Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-1971

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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Tor Giffard
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Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-1971

Postby Tor Giffard » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:07 pm

Suppliers list for less common items for anyone interested in replicating this approach:

Brass entomological pins used for droppers/electrical connections....Watkins & Doncaster
Silicon .8mm wall (.5mm inside dia.) tube used as bushing for the above pins...Silex silicones
Twist drills in uncommon sizes....Meadows & Passmore clockmakers supplies


Aft'noon all,

TG is a long term project (10 years plus) and is intended to tick the following boxes for me:

Motivation....I've enjoyed many (mostly long gone) aspects of the former LSWR routes of North Devon & Cornwall through books, pictures & visits to the area over many years. TG will be a collection of my favourite aspects: curving girder bridges, Bulleid pacifics, diesel hydraulics etc based mainly on the traffic flow through Coleford jcn where the Exeter - Barnstaple and Exeter to Plymouth routes diverged.

Something different......I've not come across a sectional layout (6ft x 2ft panels) constructed in aluminium/stainless & brass before

An engineering angle....partly covered by the materials used (listed above) but I'm also enjoying experimenting with polycarbonate, nylon etc too

Prototypical curves/pointwork....as a former BR heavy freight driver I was used to checking the line ahead for any potential problems and simply became used to the appearance of trackwork on the big railway. It doesn't occur to me to not use scale curves/pointwork. End to end was therefore the only sensible option for the layout.

Scale length trains....having the option to run a 10 coach ACE rake (and watch the line/appearance of its length as it negotiates the scenic section), with a short freight etc passing in the opposite direction, or else approaching from the Barnstaple route at the junction is part of recreating everyday railway operation.

Stockwise....TG will be 'train in the landscape' in appearance with minimum viewing distances of around 3ft (but commonly 6ft) therefore an excess of modified RTR stock won't detract from the onlookers experience.

Electronically I'm relatively unambitious...a straightforward 12V DC system will cover my needs.

Operationally...a crew of 3 is intended (as Jim SW correctly identifies, 4 would be more sensible to allow for breaks etc).

The excessive length of TG is simply down to having a reasonable 20ft x 10ft scenic section fed from each side by 20ft fiddle yards. The time consuming aspect of its construction is the scenic section...the fiddle yard frames are relatively quick to build.

The first 2 years of progress can be seen here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... 71/page-10

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:09 pm

Nice to see Torr Gifford over here. It is an interesting prototype and I am regularly in Barnstable, so am familiar with the prototype (although not that much remains!).

Do post the updates here too; as it is much easier (and more pleasant) to follow it.
Mark Tatlow

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:48 pm

Hi Dave

60ft of exhibition space for only 20 ft of layout space doesn't seem all that appealing. Your crew of 3 is also not allowing for someone to be on lunch.

Might I suggest you could have generous 10ft radius curves (none scenic) at the ends and make it roundy roundy. That would be much more appealing to exhibition managers.

(I only say as my original plan for new street was 8ft scenic with 2 8ft fiddleyards but all the exhibition managers I spoke to about it had objections)

Hth

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:03 am

Jim,

Public access is only required to the scenic section...the remainder can have other stands/layouts etc in front of it, hence the space isn't wasted. At the Exeter end the fiddle yard will be 4ft max width, at the Plymouth/Barnstaple end 6ft and in the middle a bulge of 10ft approx. (for the scenic section). I did have conversations with several exhibition managers before embarking on this project...the response being that as long as public access wasn't required to all parts of the layout then there wasn't a problem.... a long thin layout would be no bigger issue to accommodate than a large circuit layout.... a mixture of layout shapes also making the exhibition more interesting, as well as helping the organisers to make best use of the overall space available.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:19 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:Nice to see Torr Gifford over here. It is an interesting prototype and I am regularly in Barnstable, so am familiar with the prototype (although not that much remains!).

Do post the updates here too; as it is much easier (and more pleasant) to follow it.


Thanks for the welcome Mark...I appreciate that the layout building updates 'go on a bit' but I'm trying to use them as an 'aide memoir' because I'll never remember all of the details by the time the layout is another year or two down the road. Those who wish to understand the 'nitty gritty' of the layout also have the chance to do so.

Dave

Terry Bendall
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:01 pm

Looks like lots of interesting things are planned for Tor Giffard. Looking back at the thread in another place it looks very impressive.

jim s-w wrote:60ft of exhibition space for only 20 ft of layout


i think I would tend to agree. Staverton, built by my son and myself, had a 28 foot scenic section with 10 foot fiddle yards at each end. It was withdrawn because the invitations dried up, which may have had something to do with the length although the stock will appear at some stage in the future on a different layout.

Tor Giffard wrote:the remainder can have other stands/layouts etc in front of it,


Yes it might but with an exhibition organiser's hat on, this will not always work and may lead to awkward shaped gangways. :( We have two large layouts planned for Scaleforum this year, and one that is a bit smaller. They will all fit but the two that are a continuous run have not caused any problems in fitting them in. Arguably a continuous run is easier to operate. Still in the end its your train set. :)

Terry Bendall

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Tim V
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tim V » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:13 pm

An end to end layout is also expensive in terms of stock (as you need two yards worth), with very labour intensive off scene work (in the "fiddle" yards). Much better to have a roundy roundy with staging roads. Less "fiddling", less stock handling. Been doing it for years on Clutton. Also requires less operators.
Tim V
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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:19 pm

....weighing the considerations Terry....I can't bring myself to use the suggested radius curves and take comfort in the fact that the bulk of my pleasure is in the design & build processes. The risk of the layout having only occasional airings doesn't depress me to the extent that "train set" curves do, therefore, I'll take my chances on being able to produce something that is sufficiently sought after, so as to make the potential inconvenience of 'fitting it in' worthwhile for the organisers.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:30 pm

Tim V wrote:An end to end layout is also expensive in terms of stock (as you need two yards worth), with very labour intensive off scene work (in the "fiddle" yards). Much better to have a roundy roundy with staging roads. Less "fiddling", less stock handling. Been doing it for years on Clutton. Also requires less operators.


...I was a member at Barrowmore for several years Tim and enjoyed the advantages of 'Mostyn' in the way that you suggest at various exhibitions. However, this layout (TG) won't happen if the price to be paid is the radius curves required to create the circuit. I admit that balancing the number of operators, with sufficient activity on the scenic section to keep the public happy is a challenge but it is one that I'm going to tackle. As for handling of stock...only at setting up, dismantling and at times of derailment or stall.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim V
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tim V » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:47 pm

The curves at the end would create a space in the middle, to be filled with scenery, rolling hills, beginning to sound a lot like Petherick - now that was a stunning and different layout.
Tim V
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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:14 pm

...there are many stunning circular layouts Tim but my motivation for building this layout includes not compromising on the curves. Every layout designer makes compromises....having the autonomy to decide where is part of the joy of such a project.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:35 pm

Hi Dave

I suggested non scenic curves, 10 ft radius is large for that but still raises your scenic to non senic ratio from 33% to 50%. It also allows you much more storage space but thinking about it unless your trains are going to completely fill the scenic section you don't need anything like 20ft fiddleyards either end anyway.

We always operated Amlwch with a team of three and operate Moor street with 4. Both of those layouts have only 1 fiddleyard though.

Hth

Jim

Terry Bendall
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:39 am

Pulborough, which has a 30foot scenic section, has 8 foot fiddle yards are each end. We do a lot more shunting than may take place on Tor Giffard but we found that we need a fiddle yard operator at each end, two drivers - one for each direction, a signalman and a shunter.

Tor Giffard wrote:As for handling of stock...only at setting up, dismantling


With fiddle yards that appear from the plan to be a fan of sidings will there not be a need to handle locos? if so then you might need at least 4 people just to work the fiddle yards and drive. You then might need at least one spare person for lunch break relief.

An alternative to a fan of sidings is to use a traverser with loco cassettes as used on Pulborough, Staverton, Ravenscroft Sidings, Elcot Road and probably others as well - describd by me in News No 176. A traverser does save space but as Tim says there is less fiddling with a roundy roundy layout, except where you might have the same freight train coming back in the opposite direction with empty open wagons, and need to swap the loco, brake van if used, and remove the loads - another thing done on Pulborough and Staverton and always interesting to see since it shows that traffic flows have been considered.

Tor Giffard wrote: comfort in the fact that the bulk of my pleasure is in the design & build processes.


Of course. Its your train set etc. But if the number of invitations is not large it can be disappointing. Of couse if you have room to set up and run the layout at home that will help.

And we will of course have to reserve a space for you at Scaleforum - 2024? But I might not be organising it by then. :)

Terry Bendall

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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:09 am

Terry,

There will be 2ft dia. turntable/traverser facilities at the end of each fiddle yard, there will also be a shunt release road in each yard (effectively making each yard 10 road capacity) but there won't be any cassettes. As for the number of appearances annually for the layout 2-3 would be ideal...I need plenty of time to stock the layout and there is only so many times per that anyone wants to hear of the same layout at an exhibition.

Jim,

The length of the fiddle yard roads is not set in stone and I may yet decide on a maximum 10 coach train length with single occupancy...that should reduce the overall length to nearer 50ft. As for the curves...I'm not a fan of other than scale radius curves in any part of the layout.

Dave

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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:29 am

Hi Dave

You've already said you will be using tighter on the scenic section (10 chains). The curves I'm talking about are closer to 12 chains. As the mostyn guys have proven much tighter curves than that do work perfectly. You would still have nearly 10ft of space to operate in the middle if that's what you chose to do.

There's an example layout on the circuit that despite the excellent modelling and very clever fiddleyard is quite viewer unfriendly and seems difficult to operate. It's your train set at the end of the day but I do think you are making some strange design choices that will lead to frustration later. Better to say now than when it's too late I'm sure you agree but I don't want to labour the point so I'll drop it now.

With you 100% on the building aspect ;)

Cheers

Jim

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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Natalie Graham » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:10 am

Tim V wrote:An end to end layout is also expensive in terms of stock (as you need two yards worth),


Eh? How does that work? Surely if you have ten trains and they go through the station at the rate of one per minute (by way of example) it doesn't matter whether they have gone round the back or from one end to the other. The two yards can just be the one yard divided and have the same capacity, can't they? I can see it being more expensive in terms of paint though as you have to paint both sides of the locos. ;)

Conceptually, I much prefer an end-to-end layout as I like the idea that the trains go from somewhere to somewhere else and then come back again as they do on the full size railway. In operation even more so if it means that the trains are re-arranged before they return so that the same loco is not pulling the same train of the same wagons and coaches every time it comes round. I also appreciate it when you can see the fiddle yards of end-to-end layouts as it gives you the chance to not only see how they are built and operated but also to get a good look at the stock while it is stationary rather than as it passes through the scenic bit of the layout. I am not really a fan of the current trend to present the scenic part of the layout as if it were a stage set and then hide the rest of the layout out of sight behind curtains or display boards.

The layout could always be built as an end to end with curved boards inserted as desired to allow for either 90 or 180 degree sections at either end giving the choice of a straight layout, a U-shape, an L-shape or, if the curves at one end were sufficiently different in radius to allow it, for the fiddle yards to be one behind the other in a rectangular format. That could make it potentially more appealing to exhibition managers who would have a number of options available to them to fit the space they have available. I guess there are more options available down south and perhaps space is more at a premium but often exhibitions I have been to up here seemed to have more space than layouts.

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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:27 am

Natalie Graham wrote:Conceptually, I much prefer an end-to-end layout as I like the idea that the trains go from somewhere to somewhere else and then come back again as they do on the full size railway. In operation even more so if it means that the trains are re-arranged before they return so that the same loco is not pulling the same train of the same wagons and coaches every time it comes round.


This is exactly what happens on Pulborough, and was part of the plan from the start. Since the main feature is a large county station with a branch that joins the main line a little south of the station (Not modelled) we also have such things as the branch line train coming in and the loco being turned on the turntable and then running round and tail traffic being attached to and detached from main line trains, and lots of other interesting movements as well. In other words prototypical operation and all based on a working timetable from the period.

Natalie Graham wrote:I also appreciate it when you can see the fiddle yards of end-to-end layouts


I think a lot of people like doing that, and although we employ screens, mainly to stop little fingers from touching they are low enough for adults to look over.

Natalie Graham wrote:perhaps space is more at a premium but often exhibitions I have been to up here seemed to have more space than layouts.


The only Scottish exhibition I have been to is Model Rail Scotland which probably is not typical of most exhibitions in Scotland, just as Warley is not really typical of those that happen in England. However I don't think space is a regional thing. Now that Scaleforum has moved to a larger venue we have the space to accommodate more than one large layout and we will be doing so this year.

Terry Bendall

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Rod Cameron » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:00 am

At the risk of going OT, there's no reason of course why you can't run a prototypical end-to-end service with a roundy roundy, and such a fiddle yard will almost always enable you to run longer trains than you could accommodate in a conventional end-on FY. And you can always relax and watch the trains go round if that pleases you. Whether this makes the layout easier or more difficult to accommodate in an exhibition will depend on the individual circumstances.
Rod

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:54 pm

Aft'noon all,

One of the early Templot sketches which I did for TG used the continuous fiddle yards route..this has parallels with Jim SW's suggestion.

10 C Vers 8.jpg


There would be a lengthy arrival/departure line linking the larger yard at the back of the layout directly with the points at the Exeter end (r/h end) of the scenic section/fiddle section boundary, to provide an easy option should train(s) need to be arrived quickly in the fiddle yard section in order to keep the job going. With the positioning of the Barnstaple/Plymouth route junction full length trains can travel off the scenic section on either route at the scale 40 mph and not be slowed down until the back end has cleared the scenic section...still with sufficient space to stand clear of the junction within the fiddle yard. The doubling of the Barnstaple route exit from the fiddle yard almost as far as the scenic section allows the next up train to be left waiting clear of the junction points within the fiddle yard. The lengthy arrival road from the Exeter end also doubles as a diversionary route in the event of points failures in the complex linked yard section and helps ensure that trains continue to run....a similar option is available via the Barnstaple route storage sidings at the l/h end. The pointwork allowing reversals/runrounds/switching from the up to the down line etc within the fiddles section is shown in the centrally located freight sidings in the larger yard.

I have a max baseframe width of 2ft which limits the number of roads on the 10 chain sections around each end of the oval but allows more roads along the straighter back stretch. In the light of the comments within this thread I have no issue in re-visiting the options for TG. The scenic section will be unchanged, if the continuous fiddle yard approach is adopted.

Using a 10 chain limit on the curves the layout would check out at 38ft x 20ft approx. overall.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:32 am, edited 25 times in total.

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Ian Everett
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Ian Everett » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:17 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:At the risk of going OT, there's no reason of course why you can't run a prototypical end-to-end service with a roundy roundy,


That's how both Tim Venton's Clutton and Mike Norris' Preston are run.

And you don't get more authentic operation to timetable than with these layouts.

Ian

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:39 pm

Evenin' all,

The potential roundy-roundy version of TG with the alternative fiddle yard arrangement is now shown above as a Templot sketch. There are options to extend the number of sidings/capacity as the layout progresses but I feel that this is more than equal to the early stages of the layout. The scenic section will be unchanged.

Key considerations now include checking the number of baseframes required and how they'll fit in the workroom.

Dave

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jim s-w
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby jim s-w » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:32 am

Looks good Dave. What's the little yard on the right for?

Should be much easier to operate and you can just use the half of th curves for testing the scenic section in a much smaller space than your original plan would need.

Cheers

Jim

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:47 am

...there will still be 3 fiddle yards Jim (as per the other plan) for capacity over time...they're just arranged end on and oval/circular instead of being 3 separate entities. My max baseframe width is 2ft which equates to 11 roads on the straight and less on the curved sections, therefore siding capacity can be an issue for a layout such as this. Also, there will be a number of short trains on TG and these sidings will be an ideal home for them.

The track won't be built all at once...I'll focus on getting things running and add to it as time permits.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tor Giffard
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Tor Giffard » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Evenin' all,

Current progress involves creating the latticework struts for fitting between the caissons. 1mm & 2mm 'L' section brass was sourced from Eileen's, the 2mm sections spaced at 8mm and 1mm diagonals fitted at regular intervals...the two peg technique was used to maintain the angle & spacing of the 1mm sections. The 1mm 'L' retains a 5mm section between the 2mm longitudinals but either side is filed flat for soldering into place and producing a prototypical appearance. For every 3-4 diagonals inserted the vernier caliper is used to ensure a uniform width. Any width deviation of the assembly over distance then being fettled with the soldering iron whilst the assembly is being held against the long brass straight edges. See

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Q3ytoiukV3o

Once the 250mm length is complete it will be sliced in half and soldered back to back to form the lattice style on the prototypes.

The style of latticework involved is similar to that in the bowstring arches of the Little Petherick Creek viaduct seen in this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4TGs-2XWbc

...albeit the lattice sections for the task in hand will be straight/parallel sided.

Two misaligned diagonals disturbed by the width correction, fettled since the camcorder footage was done.

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Tor Giffard (TG) former LSWR routes of North Devon 1951-

Postby Russ Elliott » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:21 am

Tor Giffard wrote:http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Q3ytoiukV3o

Couldn't view that one, Dave, without 'creating a channel'.


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