BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

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Stephen F
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BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Fri May 07, 2010 9:06 pm

I have a number of questions on this subject, which sort of run into each other, so here goes.
I would like to try using a bow pen to line my locos, lots of people say to get one but where? Does anyone know who sells them nowadays?
So if not, am thinking of using a technical drawing pen, eg Mecanorma or Rotring, in which case I need to know what size nibs to buy. My best guess would be something like .25mm for the red, and .4 or 5mm for the grey. Would these be close?
Next, does anyone have good matches for the colours? I've sprayed in black cellulose, and plan to use acrylic or something water-based for the lining so I can get it off ok if (ok when :oops:) I make a booboo...
I've been stuck on this for ages, so any advice on any part of the aboe will be much appreciated :!:

Here is the engine in question, a Gibson Black 5:
Attachments
Gibson black 5.jpg

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Mike Garwood
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Mike Garwood » Sat May 08, 2010 4:46 pm

Before you lay a hand on that handsome beast, I would strongly recommend that you read Ian Rathbone's book on Painting and Lining. This gives an invaluable insight to the art of lining and also lists suppliers of parts. I made an enquiry of Haff (a few months ago) - the people who make Ian's favourite lining pen - only to find that they have stopped making them.
Personally, I would have no problem in using the Fox transfers available as a set for the Black 5. Care and patience in using these sets has its own reward in a fine finish when used.

cheers

Mike

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Andy W
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Andy W » Sat May 08, 2010 5:05 pm

Stephen,
I agree with Mike re Ian Rathbone's book. It's best to line the colours in gloss enamel - assuming your black coat is cellulose. That allows you to tweak and correct errors without affecting the base layer. A Rotring is great for the black lines on top of the colour - but the Rotring coloured inks are not opaque enough. The last time I checked Cowling and Wilcock sold bow pens.

I'd definitely check out the Fox transfers - but also look for sheets of black transfer/decal paper as well. They're great for lining your own boiler bands etc. You can draw the parallel lines with the outer ones slightly over scale and then trim them back when cutting out with a scalpel. That way you will get a really sharp edge to the line.
Make Worcestershire great again.
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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Sun May 09, 2010 9:22 am

Thanks guys.
Mike, yes I've seen the transfers at Fox, and may end up going that way, but would like to try the painting route first. Point taken about Ian Rathbone's book, it sounds like essential reading. I'd seen it mentioned, and put off buying it (being innately stingy :!: ) but I can't make any headway till I'm reasonably confident of not making a mess of the job. So I'll do it right and get a copy.
Ealing, thanks, I'll give Cowling and Wilcox a ring, I'd been scouring the product lists, but I suppose demand is low for older type stuff and maybe they don't bother putting them on the website. What you say about using enamel is just the kind of thing I need to know. I'll do some practice tryouts obviously, and make sure mistakes are reversible.
BTW, I believe the technical pens can be used with converter cartridges so you can use proper paint in them, which was my plan. How they'd get on with enamel I don't know though.
Re boiler bands, that's a neat sounding trick. Must admit to not daring to think about them too much yet. They were a handful to make (out of paper thin sheet brass), being slightly curved to fit the Stanier taper. Probably the smart thing to do would have been to keep the pattern curve :oops:

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Andy W
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Andy W » Sun May 09, 2010 9:40 am

Stephen

Practice is definitely the way to go. Get hold of some old loco bodies, or better still do some lining on coaches that you can then use with your locos.

You may be able to use paint in a Rotring type pen - I'd be interested to hear if that's possible. However, they work using capillary action in very fine tubes. You'd have to ensure thorough cleaning as soon as the job's finished.

I never apply metal boiler bands, they're instantly over-scale - I think the thickness of the transfer is enough.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Sun May 09, 2010 9:51 am

I never apply metal boiler bands, they're instantly over-scale - I think the thickness of the transfer is enough


Ealing, I think you're right, ...next time I'll do it that way. On this one, I may naughtily pretend the boiler was changed and the lining not renewed!

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Paul Willis
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Paul Willis » Sun May 09, 2010 4:37 pm

Ealing wrote:Practice is definitely the way to go. Get hold of some old loco bodies, or better still do some lining on coaches that you can then use with your locos.


Ian Rathbone was leading the painting and lining course at the Missenden Weekend this year. Whilst I didn't attend that part of the weekend (floppy chassis was my thing...) I was sent the "pre-course" preparation.

I'll have a look later to see if it has any recommendations for pen suppliers, but the thing that stuck in my mind was that you didn't even bring a loco along for the course. What you were asked to prepare was a six inch square of material - probably brass would be good - with a coat of cellulose paint on it. Then you could practice lines and curves, and techniques "off" the model to get the basic ideas well embedded before trying it on something of more value.

If you've never tried lining by hand before, this could be a good way to start.

HTH
Flymo
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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Sun May 09, 2010 6:15 pm

I'll have a look later to see if it has any recommendations for pen suppliers


Thanks Flymo. Practicing on a piece of brass is exactly what I'll do. I'll reproduce the same texture and colour as on my loco, and see if I can get the hang of it.
Btw, what's a floppy chassis?

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Will L
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Will L » Sun May 09, 2010 11:05 pm

Stephen F wrote:...Btw, what's a floppy chassis?


I this context probably any chassis that isn't built with rigidly fixed axles, but most particularly compensated chassis that are often quite remarkably floppy.

Will

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Paul Willis
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Paul Willis » Mon May 10, 2010 5:33 am

Will L wrote:
Stephen F wrote:...Btw, what's a floppy chassis?


I this context probably any chassis that isn't built with rigidly fixed axles, but most particularly compensated chassis that are often quite remarkably floppy.


Will is absolutely correct - the building of non-rigid chassis was indeed the theme.

The group was led by Tim Watson of 2mm Finescale fame, and very therapeutic to participate in. In fact, I wasn't building a compensated chassis, but trying a CSB sprung chassis for the first time. In fact, a Great Eastern J15 0-6-0. This is it on the bench:

J15 001 (Large).jpg


I've parked it to one side for the moment, as I want to get the Pug finished (the chassis was painted last night, and the gearbox is part-built) but I'll be picking it up again soon. Progress will, of course, be posted on my Beer & Buckjumpers thread.

HTH
Flymo
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Andy W
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Andy W » Mon May 10, 2010 8:03 am

Seeing Flymo's picture makes me want to switch on the soldering iron and do some modeling! Great stuff.

Initial lining practicing on flat sheet material is a good idea. What I did after that was to get hold of a few plastic Slaters coaches (as I'm a Midland man). I then practiced lining these - but unassembled. This gives more challenges - curves and raised surfaces etc. but as you're working on just the sides and ends you don't have to worry about supporting the whole model. It allows you to make mistakes on something other than a hand built locomotive. Once you rectify any errors you can glue the coach together. It ceases to be just an exercise. You're working towards a finished, usable item.

Not so easy to do with etched coach kits due to the solder, but a good way to increase your stock and improve your lining skills at the same time.

You'll make errors - everyone does no matter how experienced they are - but that's how we learn. Finding out how to correct cock-ups is as important as learning how to do it correctly. Not being scared to make mistakes is what separates the armchair experts from those who actually make models.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Mon May 10, 2010 5:51 pm

Will wrote:

I this context probably any chassis that isn't built with rigidly fixed axles, but most particularly compensated chassis that are often quite remarkably floppy.


Will, that sounds like my mum's cat...

Flymo, that looks good. I just looked at your Pug on 'Beer and Buckjumpers', very nice too. I'll follow your chassis building with interest.
Since we're onto chassis talk, now's probably the time to confess that I'm going to rebuild the chassis on my Black 5. Being a complete noob at modelling (used to be a mechanic in 1:1 scale, but everything in 1:76 is so dottily small) I missed a few tricks. It runs sort of ok, but I knew it wasn't really right from the amount I had to open out the coupling rods. Anyhow, inspired and educated by Allan Goodwillie's thread on loco building in Starting in P4, I'm going to have another bash. I started today by making a back to back gauge from a piece of angle iron...
Ealing, that sounds like a good idea. I've only got wagons in plastic though. Lined coal trucks anyone? :evil:
I do have a BR mk 1 moulded body that needs lines though, so could get that done as practice. Only straight lines though...
Re the cockups, I've been there: see the above :oops: What I did get right was the bodywork, so I don't want to mess that up. The main thing is to make sure I can correct mistakes without spoiling the cellulose, so I'll order Ian Rathbone's book, and only go ahead lining on the loco when I'm good and ready.

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Paul Willis
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Paul Willis » Mon May 10, 2010 10:01 pm

Stephen F wrote:
Will wrote:

I this context probably any chassis that isn't built with rigidly fixed axles, but most particularly compensated chassis that are often quite remarkably floppy.


Flymo, that looks good. I just looked at your Pug on 'Beer and Buckjumpers', very nice too. I'll follow your chassis building with interest.


Thank you both for the kind words. If I'm inspiring people to do some modelling, then that is a Good Thing(tm).

The J15 is currently on the back-burner, whilst I finish the Pug, but I can't wait to get started on it again. You may have noticed that the photo shows that each of the bearings is matched to a hornguide, and each set to its own place in the frame. This is indicated by the sets of coloured dots (spots of Humbrol) on each component to mark them.

But not everything goes to plan... When I put the J15 chassis away after Missenden, I left the extended jigs axles and springs between the frames, to hold everything in place. When I took it out of the box a couple of weeks ago, this is what I found:

Workbench 004 (Large).jpg


The constant tension of the springs had snapped the solder joins. Which I made perfectly strong enough for normal handling, but not this type of sustained pressure. Ho hum... we all make cock-ups!

Flymo
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www.5522models.co.uk

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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Tue May 11, 2010 5:22 pm

Oh dear. Where's the third axle? I'm picturing it embedded in the ceiling :)

Well, just to grind on a bit longer about bow pens, I spoke to three people at Cowling and Wilcox today, none of whom had even heard of them. It was as though I'd asked at PC world about typewriter ribbons. So am pretty stuck on that. Maybe I will do transfers. Or try the Tech pen with enamel in a refillable cartridge.

Steve

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Mike Garwood
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Mike Garwood » Tue May 11, 2010 5:38 pm

Stephen

try these people, they stock Ecobra lining pens. Not as good as Haff, but then never having used a Haff...

http://www.greenandstone.com/v2/p/PAC.php?c=10&d=153

cheers

Mike

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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Tue May 11, 2010 9:10 pm

Thanks Mike, that's a breakthrough.
They look like bow pens to me, only called ruling pens. I think bow pen is a very general term for all split nib pens, of which ruling pens are a type. Searching 'ruling pens', I came across a page on Hobby Holidays which says Haff are the only good make in the world, and they are hard to deal with. Googled Haff, and mainly got quotes like 've haff vays of making you etc'.
It's tricky. If I get a cheaper one, it mightn't do the job, even for an expert. On the other hand, the Haff ones will cost the earth, and I'll need to be sure I can use it. Bit of a chicken and egg thing. I'll do some more research along these lines anyway. And get Ian Rathbone's book...

regards
Stephen

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Andy W
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Andy W » Wed May 12, 2010 8:09 am

I wouldn't get too hung up on getting a Haff. I'm sure they're great, but I've only used Kerns and they've done the job. After all I'm sure the latest Mercedes gives a smooth ride, but a Morris Minor can get you to the shops if you look after it. Mine was part of a compass set. They're a good idea as you can swap the pen from a compass to a handle. Try here:

http://willsquills.com.au/KernEquipment.htm

or

http://www.swissmade.com/en/web/kern_cl ... _10_k.html
Make Worcestershire great again.
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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Wed May 12, 2010 6:25 pm

Ealing, I think you're right about that. Just after posting last night, I came across a technical article on the MMRS site by Adrian Prescott on painting and lining:
http://www.mmrs.org.uk/technical/painting.htm
He says he has a Haff but hasn't had much success with it, prefers a different bow pen with short stiff blades - he doesn't even know the make. And if I ever get to produce lining half as good as his, I'll be happy.
Good point about the compass, for radiuses.

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Mike Garwood
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Mike Garwood » Wed May 12, 2010 9:50 pm

If you really want to look at the Haff kit try this. Hope you have a healthy cheque book!

http://www.haff.com/reissfedern_e.htm

cheers

Mike

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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Thu May 13, 2010 9:02 am

OK, if I want 'carboloy tips', it'll cost me £85. But some of the pens are actually very reasonable. The £8 one is the lowest price I've seen anywhere for any pen, but looks like it has long, bendy blades. Maybe 231 would be better, still only £15 or so. I could run to that.
Something else that looks interesting is the circle templates on the Green and Stone site. You could blutack them in place to join up the straight lines with the right radius (hoping of course not to pull off the cellulose :shock: . Or just use them to make a template of, say, the tender lining as a whole, and cut it out of plastikard, and set it up slightly clear of the surface, so as not to pull the paint when taken away.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:26 pm

Check eBay item No. 160433040075
Keith
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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Fri May 14, 2010 7:38 pm

Well spotted Keith, I'll put a bid in.
Spookily, I am in fact left handed...

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grovenor-2685
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri May 14, 2010 9:02 pm

Hope it works out then.
I was only on there because my wife asked me to look for something else and I thought I'd scan the finescale list before shutting it down
serendipity?
Keith
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Keith
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Stephen F
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby Stephen F » Sun May 16, 2010 7:24 pm

Well, I got that bowpen for £10.50, so that's not a bad outcome. Now all I have to do is learn how to use it!

Thanks for letting me know about it, Keith, and many thanks to all who have passed on their advice and encouragement on this thread. It's fabulous to get that support, and hugely appreciated.

MichaelC
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Re: BR Mixed Traffic lining for my Black 5

Postby MichaelC » Sun May 16, 2010 7:42 pm

Sorry about the late post on this but the following site might be of interest. Have not used them and no indication of price. http://www.goldenarrow.me.uk/tools.htm


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