Modelling harbour points

[glynrb]

Hi,

I'm building my first P4 model loosely based on the the tracks at the M Shed in Bristol Docks, and I'm having trouble with the points. To my untutored eye a number of them look a bit like tram points and the small radius Triang points from the early 60s (yes, it has taken me about 53 years to get to P4). They also look to be very small radius. I don't remember seeing any locomotives going over these points when I was a child, and I'm not sure that I can see a Pannier tank negotiating them.

I'm sure that many others have built points like this, but I can't find anything describing how to construct them. I'm particularly exercised by the hinges - I can't think of a reliable way to build them. I seem to remember that the Triang points had a flimsy rivet.

Any information would be very welcome indeed!

Thanks,

Glyn

[Mark Tatlow]

Take look at Proto87 stores;
http://www.proto87.com/index.html

They do some etchings for the head of the rail and the thin checkrail that you get with inset rail. It is aimed for trams mostly, but does look good.

[Tim V]

That track was not used by Panniers, but by the PBA locos.

There is a specification for industrial standard gauge track with loose heel switches for setting into concrete, I don't know if Templot covers this.

(edited for second sentence)

[glynrb]

Mark, many thanks for the lead - It looks like what I need.

Tim, Oops - I was too young to notice that they were Pecketts and not GWR PT's (should have twigged when I saw Henbury last time I was in Bristol). As it's my first P4 model (and my first layout in 40 years) I'm going to have to start off with modified RTR Pannier tanks. When I've improved my skills I can build a couple of kits. I can't find the wheelbase of the Peckett locos, but they appear to be closer to the 5700 class than the 1366 class. Do you think that Panniers would be able to negotiate these apparently very tight curves? If not, I guess I'll have to make them gentler than the prototype.

Thanks

Glyn

[Martin Wynne]

There is a specification for industrial standard gauge track with loose heel switches for setting into concrete, I don't know if Templot covers this.

Drawings and dimensions for short industrial turnouts are at: http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot_ ... industrial

I don't know if turnouts specifically for use in roadways differ in dimensions from these, I don't see any reason why they should.

Templot can do anything for which you can enter the relevant data. To match prototype data exactly it is usually necessary to set a "generic" type V-crossing and change to CLM crossing angle (instead of RAM).

regards,

Martin.

[Ian Everett]

Have a look at how I did the track for Humber Dock at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62837-humber-dock/ and despair at its crudity!

I just drew the track (with curves of about 18" radius) on some paper, stuck down some copper-cad sleepers fairly randomly and cut crossings and point blades to fit, on the basis that the layout would be viewed at eye level and the sleepers would be hidden under Howard scenics embossed setts. Thus I paid more attention to the authenticity of the buildings and civil engineering than the track, which would be very inconspicuous.

Dusk.jpg

I did try to use Ambis' etched tramway track but could not get it smooth - cutting the etched tabs distorted it.

Posted in the hope that you will learn from my mstakes But it does work as long as appropriate rolling stock is used, which means short wheel base wagons and equivalent sized locos (in my case an LNER Y7 and a Sentinel shunter) with long couplings, to avoid buffer lock. On the real Humber Dock in Hull individual wagons were pushed and pulled about by tractors, and before them, horses.

Sorry - I'm an unconverted pragmatist - I hope this isn't too shocking. I'm expecting the Scalefour Inquisition at the door any time now.

But seriously, I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress. Would your layout qualify for the Standard Gauge Workshop? See the guidelines at the snappily-titled http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=2802

Ian

[grovenor-2685]

Hinges for fixed heel switches can be done by using a brass fishplate and soldering to the closure rail, the switch rail will then just push fit in and can be made loose enough to move through the small angle needed. If it needs a retainer you can drill through one of the bolt holes anfd fit a bit of wire, but usually the tie bars will be enough to keep it in place.
Keith

[Paul Townsend]

Hinges for fixed heel switches can be done by using a brass fishplate and soldering to the closure rail, the switch rail will then just push fit in and can be made loose enough to move through the small angle needed.

Not for Broad Gauge bridge rail though

[Tim V]

If you are talking 57XX panniers, they have a very long wheelbase. The Pecketts have a short wheelbase. You might consider a "Smokey Joe" type loco, can be converted into an industrial shunter.

Is someone doing a RTR 16XX type pannier?

[Noel]

Or you could use a Dapol Pug with Ultrascale conversion, or a High Level chassis. Or then again there are 03 [r-t-r] and 04 [r-t-r and Dapol kit] diesel shunters. Some of the 04s came with tramway skirts, though it is advisable to check your prototype as there were 4 different varieties. If you incline that way, there are a number of etched brass kits of industrial locos, both steam and diesel.

Noel

[Guy Rixon]

The later GWR designed a short-wheelbase PT for dock work, with outside cylinders: 1500 class, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_1500_Class. BR built them in 1949. I don't know if kits or conversions for these are available. Not something I'd choose as a first loco to build in P4!

[Andy W]

There's something fascinating about rails set in roadways. I remember as a kid growing up in Worcester there was a line from Shrub hill that cut across the road and headed towards the old vinegar works. I was always fascinated by it. I think it had a signal to stop the traffic - not the trains. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago now!

[Martin Wynne]

I remember as a kid growing up in Worcester there was a line from Shrub hill that cut across the road and headed towards the old vinegar works. I was always fascinated by it. I think it had a signal to stop the traffic - not the trains. I might be wrong, it was a long time ago now!

Yes, a GWR lower quadrant signal was used to control road traffic: http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegar.htm

You can still follow some of the inset tracks on Google Streetview: http://goo.gl/maps/EtQtT

(Unfortunately Google have updated that since some of the tracks have been removed -- there was far more to see on Streetview a couple of years ago.)

Martin.

[jayell]

reading this subject prompted me to take a couple of photos of the chunk of tram rail that lurks in our garden shed. I found it years ago in a garden in Bournemouth, so is almost certainly a bit of the track that used to exist in that town. My original intention was to mount it on a bit of tree trunk using spikes picked up in North Wales when visiting narrow gauge railways but I soon realised that solution give me an anvil too heavy to carry around, it did get used as an anvil though in my model engineeering days but not mounted on anything.

so some photos attached, I should have given a lighter background to photo 3 but it was starting to rain (yet again) so I took the pic and hurried indoors. Even so it may be good enough to get dimensions using the rule propped up alongside.

tramrail01.jpg

tramrail02.jpg

tramrail03.jpg

Hope these pics may be of help to someone.

John

[Noel]

Guy, the 15XX were built for use in yards with sharp curves, but not primarily for dock work. They were the heaviest of all the GWR pannier designs, and like the 94XX had red route availability, which restricted where they could operate. Apart from the two at Newport Pill they seem always to have been allocated to main line sheds, and Pill had a lot of the lighter steam brake only 67XX series of the 57XX class which would have been available for work within the docks. I don't know, but imagine they were used in the sorting yards which fed the dock system. That there were only 10 of them may be because of diesel shunters, but the only batch was built in 1949 and Swindon continued to build 94XX and 16XX for some years afterwards, suggesting that there were problems finding work for the 15XX.

There were the six 1101 series Avonsides at Danygraig, which were built for dock work, and had red RA, plus assorted smaller 0-4-0 tanks inherited from the Swansea Harbour Trust or Powlesland and Mason, also for use in Swansea docks.

Noel

[Andy W]

"Yes, a GWR lower quadrant signal was used to control road traffic" thanks Martin, maybe my memory isn't as bad I thought! Happy memories of Halls; Castles; Staniers and (my favourites) panniers at Shrub Hill. Oh how we got bored with Granges - never realising how lucky we were.

[Jol Wilkinson]

"Yes, a GWR lower quadrant signal was used to control road traffic" thanks Martin, maybe my memory isn't as bad I thought! Happy memories of Halls; Castles; Staniers and (my favourites) panniers at Shrub Hill. Oh how we got bored with Granges - never realising how lucky we were.

Andy,

I get bored with anything GWR, so you got off light.

That should liven things up, so I'll get my coat.

Jol

[Tim V]

Someone has commented that the points at Bristol in the picture were on parts that "could" have been shunted by pannier tanks, but also could have been shunted by capstan. The PBA locos were down at Avonmouth. So tis up to you....

[steamraiser]

Here with a couple more pictures of point work remaining in Bristol docks:

Bristol 2008 009.jpg

Bristol docks08 007.jpg

Note the use of an inner rail throughout.

Gordon A
Bristol

[Bulwell Hall]

Much of the remaining track work on the quays in Bristol Docks comprises conventional bullhead track with continuous checkrail - as shown in Gordon's photo. It would have been laid in the usual manner and a concrete pad cast insitu to provide the surface for road vehicles - much of the Weymouth Harbour Tramway was laid in the same way but has subsequently been overlaid with tarmac. Quite what the solution was when routine maintenance was required I am not sure but some of the track still in use at Bristol Docks requires much attention - I was watching 'Henbury' running at the Gala last weekend, along with the Par Harbour twins, and there are some significant dropped joints which require serious attention.

GWR 57xx 'Pannier' tanks - and their '2021' class predecessors - certainly worked on the Bristol Harbour Railway from Temple Meads right through to Canons Marsh but it is unlikely that they went onto the quays - curvature as well as weight would have limited them. It is far more likely that capstans - or muscle power using pinch bars or horses - was used to move wagons around. In similar locations elsewhere tractors were used - e.g Teignmouth. Further information on this point would be welcome.

[glynrb]

Many thanks to all for these responses - I thought that the points outside M Shed looked very tight - I measured one set at less than 3m long, so capstan power would make sense (although I'm not going to try to model that!).

It looks like I need to rethink motive power (tracks already being laid) - So two Panniers need to find some other work to do - maybe the line at the south of Spike Island could be extended and connected to the Severn Beach line at one and and Bristol Temple Meads at the other? Then suburban passenger trains could run behind the docks area over the bridge behind M Shed.

Hmm, re-reading that, it looks a bit like desperation. I think I'll just go into a corner and cry for a bit...

Glyn