Drakelow

A forum for participants in the Standard Gauge Workbench.
billbedford
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:15 am

Isn't phosphoric acid a rust inhibitor?
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Will L » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:47 pm

billbedford wrote:Isn't phosphoric acid a rust inhibitor?


It certainly will help remove any existing rust, and presumably(?) any residue will not of itself cause rusting as other acids tend to. So perhaps phosphoric acid fluxes are a good choice for soldering steel rail.

JFS
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:47 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby JFS » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:57 pm

billbedford wrote:Isn't phosphoric acid a rust inhibitor?


No, it is a rust convertor and if it is not immediately washed off and dried and over-coated, the rust will reform. For confirmation of this, have a look at the instructions on a bottle of "Jenolite"!!

BTW, if anyone wants to see steel rail rusting, just leave a length lying on the bench whilst you solder-up an etched brass kit! The splashes of flux will soon make themselves apparent. I only know this because the usually excellent chaps at C&L accidentally packed a length in with some proper rail I bought

Unfortunately, the stuff does the same for steel tools as well if care is not taken - what a good job that the rail which other people buy is made of a completely rust-proof steel. :D :D :D

[Dons bullet proof jacket, tin hat, and heads for bunker]


Cheers,





Cheers,

Bunchie3174

Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:14 pm

I have actually made some significant progress over the last few days. I have rail, NS, but no more check rail chairs. Undaunted I perched the whole layout on my workbench and made some inroads into the 3 way.
As you can see from the turnout it seems to be fitting together rather well. I always start a turnout with the intention of building it 'by the book' but get distracted early on. Maybe that's why my track work has a rustic feel to it. The excuse here is that Drakelow is a learning layout. I am bound to make errors in construction but thus far I'm very pleased. My crossing filing seems quite accurate. I do things by eye generally, then check with gauges, then admire the successes...... or rework the failures.
I've started the 3 way by laying the inside curve first and moved outwards and carefully thought about the placing of chairs on the interlaced sleepers. The test wagon goes through without (much of) a fuss. It's a rigid chassis so compensated stock should have no trouble.
Attachments
photo.JPG
Looking like something you'd see on a real railway

Philbax

Re: Drakelow

Postby Philbax » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:39 am

Hi
I have used Jenolite for years in car restoration. Most rust removers will convert the rust but only on the surface, Kurust for instance, I have often left the rusted component to soak in jenolite for a couple od days before wiping and drying it off. I have two spacers which were de-rusted in jenolite this way 10 ears ago and are only now showing a couple of small rust spots.
I have not tried it as a flux, interesting idea for steel rail, will give it a go in the future

Philbax

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1310
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Noel » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:32 am

Bunchie3174 wrote:The test wagon goes through without (much of) a fuss. It's a rigid chassis so compensated stock should have no trouble.


Most 'rigid' P4 wagons aren't actually truly rigid. The axles can move sideways by a small amount, within the coning of the bearings, which allows them to adjust to minor irregularities. The dynamics of compensated wagons are different, and also may differ depending on whether the fixed end or the compensated end is leading (which is why many preferred springing once the parts became available). You may find it helpful to test points with a compensated vehicle as well.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2384
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Tim V » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:47 pm

Agree with Jim, rust in the wrong place (on the running surface) will play havoc with smooth running. Have you travelled in the first train of the season on a preserved line, when the rust gets knocked off, it's very noisy. In 4mm, we don't have the mass to clean the rail surface.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

allanferguson
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:27 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby allanferguson » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:18 pm

Philbax wrote:Hi
I have used Jenolite for years in car restoration. Most rust removers will convert the rust but only on the surface, Kurust for instance, I have often left the rusted component to soak in jenolite for a couple od days before wiping and drying it off. I have two spacers which were de-rusted in jenolite this way 10 ears ago and are only now showing a couple of small rust spots.
I have not tried it as a flux, interesting idea for steel rail, will give it a go in the future

Philbax


Jenolite is, I believe two thirds phosphoric acid, which is the basis for some fluxes. I used it quite successfully as a flux for many years when I was poorer. The danger was it tasted much like a well known brand of Cola Drink!

Allan F

Bunchie3174

Re: Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:39 pm

Whilst making outline plans to think about doing something to Drakelow I came across some supplies lurking in the lower recesses of my workbench. They comprised of 200 sleepers and some turnout timbering, the C&L thick variety. Incompatible with the sleepers I've used on Drakelow, (0.8mm ply,) I decided to have a plank day using them up on a quick two turnout Templot plan and an cut down baseboard.
This baseboard was originally 1150 x 400, the same dimensions as the Drakelow board. It was cut into two 1150 x 200 boards to sit in my workroom and tempt me into using them. As the day progressed and I had little interruption and I made good progress. I'm actually amazed that it went together so well (so far).
I have christened this plank "Enville" after the small village in South Staffs, just a few miles from Drakelow. Luckily there is a suitable real location for this conveniently spied on Google Earth and is now being imaginatively interlinked into the Drakelow history.
There's nothing to say you can't have 2 SGW projects is there?
Attachments
IMG_438466863.JPG
Enville

User avatar
Martin Wynne
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Martin Wynne » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:18 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:
clecklewyke wrote:But what, pray, is a "Barry Slip"?

Hi Ian,

Essentially it is two turnouts of the same hand reversed and interlaced.

So called (on the GWR at least) because they were common in the sorting sidings at Barry Docks.

And now we have the evidence -- a ladder of Barry slips at Barry:

Image
Many thanks to Sandy Croall for the pic.

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

User avatar
Ian Everett
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Ian Everett » Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:03 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Ian,

Essentially it is two turnouts of the same hand reversed and interlaced.

So called (on the GWR at least) because they were common in the sorting sidings at Barry Docks.

And now we have the evidence -- a ladder of Barry slips at Barry:

Martin.[/quote]

Thank you, Martin - an amazing photograph. I'm amazed I haven't seen it on RM's "Prototype for anything" series in CJFs' days!

Ian

User avatar
barhamd
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:45 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby barhamd » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:10 pm

Ian Everett wrote:
Martin Wynne wrote:Hi Ian,

Essentially it is two turnouts of the same hand reversed and interlaced.

So called (on the GWR at least) because they were common in the sorting sidings at Barry Docks.

And now we have the evidence -- a ladder of Barry slips at Barry:

Martin.


Thank you, Martin - an amazing photograph. I'm amazed I haven't seen it on RM's "Prototype for anything" series in CJFs' days!

Ian[/quote]

That was because Peco don't make a crossing like that!
David

andrewnummelin
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:43 am

Re: Drakelow

Postby andrewnummelin » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:26 pm

Martin Wynne wrote:And now we have the evidence -- a ladder of Barry slips at Barry:

Image
Many thanks to Sandy Croall for the pic.

Martin.


I'm pretty sure these "Barry Slips" were not at Barry.
This photograph appears on page 51 in John Hutton's "The Newport Docks & Railway Company" published by Silver Link Publishing Ltd in 1996 (ISBN 1857940873). It is credited to Associated British Ports and the caption reads "Coal for shipment circa 1930 shown here at the Tredegar Park Sidings, one of the Alexandra Docks numerous yards. The wagons bearing the initials 'EV' are from Ebbw Vale collieries, while those marked JL are from John Lancaster Company, which had collieries at Blaina, Cwmtillery and Griffin."
I suspect that the PT wagons may have been from the Powell's Tillery Steam Coal Co. Ltd.
Regards,

Andrew Nummelin

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1310
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby Noel » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:15 pm

[quote="andrewnummelin]This photograph appears on page 51 in John Hutton's "The Newport Docks & Railway Company" published by Silver Link Publishing Ltd in 1996 (ISBN 1857940873).[/quote]

If you have the 2002 edition [ISBN 1 85794 163 2] it's on p112. The AND&R also had similar ladders in Monmouthshire Bank and Mendalgief Bank sidings at the entrance to the docks. Indeed, given the resemblance of the distant northlight building centre right to Newport Pill shed, I wonder if the caption is possibly wrong, and this is actually the north side of Monmouthshire Bank looking South West, before the Whitehead steel works was extended?

Incidentally, it looks as if the track is fairly lightweight flat bottom, spiked to the sleepers?

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby steve howe » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:00 pm

Iain Rice wrote at some length about making you own phosphoric acid fluxes back in the late 80's in 'Model Railways'.

On a suggestion from a colleague in the Science Dept. I have tried cleaning flux off steel rail with meths applied vigorously with a stiff hogs hair paintbrush. After a fortnight I can report no sign of rusting. I don't claim to say this is the solution to rusting rails after soldering, but it might be worth a go.

Steve

Bunchie3174

Re: Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:24 pm

Those are too easy. Mine is on a curve.
This is a version I built some years ago for an O gauge light railway. I used Code 82 FB as I recall which was way too small in section for O gauge wheels. The inspiration was Chichester station on the Selsey Tramway
Attachments
IMG_440259305.JPG

Bunchie3174

Re: Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:46 pm

A bit of slow progress has seen some more track be laid, and some that needs to be lifted. I laid the dairy siding with C&L flexi only to find it had gone out of gauge somehow. No amount of coaxing will get the rails apart, at least not without damaging it. So back to plan A, rip it up, all 17" of it and relay with ply sleepers. At least I can get the 3 point gauge on it for some widening.
Attachments
Drakelow 05.jpg
The offending siding, with the wagons which won't stay on the track.
Drakelow 05.jpg (74.47 KiB) Viewed 6856 times
Drakelow 09.JPG
The better end

Simon Glidewell

Re: Drakelow

Postby Simon Glidewell » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:15 am

Hello Bunchie3174,

What sort of glue did you use where the C and L flexi track was laid? And did you spread the glue evenly over the entire sleeper area? The thin plastic sleepers of this track can bend up slightly if not glued properly and cause gauge narrowing. I've used a lot of this track on my layout, including curves, without problems. I use PVA glue, thinly and evenly spread over the whole piece of cork underlay where the track will go and then carefully weighted it all with books or something similar. Make sure you leave it to dry thoroughly before removing the weights. Curiously, C and L flexi track is just a tad narrow on gauge when measured with a P4 roller gauge, which obviously doesn't help matters, especially on curves. Also have you tried any rolling stock through the three way point yet? The reason I ask is because the crossing vees seem to have quite wide gaps which could cause derailments; it might just be the way the first photo was taken though.

Simon

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3317
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:22 am

I gave up on the C&L track on anything other than very large radius curves a long time ago as it always gave trouble, in spite of following Simon's glueing technique. Its a good timesaver for straight track but all my curves are now on ply.
Regards
Keith
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Simon Glidewell

Re: Drakelow

Postby Simon Glidewell » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:27 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:I gave up on the C&L track on anything other than very large radius curves a long time ago as it always gave trouble, in spite of following Simon's glueing technique. Its a good timesaver for straight track but all my curves are now on ply.
Regards
Keith


I think part of the problem is that the plastic is quite soft and there is sideways play/movement in the chairs when it's curved causing the angle of the rail to change.

paul_l
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:29 pm

Re: Drakelow

Postby paul_l » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:35 pm

Hi

Going back to your battery powered loco's, you could always have a section of track powered as charging track, then just park the loco over it for a few mins between moves.
These radio controlled helicopters etc, have the charging circuits built in to them, and take up very little space.

Paul

Bunchie3174

Re: Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:20 pm

The offending section has now been removed and will be relaid shortly. It was glued down with PVA aand weighted as you method. There was an odd section of about 1" that was undergauge, about 18.4mm, the rest was within tolerance. I had removed all the web from between the sleepers so it matched the Templot plan. I'm not sure if that would make a difference.
The 3 way is working well in terms of the stock I have to test it with, whether that will be the case later on, I don't know. The flange ways were checked with a society gauge so they must be right, or very near to.
The battery powered loco project is coming along slowly. I have assembled the Deltang Tx 12 channel kit and attached an Rx to a spare chassis (OO) to test. I'm hoping to implement it in a Hornby Cl25 once it's rewheeled. Currently I'm trying different battery options. LiPo seems the best way forward providing you have a suitable charger. I would remove the battery to charge until I'm sure I wouldn't melt the loco. I'm not that lucky to avoid a mishap like that. Finding LiPo battery packs which will fit is another matter.
It's all part of the joyous P4 learning curve so I appreciate your responses.

Bunchie3174

Re: Drakelow

Postby Bunchie3174 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:30 pm

An update on progress on Drakelow.
I've tried and tried to get wagons to run through the 3way but I'm not having much luck, I think because of the tight curvature. I'm going to take it up and start again.
I've been busy helping a friend make track for his layout but neglected my own projects. During this process I've gained some useful experience in turnout construction. (His layout is 00-sf but built with C&L components).
While I was thinking about it I found another section of board which I thought could extend the layout somewhat.
Basically I'm adding an L shape to the end of the layout in order to have a bigger fiddle yard/sector plate. The upshot is that the length of Drakelow will be extended from 1150mm to 1750mm. 600mm extra, of which 400mm will form the fiddle yard and 200mm will extend the scenic section.
The overall track plan will remain the same apart from the removal of the 3 way and the addition of a loco spur on the kick back siding. Due to the extra length I have made all the turnouts (bar one B5.5) B7 and lessened the radius of the curves. This should improve running.
I've got a few weeks off work with a broken hip so i should be able to make some progress, or go mad trying.


Return to “Standard Gauge Workbench”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests