GWR E147 B set

[Noel]

Mike, I have no knowledge specific to the VoN but the official liveries for non-corridor stock were unlined crimson up to March 1956, thereafter unlined maroon until some time in 1959 [from Parkin, BR Mark 1 Coaches]. However, repainting was a slow process for n/c stock [except, perhaps, autocoaches, judging by photographs], and the official 5 year repaint period was sometimes exceeded by a wide margin. For example, Ballantyne, Western Steam in Colour 2, page 45 shows two BR Mark 1 non-corridors condemned(?) at Dowlais Cae Harris in May 1964, one in unlined maroon and one in unlined crimson. In 1958 it is probable, on this basis, that most E147 would still have been crimson. Russell, GW Coaches Appendix shows E147 as extinct Dec 1963, so it seems unlikely that any would ever have carried lined maroon.

[chrisf]

Mike, if you are modelling 1958 you are pre-dating lined maroon. Lining was not applied to maroon on non-gangwayed coaches until mid 1959 so you have a choice between disreputable crimson and quite smart maroon.

Chris [who has caused enough trouble already ...]

[Tim V]

The story I heard - from a very good source - is that the GWR GAs were sent to the workshop, and have only occasionally survived.

When a load came up as available, they were jumped on by collectors - only to find out that these were for proposed coaches that were never built.

[Mike Garwood]

So most of the coach GA's are in private collections? That's a huge shame. I suppose they'll surface sooner or later.

Thanks for all the info on liveries, I think I'm going to be safe with a dirty crimson.

Mike

[Crepello]

The story I heard - from a very good source - is that the GWR GAs were sent to the workshop, and have only occasionally survived.

Surely the super-organised GWR D.O. drew and traced their GAs on linen for durability, and simply used the reprographic technology of the time to produce such copies as were requested by the shops? Though I suppose the masters could have been entrusted to the care of a workshop print room for quicker response, which made them more vulnerable to periodic clearouts.

[billbedford]

Completely irrelevant Bill. Will was suggesting that I had placed a misleading and an erroneous drawing on this site. I have not. The drawing supplied has enough dimensions on it in order to re-create an accurate end in AutoCAD. The MJT part is still a better version of a GWR profiled roof than is currently available from anywhere else.

It is still a diagram, which were produce to enable traffic office staff to recognise types of coaches rather than any being use for construction. Drawing diagrams was a job usually reserved for drawing office apprentices.

All that's been established is that it is impossible to verify what actually was the profile for E147 without the aid of the GA. And further more it's been pointed out that these GA's are hard to come by. When I searched the lists at the NRM for E147 I only found one reference...and that's been presented to you.
So where does this leave this topic? Well according to Bill, the drawing that's been posted is inaccurate, that can't be proved as we can't get a GA to disprove it, "made to a less exacting standard", a sweeping statement for something that is unverifiable. It may well be that the draftsmen who penned the diagram was having a good day and did a thorough job, another sweeping statement and completely unfounded.

This is to misunderstand how coaches were constructed at the time. Just about all the components of a coach body were mass produced in the woodworking shop. The GA drawings were produced to tell the assembly shop which order common components were to be built in. The DO produced detail drawings of all the components, roof, sides, doors, windows, ends, etc. The outlines of these were incorporated in to the general assembly drawing with just enough information for the individual components to be identified.

So to produce an accurate model of a particular style of coach you will need a GA of any coach built to that style and, if the GA is not of the particular coach you are building, a diagram to give you the compartment spacing.

If you look closely at the drawings in John Lewis' coach plan book you will find a consistency in the outlines of the Collet roofs which is not matched by the way the end elevations are dimensioned. This suggests to me that the DO had templates made to ensure that each of the GA drawing they drew had a consistent profile for both the roof and the sides.

All you can do is look at what's been presented to you and make an informed judgement with what evidence is available and been presented.

That's true, especially now you have a GA drawing that will give you the correct roof profile.

[Crepello]

If you look closely at the drawings in John Lewis' coach plan book you will find a consistency in the outlines of the Collet roofs which is not matched by the way the end elevations are dimensioned. This suggests to me that the DO had templates made to ensure that each of the GA drawing they drew had a consistent profile for both the roof and the sides.

Did you mean to type 'GA', rather than 'diagram' ? I could see where an approximation would not be a hindrance on a diagram, but on a GA it would cause ambiguities.

[billbedford]

Did you mean to type 'GA', rather than 'diagram' ? I could see where an approximation would not be a hindrance on a diagram, but on a GA it would cause ambiguities.

I don't understand what you mean by 'ambiguities'. The GAs were use to define where ready made parts fitted together. There would be other, detail, drawings that would have defined each part. And there would be forms and templates in the machine shop that ensure that the parts were made consistently.

[Tim V]

So most of the coach GA's are in private collections? That's a huge shame. I suppose they'll surface sooner or later.

Thanks for all the info on liveries, I think I'm going to be safe with a dirty crimson.

Mike

No, most GW coach GAs don't exist.

Those that do are mostly for coaches that were never built.

[philip-griffiths]

Hello Phillip

Long time no see. I've finished building coaches for LMJ sometime back (upwards of 30 by now)- as far as I know, I've not been given any more to do. This set is for my own project. Hengoed High Level. My Grand parents used to live in Park Road immediately behind the line. Can you remember where you've seen the photos of the B sets? I'm trying to find what livery they actually ended up in circ 1958. I know the official line is that they should be BR maroon with lining on the middle and top. So far I can't find a photo to support that. I'm hoping to get away with a very dirty carmine and unlined set, again evidence needed. Any help appreciated.

When are we likely to see you again?

Mike

Mike. When I saw that the AGM was in Newport I started to plan to fly over but was then told that there was a family wedding that Saturday. So unfortunately I will not be over.

It was my mother's recollections about travel to school. She said that the carriage had compartments and no corridor. No pictures in Jones and Dunstone of b-sets on the line. Regards.

[Mike Garwood]

So, the B set's finished. I think it's been worth the effort, but you can make your own mind up.

IMG_1919.JPG

IMG_1920.JPG

IMG_1922.JPG

Mike

[Bulwell Hall]

They do look very nice Mike - it was good to see them yesterday evening.

Whats next then........?

Gerry

[Noel]

They do indeed look very nice. However, LH numbers officially went out of use early in 1951 [probably March]. Some trade builders used them into 1952, but Swindon seems to have followed the official line. The next repaint after 3/1951 would have given them RH numbers, but that would have taken several years, of course.

I was a bit surprised by the number location on the brake end, as the official position was always below the waist line, so far as I know, on the same level as the other coach. The other question, since B sets were 2xBC, and these have the "FIRST" window labels, is where are the "1"s on the doors of the second compartment from the van end?

[Mike Garwood]

Hi Noel

Thanks for your observations, the labels for first class are in the window. I found pics of E147 sets on the RCTS site showing the coaches as they are - including where the numbers should have been applied. I have to admit to forgetting to put the 1's on the doors. I didn't spot that till I'd finished weathering by which time it was too late! I've also (since) found photos of B sets without these numbers on as well, so I was prepared to let it go.

Gerry
Waiting for an opportunity to finish a Hawksworth brake third - need to put the cream on, re-doing an underframe for GWR Rest car H15 and having to re-paint the coach sides into the colours you saw last night, currently this coach is finished but has the Rail match colours, which really aren't right. Bearing in mind this was the first coach I ever built. There's also a small matter of finishing the Brit valve gear and varnishing the completed 45xx. Once I have my pannier (77xx) back - with wheels on - that'll need weathering to...so a bit to do. And then there's an LMS 4 car set needed for LMJ.

Mike

[Bulwell Hall]

That'll keep you busy then Mike!

Gerry

[PeteT]

I look forward to seeing them in due course!

The B set looked brilliant on Tuesday, so the of some LMS stock (and a Brit!) to join them sounds good

Pete

[philip-griffiths]

Mike and the LMJ team :

have you looked at this? 8 minutes 20 in there is a train arriving at Pontypool Road with a B Set marshalled behind the loco.

https://youtu.be/4M523FxYPzQ

regards

PS was on holiday in Llangynidr last week but couldn't get time to make it down to the club.

[Mike Garwood]

Hi Phillip

Shame you couldn't make it. I bought the DVD some while back, but I hadn't realised that clip was in there. Must have slept through that bit.

regards

Mike

[Russ Elliott]

Excellent. The new roof makes them look so much better.

[philip-griffiths]

Mike

found a book in Hatchards this week with a picture of a b-set on Crumlin viaduct. It has actually been mentioned on this forum by someone else in the past.

[Tim V]

Recessed guard's door - E140/145.