Perhaps a not so good idea...

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KK92

Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:03 am

Good morning from Germany,

I've been a member of the society some years ago, then a shift in gauges and job comitments resulted in my P4 equipment being mothballed. I did not got very far except a converted J94, some wagons, a switch and some track.

I finally re-discovered these things while cleaning up my workshop. Well one thing lead to another and here I am...


Thinking about a small theme to get something running, I stumbled over Wantage town station. Now here perhaps comes the 'not so good idea' from the topic :?:

I would like to model the Wantage tram as it was running in the early 20's. One of the tram locomotives, 3 ex horse tram carriages and a few privat owner and older mainline wagons to supply the gas works and Wantage Engeneering.

Worsley Works aready supplied some Wantage themed etchings for No. 4 and three coaches. I have to highlight the very fast service!

Now realizing how small No. 4 really is, made me think the first time whether that was a good idea. The drive would not be the problem but the wheels!

Anybody in for 10 mm diameter 6 spoke driving wheels (crank pin in line with the spoke of course :shock: ) :?:

Well there are other locos...

OK, now moving over to designing the track layout finds me fumbling with Templot. I have to say that this is a very sophisticated programm. Was it not Wantage station with a set of sharp Y-turnouts, I suppose I would have already been done. But these very short Y-turnouts...

I certainly have to diagnose a shortage on templates for such short things ;)

Better not hold your breath...

...progress might be veeeeery slooooow ;)

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Mark Tatlow » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:24 am

Find issue 217 of the Model Railway Journal.

Simon de Souza (who is a member but is not a regular forum poster) wrote an article on building No 4. I had thought he had written other things on the Wantage Tramway too but can't find them (they may have been in other magazines).
Mark Tatlow

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:13 am

Thanks Mark,

From what I see in the MRJ Index this is an article about coach no 4. not the locomotive. It seems that the Wantage Tramway Co. has numbered lcomotives and coaches partly with the same numbers. I don't have the book at hand to confirm this.

There was a second article in the MRJ by Simon des Souza about the goods office in the lower yard (issue 148).

Philip Hall
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:24 am

Simon also wrote an article on building a small building in Wantage yard, I think. It was in MRJ a fair while ago but I don't have access to mine just now. One of the online indices (there are links on the Society website) should find it.

Philip

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:12 pm

Thanks Philip,

That must have been MRJ 148 (unfortunately unobtainable). The building was Goods Office in the Wantage Lower Yard. I suppose that was the canal warf yard not the town yard, but Im maybe wrong.

Cheers
Klaus

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MarkS
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby MarkS » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:01 pm

Wantage articles in MRJ:

A WANTAGE WAREHOUSE IN 4mm - #52
LAYOUT DESIGN -- Wantage - #75
Structure Modelling in Plastic - a full-on finescale approach - #148
Wantage Tramway Co. Tramcar No. 4. - #217

There are also various articles on the locos

HTH,
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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steamraiser
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby steamraiser » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:50 pm

Robin Gay is researching and building Wantage Town in P4.
His current layout is Rolvendon.

Robins e-mail address is robinontheweb@gmail.com
I dont think he is on this forum.

Gordon A
Bristol

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Ian Everett
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Ian Everett » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm

Sounds like a very good idea!

This looks like just the sort of subject suited for the Standard Gauge Workbench. See

http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2801&p=25091&hilit=standard+gauge+workbench#p25064

Ian

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:50 am

Hi Ian,

Ian Everett wrote:Sounds like a very good idea!

This looks like just the sort of subject suited for the Standard Gauge Workbench.


This is exactly the direction in which the project (hopefully) will head.

Although I'm not writing anything it does not mean that nothing is going on ;)

Before any serious building can commence I need to get the footprint of the upper Wantage layed down. This will mean, getting Templot learned properly :?

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:36 am

Dear all,

So now that the pressure is rising I need to give some status on that project, I suppose.

So what has happened? (besides that this thread has been moved :twisted: )

Friday the second book about the Wantage tramway arrived with more information. Together with these were two MRJ (52 and 217) arrived too.

Sunday was a big break through: I finally seem to understand the way Templot works and got my first Y-turnout build. With a rudimentary OS map as a background I got working on the track layout. It will take some reworking by using a propperly scaled map. This will then show whether everything will fit into specs of the SGW :geek:

The Huges tram has a rudimentary chassis build, pic to follow. Because of it's tiny dimensions some ingenuity must be applied. I still have the urge to conceal the mechanism within the boiler :?

And the wheels...
Last edited by KK92 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ian Everett
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Ian Everett » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:23 am

KK92 wrote:
So what has happened?


Your thread has also been moved to the Standard Gauge Workbench section.

Just a hint. :wink:

(It could always be moved somewhere else if your plans change.)

Ian

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:21 am

OK, long time no see...

Things are not as they might appear... ;)

Gathering of information regarding track building commenced and a first try to build flat bottom track using riveted plywood sleepers used the other way round emploing some Märklin Z gauge rails (Code 55 I suppose) let to the following insight:

    the rail is quite fiddley

    Soldering the Rail do the rivets chars the sleepers

    It is verry important to align the rivets correctly as otherwise the contact area between the rail foot and the rivet is not centered properly and results in a bad joint

    The rail head is to narrow to use the society rail gauges properly. The three point gauge could be shimmed with some Evergreen styrene strip but the Type 'A' gauge does not "grip" the rail head so it is difficult to align the second rail to the strip of one rail soldered to the sleepers for correct curvature

Any information about the C&L code 40 FB rails width of the rail head?

Nevertheless I managed to convert an Cambrian PO to P4...

Alan Turner
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:51 am

If you are looking for base-plates for FB rail, rather than rivets you could look at these: http://www.proto87.com/n-scale-track.html

regards

Alan

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:10 pm

Hi Alan,

Thnaks for pointing that out, but I doubt that the Wantage Tramway had these.

I'm currently more inclined to use copperclad PC ties.

Reading a bit further it seems that most of its existance the Wantage Tram was running over Bridge Rail on longitudinal sleepers.

Some early views of the upper yard suggest that.

I suppose the whole thing will end up by the whole track covered in ballast (ash or something similar) nearly up to the foot of the rail and over the sleepers.

Therefor I think copperclad ties will be the simplest solution.

Alan Turner
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:42 pm

I was going to suggest direct soldering to PCB but you seemed wedded to wooden sleepers.

regards

Alan

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:24 pm

Hi Alan,

Life's defenitely to short to firmly adhere to principles... ;)

The thing more important than to decide on the type of sleepers is to decide on the period I like to model Wantage upper yard.

I think this determines the type of rail used; bridge or flat bottom.

The deeper I dive into this project the more I realize what a specialist theme this seems to get.

The track building techniques of the 1870's need thoroughly studying. For a tramway the GW broad gauge standarts certainly do not apply.

Perhaps I should go for BH rail on chaired BS sleepers and build a fictonal Scottish habour scene first? :?: :?

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:13 am

OK, now enough of the blather about what and when in Wantage.

I'm certainly getting disorganized in P4.

The Wantage theme will be shelved for the time being because of the following unresolved aspects:

- How do you build a remotely working pole coupling that were used by the passenger trains?
- What kind of track to use?
- The track formation is really special.

And now to something completely different... ;)

I surely needed a relief from all the Wantage thinking. What better to do than looking up a total different subject? I retired to a book called "Inshore Craft: Traditional Working Vessels of the British Isles" A book on the costal (and some inland) work boats (most sailing) by region. But railways were never far away...

I found this picture in the book and afterwards onhttp://www.wellsnextthesea.info:
Image

Besides the boat, that is the main focus in the book's context, lurks at the right on the quay wall what seems to be a 7 plank PO wagon.

Now identifying the location was easy and the picture actually shows what would be a perfect cameo for a first go in P4. (Have I mentioned that I have not yet built a layout?).

To make the story short: An internet research and the purchase of an old map later I came up with what is a SGW cut out of the Wells-Next-The-Sea East Quay:

https://fotos.gmx.net/ui/external/eTBiw ... vEv3A55601

The fascinating aspect is that the entire scene will fit the given width of 1 Meter, 43 Centimeters and 5 Millimeters (you can substitute imperial measurements if you really need to :twisted: ) without compromises.
The track sneaking between houses is appealing too and two building standing in front of the track making excellent disguises for entering and exiting the scene.

The layout would be viewed from the sea side against the backdrop of the building lining the track and the rooflines of the town. Cassette fiddle yards at both ends.

And now to the downside: There is only one point, no turntable. :shock:

The operational posibilities are quite limited, but as every train to and from the main harbor has to pass through this scene it is a good way to show off a lot of different rolling stock as there were:

- a minimum of three malt houses
- the granary
- the harbor
- and it seems that in earlier times a lot of coal was off loaded because of the convenient location to the town.

Unfortunately there is no indication whether the harbour was worked by locomotives. Maybe some modeler’s license must be applied here as long as the DCC controlled 4mm scale horse has not been successfully build.

The period would be GER, currently there is an old Alan Gibson F7 on my workbench that I managed to find in my collection of unmade kits ;) I know it might be not very well suited to the tight corners on the approach to the harbor but it would have to do for a start. One of the GER 0-6-0 tender engines would have been more likely.

The main focus of the layout would be the modelling of the building and a realistic representation of the shore.

I have to admit that I somehow are not very good at applying selective compression in designing layouts, otherwise there might be a possibility of including at least a second point.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:20 am

KK92 wrote:I found this picture in the book and afterwards


A supurb atmostphere about that picture and an ideal SGW starting point.

KK92 wrote:And now to the downside: There is only one point, no turntable.


Yes but the idea does allow you to concerntrate on the scenery and try to replicate the atmosphere. Whilst the operational aspects are limited there are limitations and it is more achievable. I would tend towards not including a second turnout.

Terry Bendall

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Flymo748
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:29 am

KK92 wrote:I found this picture in the book and afterwards onhttp://www.wellsnextthesea.info:
Image

To make the story short: An internet research and the purchase of an old map later I came up with what is a SGW cut out of the Wells-Next-The-Sea East Quay:

The track sneaking between houses is appealing too and two building standing in front of the track making excellent disguises for entering and exiting the scene.

And now to the downside: There is only one point, no turntable. :shock:

The period would be GER, currently there is an old Alan Gibson F7 on my workbench that I managed to find in my collection of unmade kits ;) I know it might be not very well suited to the tight corners on the approach to the harbor but it would have to do for a start. One of the GER 0-6-0 tender engines would have been more likely.

The main focus of the layout would be the modelling of the building and a realistic representation of the shore.


That is an absolutely lovely prototype, and b***er the "guidelines" of the SGW!

It will be fantastic to see something like that taking shape, and I wish you all the very best with it.

Do write up the F7 build when you start on it. I have a couple of the AG kits to build as the locomotives just slip into my chosen period by a couple of years...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Will L
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Will L » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:46 am

The F7 isn't very likely (an under statement I'm afraid), almost certainly J15 country, better news is that I think there were supposed to be some points there abouts. See below (all found on the Wells website you alreday know about).
There is a nice little book on the Wells Branch from the Oakwood press. No 73 in their railway history series.
Image
Image

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Andy W
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Andy W » Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:20 am

A very interesting prototype. I know the quayside quite well - it's now a car park with a terrifying, unguarded drop into the water. The memory of parking there brings on a cold sweat. I hope this gets built.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:07 am

Thank you all for the encouragement.

The construction will be relatively straightforward with some extruded styrene board. Some MDF background will show an overcast sky.

I'm not 100% sure whether using a Feather switch motor (http://feather.ch/products-and-small-pa ... otors.html) to throw the point would be technical overkill, but I would like to make the whole thing operable from both the front and the back. On both sides a cassette type fiddle yard would be responsible for the input and output of the scenic section. For all three sections I would use some theatrical stage setting. The fiddle yards would be arrange so that by swapping the left with the right one the openings are either on the same side as the scenic section (to allow operation at home) or with the fiddle yards opening to the back for exhibition use.

I suppose the maximum permitted length of 1 Meter, 43 Centimeters and 5 Millimeters of the scenic section refers to the does include the thickness of the boards on the left and right?

Regarding the F7, this is a project that I had started the last time I was member of the S4 Society and that was more than 15 years ago. I have to admit that I did not get beyond soldering the horn guides to the frames. The whole assembly has now been resoldered and I hope this time to get the things better aligned. I will open another thread on this.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:57 am

Will L wrote:The F7 isn't very likely (an under statement I'm afraid), almost certainly J15 country, better news is that I think there were supposed to be some points there abouts. See below (all found on the Wells website you alreday know about).
There is a nice little book on the Wells Branch from the Oakwood press. No 73 in their railway history series.


The thing is that the F7 kit is simply there... ;)

Alternatively a Dapol J94 (in BR guise) is available that would do well on P4 metals, but that's certainly not GER.

A J15 would be my fist choice but has to wait until I get something build layout wise.

Oakwood book on order.

KK92

Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby KK92 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:30 am

Not a mock-up but a sketch how thing might look (not to scale!):

Image

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Will L
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Re: Perhaps a not so good idea...

Postby Will L » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:51 am

KK92 wrote:The thing is that the F7 kit is simply there... ;)


That's a good enough reason so don't let me put you off, but, don't Hornby have a J15 on the way?

Your sketch looks very atmospheric.


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