GWR E147 B set

[Mike Garwood]

For a long time now I've wanted to make a good, accurate model of a Welsh B set. A traditional set that would have run from Pontypool Road through to Hengoed High Level. Having found that such a thing existed (BR service time tables western area 1951) in the first place was a good start. No point building a set if they never worked the line!

So where to start? For me my first place of call are the websites and trawl of these reveals numerous problems with up grading RTR. Then a chance meeting with Chris Foren at Scale 4 last year, revealed more problems with what was available from the kit manufacturers.
I've never been bothered about roof profiles before, but if I was going to go all out for this then I had to something about the correct profile for a GWR Collet coach roof. It's been explained to me that all Comet extruded ali roofs are to an LNER profile and a better GWR like profile can be had from MJT. Ok, lets have a couple of those then.
Next, the end profile for the coaches are wrong, at the mid section of the waist they are too wide. No problem, sent for the GA's from the NRM (as a digital download). Imported this into my CAD program, then drew the profile of the MJT roof on paper and scanned that and then imported that into CAD. So now I have, as good a roof top profile that is currently available and ends that fit the GA.
While I'm at it, I may as well etch the brake levers and pull rods, the headstocks & the buffer bases for the short buffers between coaches and a system to join the 2 coaches together. Off to PPD it goes.

GWR Diagram E147 Ends AutoCAD 2004.dwg

Fortnight later and it's all back. Quick order to Comet for 2 E147's. This time I'm taking a hyper critical view of what's in the flat pack box. I don't like the battery boxes, going to have to find something better or end up scratch building something.
Looking at photos of these coaches in Russel Vol 1 plate 383, I can see another box in the underframe gubbings, looking at the plans from Comet - nothing there. How many of us build to the plans of the kit and still don't believe are own eyes from what's in a photo? Well I've got my hand in the air, because I've done it in the past, but not on this set.
Battery boxes are available for Collet coaches from Frogmore (http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/3916.php) and very nice they are too. You have to put some effort into them, to get the sides to fold squarely. But you don't need a milling machine or lathe to accomplish this, a file will do. One of my bug bears in any kit is why on earth isn't there a back on any box, since when were boxes 5 sided? So a bit more work to put a sixth side on my boxes.

Now the GA's from the NRM - other than it does give you the ends - are to be honest, pretty useless. You don't get any underframe details for example. I wanted to include as much detail as I could on the underframe. When you look at coaches and through the underframe to the other side, there's inevitably something obscuring your view, it all appears to be very busy. That was something else I wanted to replicate on my models. Standard Comet underframe, Bill Bedford sprung bogies, with MJT cosmetic sides.

IMG_1698.JPG

The coach sides all had their hinges added and it was a pretty standard coach build, until I got to the roof. Now Comet roofs have an inside lip that you add glue to and stick to the inside of the coach. MJT roofs don't have that luxury. So I soldered some scrap pieces of etch flush to the top of the coach side.

IMG_1615.JPG

This now gives the Devon 2 ton glue somewhere to get a grip. So, I'm drilling holes into the roof for the shell vents and I'm looking at the vents in the box. Full of flash, all shapes and sizes. Not good enough. Having bought one of David Geens kits I was impressed with the sets of castings that came with it. Fortunately David does sell his shell vents separately and I noticed that he had window grills for sale as well. Off goes the letter and by the end of the week some really nice castings and very fine grill etches are in the study! So this is where I am now. The main builds are complete and only the interior of the second coach to finish tomorrow.

IMG_1697.JPG

IMG_1696.JPG

I hope to get this lot painted and numbered up in time for June. Comments welcome.

Mike

[Tim V]

Good work Mike.

I shall have to check my E147 set is up to the mark before you next see it....

[Andrew Ullyott]

Nice. I've a set to do myself.
Andrew

[andrewnummelin]

The last time I travelled in one of these, or something similar, was when I was too young to realise that it would have been sensible to note the coach numbers as well as that of the loco! All I had noted was that the coach had 1 first class compartment 1 away from the guard's area. There were 3 of these pushing 6656 downhill, so was this a B set plus 1, or 3 coaches with normal buffers at both ends?
I trust your superb models will have working brakes - without them, running round at a terminus in the Eastern Valley could be a problem.

[Mike Garwood]

I'm having a problem in re-charging the vacuum pumps, any ideas?

Mike

[billbedford]

I've never been bothered about roof profiles before, but if I was going to go all out for this then I had to something about the correct profile for a GWR Collet coach roof. It's been explained to me that all Comet extruded ali roofs are to an LNER profile and a better GWR like profile can be had from MJT. Ok, lets have a couple of those then.

Errr no. MJT roofs are to LNER drawings, Comet are a compromise which are close match to BR Mk 1, LMS and GWR.

[Mike Garwood]

Hmmm...

So I've loaded the drawing of the MJT part into the GA for the coach. I'll let you make up your own mind. May be it is as Bill describes, but the MJT part still has a better profile than the Comet part. But I would say that..wouldn't I.

E147 end and roof profile.JPG

For comparisons sake, I'm willing to draw in the Comet profile, should it be asked for.

Mike

[45609]

Go on then Mike. I'm interested to see that and while you are at it scale the profiles you have drawn to the GA. That will give us a better impression of the difference.

Cheers....Morgan

[Mike Garwood]

Having spent most of the day on this, not really...

B Set Roof Profiles-Layout1.jpg

The red line is the existing Comet profile, the purple line is MJT. I don't think there's much argument over which is the nearest to the correct GWR profile.

I do apologise for putting duff info up on the site, however, the assertion that the MJT part is the closer profile is correct. This saves me from a lot of painful rework.

Mike

[45609]

Well done Mike, a very good comparison.

[shipbadger]

Ahem,

The current MJT listing gives five different aluminium roof profiles, perhaps Mike should indicate which one he is using.

Pedant mode now off.

Tony Comber

[Mike Garwood]

Part number 2971 L described as "ALUMINIUM ROOF (ELLIPTICAL PROFILE - 285MM FOR GWR TOPLIGHTS)"

regards

Mike

[billbedford]

The problem is that you are using a diagram, not a GA, as the basis of your drawing. From a study of GWR coach GAs in John Lewis' Great Western Coaches the dimensions of the outer skin of the Collet roofs was a true half ellipse 8' 9" wide x 2' 2.0625" and from Michael Harries' Gresley Coaches the dimensions of the LNER roof was 8' 8.5" x 2' 5.5". Both were measured from the bottom of the cantrail, i.e. 4" from the top of the carriage side.

So to get the end profile for etches. Assuming that the MJT profile is accurate for LNER roofs, which most people do, draw a scale 8' 8.5" x 2' 2.5" semi ellipse, off set it by the thickness of the extrusion and raise the bottom edge of the profile by a scale 4".

The MJT roof is still going to be a scale 2" too high, but if people are using the Comet roof for GWR coaches, I don't think many will notice.

[Alan Turner]

That would appear to work.

roof.png

regards

Alan

[Mike Garwood]

Yes it does work, it's a shame that this shape isn't available to work with.

Mike

[Will L]

I worry about that drawing, did the GWR really build coaches where the top of the coach side is wider than the roof cornices/cantrails?

[Mike Garwood]

Are you doubting the drawings prominence? Please tell me you aren't.

Mike

[billbedford]

Are you doubting the drawings prominence? Please tell me you aren't.

No but it is a diagram, so it would have been made to a less exacting standard, and a smaller scale than the GA. This is the end drawings for the riviera corridor thirds.

GWR 60' Corridor third ends.png

And, yes Will, the roof was inset from the sides.

[Bulwell Hall]

Hi Mike

I'm afraid you do need to be wary of diagrams - aka weight diagrams - as they were not drawn for constructional use by the workshops. Therefore they are not gauranteed to be accurate in details or in profiles. The same also applies to the (weight) diagrams of locomotives and wagons. GA drawings - General Arrnagement - drawings are what you need but these are not so easily obtained - especially of carriages and wagons.

Hope this helps.

Gerry

[Mike Garwood]

Are you doubting the drawings prominence? Please tell me you aren't.

No but it is a diagram, so it would have been made to a less exacting standard, and a smaller scale than the GA.

And, yes Will, the roof was inset from the sides.

Completely irrelevant Bill. Will was suggesting that I had placed a misleading and an erroneous drawing on this site. I have not. The drawing supplied has enough dimensions on it in order to re-create an accurate end in AutoCAD. The MJT part is still a better version of a GWR profiled roof than is currently available from anywhere else.

All that's been established is that it is impossible to verify what actually was the profile for E147 without the aid of the GA. And further more it's been pointed out that these GA's are hard to come by. When I searched the lists at the NRM for E147 I only found one reference...and that's been presented to you.
So where does this leave this topic? Well according to Bill, the drawing that's been posted is inaccurate, that can't be proved as we can't get a GA to disprove it, "made to a less exacting standard", a sweeping statement for something that is unverifiable. It may well be that the draftsmen who penned the diagram was having a good day and did a thorough job, another sweeping statement and completely unfounded.
All you can do is look at what's been presented to you and make an informed judgement with what evidence is available and been presented. I am happy in the knowledge that the ends I've drawn are more accurately wrong? Who knows.

If you have a GA of E147 step up...

Mike

[Will L]

.. Will was suggesting that I had placed a misleading and an erroneous drawing on this site....

No I wasn't I was asking for information, as I'm fairly sure that the wooden bodied LNER coaches I am much more familiar with, the cantrail is wider than the top edge of the coach. Your drawing pointedly shows the overall width at the waist which suggest that the sides slop in slightly which is pretty normal coach building practice too. I did wonder if this was the result of a gutter along the roof edge which I seem to remember existed BR mark 1 coaches, and which Bill's drawing shows quite clearly.

None of this is really relevant to the discussion of the right roof profile.

[Mike Garwood]

Will

That is not the inference in your posting. The english you've chosen to use clearly questions the authenticity of the drawing.

Mike

[Will L]

I'm sorry you took it like that Mike, It was not my intention.

Edit to remove silly spelling error

[philip-griffiths]

For a long time now I've wanted to make a good, accurate model of a Welsh B set. A traditional set that would have run from Pontypool Road through to Hengoed High Level. Having found that such a thing existed (BR service time tables western area 1951) in the first place was a good start. No point building a set if they never worked the line!

Mike, are you talking about the train that ran to Hengoed in the morning? In the 1945 WTT this is labelled auto coach. It was in the timetable to serve Lewis Girls school. my mother used to catch it from Pontllanfraith.

I've seen pictures of B Sets being used on workmen's trains serving the valleys and Glascoed.

Thought you were modelling Little Mill Junct. btw not the other Vale of Neath Extension.

regards

[Mike Garwood]

Hello Phillip

Long time no see. I've finished building coaches for LMJ sometime back (upwards of 30 by now)- as far as I know, I've not been given any more to do. This set is for my own project. Hengoed High Level. My Grand parents used to live in Park Road immediately behind the line. Can you remember where you've seen the photos of the B sets? I'm trying to find what livery they actually ended up in circ 1958. I know the official line is that they should be BR maroon with lining on the middle and top. So far I can't find a photo to support that. I'm hoping to get away with a very dirty carmine and unlined set, again evidence needed. Any help appreciated.

When are we likely to see you again?

Mike