.


DSC05143.JPG
The three interiors being trial fitted to the locomotives, before any other detail is added. The backheads come with separate pipes and other details which can be added and positioned as needed therefore a flexible design and suitable for my needs at this time.


The parts fitted with a little filing and as the wooden floors lift out with the backheads glued in place it means that the detail can be added away from the engines and painted separately for later fitting. I will leave the detailing until later as I have a painting demo or two coming up and a little finishing to do on the bodies before I get involved with this. :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:36 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:So what do the bodies look like after a fortnight's work assembling and detailing. Well here they are. :|
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Allan,

Can I ask how these loco's were so thoroughly cleaned up with all surface solder etc removed? Earlier in the thread they were cleaned to a certain extent but there was always a degree of solder visible? .... for instance to the base of the chimney here ...

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....or is it something to do with the lighting in the blue background shots?
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:27 pm

HI Tim, :)

I have over the last week been coming back to finishing the engines off as well as 3 J94's which I have been working on. The final finish after a bit more scraping and rubbing down was achieved using an airbrush and blasting powder to take off any solder residue - not entirely necessary, but the blasting process also gives a slightly textured surface which I think gives a bit of tooth for the paint when it is sprayed on. I have held off finishing them as I was more intent on working on the layout and also wanted to finish the cab interiors and working up the J94'swhich I have not been covering to any extent as an huge amount has already been covered in magazines and I am doing nothing new with them really - just finished priming one of the chassis for a Giesl fitted one this morning.

I have covered this on one of my other threads https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=886 :thumb

Allan :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:35 pm

Allan Goodwillie wrote:HI Tim, :)

I have over the last week been coming back to finishing the engines off as well as 3 J94's which I have been working on. The final finish after a bit more scraping and rubbing down was achieved using an airbrush and blasting powder to take off any solder residue - not entirely necessary, but the blasting process also gives a slightly textured surface which I think gives a bit of tooth for the paint when it is sprayed on. I have held off finishing them as I was more intent on working on the layout and also wanted to finish the cab interiors and working up the J94'swhich I have not been covering to any extent as an huge amount has already been covered in magazines and I am doing nothing new with them really - just finished priming one of the chassis for a Giesl fitted one this morning.

I have covered this on one of my other threads https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=886 :thumb

Allan :)


Thanks Allan,

Out of interest, How does the grit blast effect areas where you might have chosen solder to fill unwanted holes or gaps ...?
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Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:30 pm

Hi Tim, :)

By the time I get around to using it there is very little depth of surface solder anyway. Any gaps that might have been filled with solder will not really be attacked by the grit to any depth. The texture given to the surface is pretty microscopic, but is there none-the-less - you can actually feel it and it applies to any solder still left on the surface as well as the nickel silver or brass. I do not use any polish or cleaner of any kind except an acid bath from time to time depending on circumstances (again I think I have covered that elsewhere - I will check later and add it in when I find it. The problem with using brass cleaner as such is that it leaves a residue which is there to protect the brass from tarnishing again and slow down oxidation I assume but there is a tendency for paint not to want to stick permanently to such a surface. This is of course true also if you have had to solder something which may have given after a model has been painted, any flux must be cleaned off the area carefully, before ant re-painting goes ahead. - I've just been dealing with something similar this morning as it happens.

I was having a chat with my old friend Steve Duckworth at Newcastle when down with Dubbieside and we were discussing the painting of models and how it is important to be able to dismantle the model in a way which allows for easy assembly again after painting. It is preferable to cover rubbing surfaces up using tape for instance to scraping out paint afterwards. If you have taken hours and hours of time to create a beautiful model. Similar time and care should be taken to paint it. Professional painters would normally strip the model down, both for final cleaning and painting. That's partly what you are paying for if you want a top job done.

Steve has very kindly been passing on old photos of Dubbie taken in the museum - I have very few that I took myself and have been hoping that those who visited Melrose Station in the mid 1980's might be able have a hunt. I would be most grateful if anyone reading this would be able to help in any way track down such gold dust. It was in the days before digital cameras got going, so photographs were rarer than today and I was so busy with the running of the museum that I never did manage to take any myself. Fortunately Bill Roberton took some for me in black and white and this made up an article in the MRJ no. 47.

Allan :)

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:56 pm

Tim asked
Can I ask how these loco's were so thoroughly cleaned up with all surface solder etc removed? Earlier in the thread they were cleaned to a certain extent but there was always a degree of solder visible?


I wonder why it's felt necessary to polish the brass so that no trace of solder is left. Here is my latest creation before and after painting with primer. I used a steel pencil as in Allan's earlier shot to smooth it out as far as possible so that there are no changes of level. And of course cleaned and scrubbed it, soaking in Flash this time then a good rinse. Doesn't that trace of solder help the paint adhere? Yes it looks much nicer in brass with all the solder polished away but isn't that pointless after the paint is on?
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Le Corbusier
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:37 pm

You may be right .... but they do look very shiny :D :D :D

Allan seemed to be suggesting that the grit blasting improved the surface and gave a ket for the paint ?
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 am

Yes Julian, :) Tim is right that is why I use the treatment - there is no need to remove the solder if as you said there is no transition mark between the two. If you are working all the time on N/S or brass Kit construction you can be so good at it that there is very little solder to clean off. You could often see this kind of finish on brass imports which arrive unpainted. Many years ago Richard Darby, when I had finished my A4 pacific and before painting it asked if I was intending keeping it in the metal finish as he thought it was very beautiful and should not be sullied by paint - still mentions it occasionally.

Tim is right, the main reason I put the model through the blasting regime is because of the increased chance of a better adhering paint coat. I would add however that when they come out of the process you tend to take better care of the painting process as it increases the sense that you do not want to let the model down having created a near perfect surface, but that is purely a psychological thing.

I see you are building a Thomson 6-wheeler - I have had a kit for one of these sitting UN-started for 40 years now! They were common enough up here. I have always thought about making a Thomson match board full brake, which I have a drawing for. Speaking of Thomson, I know what my Christmas present is as I have bought an old Crownline kit from Alasdair Taylor for an A2/1. I have a lovely old photograph of myself taken by my Dad at Aberdeen with Robert the Bruce about to take off south on an Edinburgh express. Dad and I had left Mum sitting in the car with my sister Lorna on the promise that we would only go into the station for a short while and that I would stay clean. However, immediately I had had my photograph taken, the driver opened the throttle and the engine which had been sitting brewing up for some time slipped and primed at the same time. The resulting black deluge poured down upon my Dad and I - white shirts and all! Needless to say Mum was not at all pleased when we returned to the car. :cry:

I managed to get an Isinglass drawing for an A2/1 at Scalefourum and a nameplate - much to my surprise. :o and had intended rebuilding a V2 which I have, however the V2 will be finished as planned and the A2 now enters my to do list, probably for a year or two provided I am spared - pushes the 6-wheeler back down a bit more however! :cry:

Allan

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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:10 pm

:D Brilliant Allan, thanks! From such happy memories :lol: is our enthusiasm many decades later!

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:18 pm

I thought I had better catch up with progress on the engines. :)

Although it is coming up to Christmas, and all that means, it has been possible to get the third large Barclay chassis on towards completion. The other two have also had some detail put in under the footplate which will allow me to go ahead and start painting the bodies. The parts were made ages ago now, but I had put off finishing them off as I needed to get on with the layout boards, track laying and scenery as covered elsewhere. So what needed to be added? The footplate supports, the buffer beam supports, the under footplate ejectors as well as cab detailing - three times over, so 24 supports,12 buffer beam supports, 6ejectors to make and cab floors, back head details and back heads etc.for three locos. Along with the Barclay engines I have been finishing off three J94 locos and getting them prepared for painting. I decided that the interiors could wait until all the other parts were fitted and painted as I wanted to see the engines completed before Christmas.

So lots of small triangular pieces of N/S to solder up - not terribly exciting and many would not bother about doing so much below the footplate which is unlikely to show up in a photograph anyway, however I thought I might be annoyed with myself at a later date if I did not do it. It took about three days of modelling time to make and solder all the pieces into position - I have just spent half an hour trying to find photos of all the bits which I made a considerable amount of time ago, unsuccessful however, :cry: so the photos I have are just covering the last couple of weeks and no photos of the actual painting as I have covered this already.

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A bracket being soldered in place behind the buffer beam, the buffers have been removed just in case they get soldered accidentally. Using a surgical clamp with a curved set of jaws helps hold the small items in place during soldering.



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Both the brackets and supports are allowed a small clearance to allow for the removal of the frames. It also allows for the paint thickness and to allow the surfaces to come nearly together without damaging the paint job. The bracket in is case has already been tinned and will be sweated on to the underside of the footplate.



DSC05947.JPG
The small parts are cleaned up again after fitting and any flux washed away, prior to painting.


I spent some time finishing off various J94 chassis and then went on to doing the priming over the weekend and I now have half a dozen engines waiting on a top coat, re-assembly of a couple of chassis and then transfers and details. :)

Allan :D

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:52 pm

With Julian busy with his Thomson brake, it has incentivised me to get on with painting the beasts, so here are one or two photographs showing progress with the engines, with a it of luck I may get them finished prior to Christmas yet - not so sure about their accompanying truck/tenders - they will be capable of working on their own, but they will have extra pick-ups etc. fitted.

DSC05949.JPG
Here are the three J94's after priming. The dull primer does allow you to see if any details are wrong. Two of them will be in NCB livery including the Geisl version the third will be number 14 which was the first of the class to be bought by Wemyss, some of the wheels are also being painted up ready to fit, but I have covered this elsewhere, so no need to cover again here.


The roofs are not fitted at this stage and the engines had various differences and still have parts to be fitted.

DSC05959.JPG
Each engine has a list of bits for completion which will be useful over the next couple of weeks.


I am not completely satisfied with the finish, :( but will allow the engines to sit for a few days before giving them a slight rub down prior to top coat. The heat in the room for spraying was a bit high to get perfect results, the wild winter weather we have been enduring this week meant working with the windows closed. I am looking out at the moon wrestling with the clouds tonight as they speed past.

Here are a couple of photographs of the Barclay tanks - the primer looks a bit warmer in colour than it actually is.

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Here are the locos looking rather drab, one of which is still to have wheels fitted, all will need to have their lubricator arms fitted, they are made already, waiting for fitting.


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I will have to check, but I think this is to be No. 17 which will have the full Wemyss livery, No.16 will be in plain chocolate the third will be No. 18 in the black livery.


That's enough to cover progress over the last couple of weeks - I will see what stage I am at next Sunday.
Allan :)

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: West of Scotland Group's "Starters" Build a loco project 3

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:36 am

Having been asked recently about when the index might be forthcoming I have to admit that I cannot find enough time to do this properly, however I have been offered some help to get some form of index or headings done, a full index it is a fairly major task although it could be done as "chapters" covering each part of the thread. I do know from conversations at exhibitions that some people have downloaded the whole thing and I was wondering if anyone had already made an index or even made a list of Chapter headings and content within already and might be willing to help here. Suggestions anyone? I will post this on the other threads as well it will only need a response from one of the three loco building threads.

Allan :)


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