Perhaps a not so good idea...

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KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:50 am

Will L wrote:
That's a good enough reason so don't let me put you off, but, don't Hornby have a J15 on the way?



Yes, just found it here: https://www.hornby.com/search/?q=J15

Well worth thinking about. On the other hand: Made in PRC :cry:

According to their website there are some kits in stock:http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

DougN
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby DougN » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:04 am

They (Hornby ) do Will....I suspect that we as modellers are now being spoiled by the RTR market let alone Alan Gibson who seems to have conversion kits as soon as a model is released :thumb

One day they are going to get around to doing some loco's that I actually want in P4 :shock:
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Ian Everett
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Ian Everett » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:49 am

Klaus, as Flymo says, this looks like a lovely project, with as much work needed on the buildings and boats as the rolling stock.

I'm with him on the guidelines issue and would like to make one suggestion. The layout as planned has a fiddle yard at each end, This implies either two operators - one per fiddle yard - or the single operator having to move from one fiddle yard to the other to set up trains. Even though they are only four feet apart it will be a nuisance.

Can I suggest a sneak-off line behind the scenic section, linked to the front line by either a hidden sector plate or turnout and head-shunt. The layout could then be operated from one end, without the operator having to obscure the view of the viewers.

I did this with both Humber Dock and Royston Vasey, very effectively

I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress.

Ian

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:16 am

Hi Ian,

Ian Everett wrote:Klaus, as Flymo says, this looks like a lovely project, with as much work needed on the buildings and boats as the rolling stock.


Fortunately Wells has not changed at the east quay very much. Google street view could provide some clues on the buildings. For the boats Artitec (available via Langley) has some nice punts available. Whether Thames barges moored at the east quay has to be veryfied bu[url]t would obscure the view anyway.

Ian Everett wrote: I'm with him on the guidelines issue and would like to make one suggestion. The layout as planned has a fiddle yard at each end, This implies either two operators - one per fiddle yard - or the single operator having to move from one fiddle yard to the other to set up trains. Even though they are only four feet apart it will be a nuisance.

Can I suggest a sneak-off line behind the scenic section, linked to the front line by either a hidden sector plate or turnout and head-shunt. The layout could then be operated from one end, without the operator having to obscure the view of the viewers.


I know that it would spoil the guidelines of the SGW but this is my trainset :mrgreen:

The Oakwood Press book arrived yesterday, the outcome:

Normally the harbour branch was served two times a day with the goods train locomotive providing the service up to the first run round loop before entering the east quay. With that low density of trains the original concept could be kept, although I might adapt some sort of sector plate, but then the posibility of using the two fiddle yard both from the front or the back would be impossible.

All shunting on the quays was then done by horse and later by lorry. Regarding the horse propulsion it would the be up to the High Level Fly Shunter with a fairly static horse. The lorry could be an alternative with the micro R/C components available equiped with AJ couplings?)

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Ian Everett
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Ian Everett » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:50 pm

KK92 wrote:All shunting on the quays was then done by horse and later by lorry. Regarding the horse propulsion it would the be up to the High Level Fly Shunter with a fairly static horse. The lorry could be an alternative with the micro R/C components available equiped with AJ couplings?)


When you've solved these problems, can I please borrow them for Humber Dock, next time it's exhibited? :) In reality it was shunted in the 1950s by tractors, and earlier by horses but I cheat and use 0-4-0Ts!

Boats drawn up on beaches and mud-flats, vernacular buildings, occasional trains - it all reminds me of Iliffe Stokes' layouts. Have you seen them in print?
See http://www.swindonworks.co.uk/george-il ... rtist.html

Ian

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:48 am

hi Ian,

Thanks for the link. Very athmospheric. Certainly the direction to go.

Regarding R/C'd tractors (even outside of Ipswich ;) ) it will get a bit difficult. A suitable basis for producing a lorry can be found here.http://www.roadtransportimages.com/

The relevant electrickity should be availble here: http://www.shop.kkpmo.com/index.php?cPath=299

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martinm
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby martinm » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:55 pm

If you were to opt for a slightly later period, there was always the Karrier ro-rail lorry.
Go to http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r137.html for more info.
martin

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John Bateson
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby John Bateson » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:54 pm

So the Cambridge guided bus is not so new after all?
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

Terry Bendall
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:09 am

Road/rail vehicles are very common now on the railway for civil enginering work. Excavators can often be seen parked up somewhere near to a line and various lorries can be fitted for road/rail use. Unlike the pre-way designs, the rail wheels are usually not powered and are in front of the road wheels. The road wheels run on the top of the rails and drive through friction. And yes I have seen a 4mm scale road/rail excavator made to move on the line, and it was in OO as well. :)

No relevance at all the the Wells project but good fun for layouts set in the appropriate period.

Terry Bendall

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martinm
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby martinm » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:29 pm

Did you mean something like this, Terry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B36PhUhPmuI
martin

Terry Bendall
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:26 pm

martinm wrote:Did you mean something like this


No quite but that looks like fun as well. :)

Terry Bendall

johnWM
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby johnWM » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:34 pm

The picture is a Francis Frith picture and is described as "Whelk boats at the Quay 1929"
http://www.francisfrith.com/wells-next- ... 29_81998t/

Its only a few weeks ago, i went up to Wells and parked my car more or less where that PO wagon is.
The building in the picture with the Bullards advert is still there. Several of the shops on the main part of the quay, the other side of the animal feed warehouse where flooded out in the tidal surge last autumn and are still not open for business.

On this old photograph sequence posted on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSdj_RMHw78

at 1 min 57 seconds there is a very atmospheric picture of even more wagons on the quayside at Wells. To get the trackwork authentic take a look at the amazing picture at 2 min 16 seconds.... and at 3 min 44s a photo of the same bit of quay wall as your photograph but looking in the opposite direction, your photo also appears in this sequence as well as on the Frith website collection.

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Dave K
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Dave K » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:07 am

johnWM wrote:On this old photograph sequence posted on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSdj_RMHw78


Loved all those old photos, but what is the large building with the walkway at 2nd/3rd floor level extending over the quay :?:

johnWM
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby johnWM » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:39 pm

The large building is a granary. The high gantry allowed loading and unloading of grain from ships without blocking the harbour road. It was built in around 1905.
It has now been converted into flats but the gantry is still there.
Wells harbour was important for fishing and to supply coal for the local area brought in by ship.
The arrival of the railway meant that coal transportation switched to the railway. Grain and malt where exported by ship, hence the granary. In the 60s and 70s, animal feed (eg soya beans) where imported from Belgium and the granary was in use for that purpose.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:45 am

Not that anybody thinks that I didn't do anything 'Wells wise'... ;)

I've taken one of the Easter days to mock up something of the layout.

I just happen some extruded styroform sheets that originally were intended for a P4 layout of some Isle of White terminus about 15 years ago. Yes, I never throw anything away :mrgreen.

With some carving it gives an impression of the lay of the land. Some left overs from previous track construction used to get an impression of the trackwork.

P1000284.JPG
view from the West
P1000284.JPG (278.71 KiB) Viewed 7641 times


I tried to capture the perspective of the photo that started it all:

P1000286.JPG
view from the West like old photo
P1000286.JPG (224.3 KiB) Viewed 7641 times


The original shot:

Image

Form the other side it looks like this:

P1000289.JPG
view from the East


What has been learnd is the following:

1. The two layers of 40 mm boards a are tho thick giving a scale hight of 10'. Thinner boards will be used.
2. A deepth of about 36 centimeters will be sufficient.
3. The whole build will be slid into a ply box that will contain everything from the background to the lighting (LED?) and the appropriate connections to the two fiddle yards (casset type).

A first in converting a 00 kit to P4 for a long time some weathering still pending:

P1000288.JPG
PO wagon
P1000288.JPG (277.09 KiB) Viewed 7641 times


Instant motive power dug up:

P1000294.JPG
J94


So far for now apart from a last thought on complying to the 'rules' of the SGW. I might add a wagon turntable in the running line (are locomotives allowed to cross it?) allowing acces to the yard of the customs office.

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Will L
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Will L » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:56 am

KK92 wrote:I might add a wagon turntable in the running line (are locomotives allowed to cross it?) allowing acces to the yard of the customs office.


Not normally. Never say never.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:29 am

Will L wrote:
KK92 wrote:I might add a wagon turntable in the running line (are locomotives allowed to cross it?) allowing acces to the yard of the customs office.


Not normally. Never say never.


Well, then an additional rule for working the harbor branch has to be issues that running trains should only travers the turntable with caution. Additionally some serious locking mechnism should be fitted to the turn table... :mrgreen:

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:55 pm

Here's one http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67420-hornby-class-101-tank-engine-is-real/#
Mind you Swindon works probably had stronger turntables than most.
Keith
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Keith
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MPR
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby MPR » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:46 pm


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Will L
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Will L » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:54 pm

I'm pretty sure there were also small turntables in use at Stratford works and these must have been capable of the full 40T+ of a loco. I doubt they were the same thing as the real wagon turntables which were doted around the rest of the GER and probably weren't up to anything more than a 20T, as loaded wagons that heavy came quite late. Running your loco across one of those is asking for it to be sitting uncomfortably in a pile of broken cast iron scrap. Layouts with wagon turntables were typically shunted by horse, or occasional, capstans.

In the past I have consider a layout with such a wagon turntable, but it was near the end of a siding and if a loco needed to shunt a wagons across it, it would use additional "reach" wagons so the loco itself didn't need to cross the turntable.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:44 am

The whole issue that I see with locating a turntable in the running line (even if that line is considered with in yard limits and is only worked by shunting moves) that it will be passed by complete trains. Apart from the maximum permitted load (let’s suppose a J15 0-6-0 and tender) it will be about firmly locking the turntable for such moves. I would say that it is absolutely unlikely (apart from the 'there's an prototype for everything' saying).

A possible solution would be to locate the turntable on the siding and cross the running line at a right angle. The only concern here is that the distance between the quay wall and the siding will not allow the room for a turntable.
I will do some checks with the mock-up.

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Will L
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Will L » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:10 am

In the prototype for everything department comes this plan of the early Euston. Locos and trains will have crossed some of these.
Image
and a picture of one of the of the actual turntables.
Image
not much in the way of locking visible at that stage! But then there wasn't on the points at that time either.
Image

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:49 am

I too like waggon turntables...the advantage of modelling early railways like my Dartmouth c 1875 is that rules and 'elth&safety did not apply...so I can put them wherever I like...see SGW display at Scaleforum...... :)

MPR
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby MPR » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:09 pm

Saw this on DP Review - a lovely selection of colour slides from August 1939.
You might want to check out image 20...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/04/25/1939-england-in-color-part-1/20

Best wishes

Martin

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martinm
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby martinm » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:14 pm

Unusually a matched set of 3 wagons on the quay - PO coke wagons, but whose?
martin


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