GWR "B" Sets

User avatar
doggeface
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:40 pm

GWR "B" Sets

Postby doggeface » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:30 am

I have decided to trial the Dingham couplings. The first rolling stock being a B set as I have already used single carriages for buffered propulsion tests. As the Dingham requires a minimum 6mm length buffer unit (clear of the beam at the hook position) and my Airfix/Hornby examples carry only the 4mm units mounted on the curved beam which reduces the clearance by another 1 mm , I really do need to fit extended units at the ends of the set (the stumpy units are fine for using in the permenantly connected centre of a 2 car set). I should explain that I wish to use the buffers for propulsion as necessary as some of these units were used on Auto Trains.
The normal sources available to me either do not provide size or photos of their wares. It struck me that a GW Auto carriage would provide such extended buffer units and I do have one scrap. In any case, am I correct in assuming that this model is well out of scale?
Any advice on procurement is very welcome before I start into the hacking and slashing!


Best Regards

Peter

craig_whilding
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby craig_whilding » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:11 pm

If you mean the Airfix Autocoach then its a pretty scale model but it does have bits of detail from two diagrams (28/30 iirc) and needs flush glazing. There have been loads of articles on upgrading it though.

User avatar
doggeface
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:40 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby doggeface » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:48 pm

My need is to modify the draw hook and buffers of the drawn end of a B Set. The two sets that I have are identical but derived from Airfix in one case and Hornby in the other. The ref to the scrap Auto Coach was to recover the buffer stocks in order to fit to the B Set. Sadly my wreck has only 2 intact. I am hoping that someone will know a scource of such buffer assemblies

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1143
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Noel » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:38 pm

After 1930 there were only ever two composite auto trailers built for use on the GWR/WR. They were built in 1936 to diagram A32, and were derived from BC diagram E147, most of which indeed ran as B sets. However, they are not related to the Airfix/Hornby model, which is E140. Relative to E140, E147/A32 is shorter and narrower, with flat ends [not bowed] and door handles which are not recessed. Like all the later BT/T conversions, A32 has normal buffers, the long ones only being required for steam railmotors and 'conventional' saloon autocoaches where the centre panel of the end is well beyond the location of the base of the buffers.

What you do with your trainset is up to you, but you seem from your postings to be trying to produce a model of something which never existed?

Noel
Regards
Noel

wally

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby wally » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:30 pm

I must admit I had my doubts about the original posting, but did not have the relevant information to hand.

We must not forget it was not unknown for B sets to deput for auto trains with the locos running round as the occasion required.

This was probably the origin of a misunderstanding.

Wally

User avatar
Dave K
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Dave K » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:05 am

As Noel states the Airfix/Hornby model of a 'B' set is a diagram E140 as it has 7ft bogies, whereas the E147 bodies are identical bodies except they had 9ft bogies.

Peter concerning the buffers beams for both the E140 & E147 the models are completely wrong. Although the ends of the bodies were bowed the buffer beams are straight, there is a photo of the end of an E140 in Russell's GW Coaches Pt.2 (fig 327 pg. 192). There was an article published in Model Railway Constructor September 1980 which gives detail of how to modify the buffer beams (and other modification) and for replacement buffers I have used MJT buffers 2330S, currently there are no replacement buffers for the small middle buffers.

I have a copy of said MRC article so if you would like a copy I could scan it for you, you might also like to at Tim Venton's Clutton web site as he has a couple of pages on 'B' sets - http://www.tventon.freeserve.co.uk/bset.htm

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1143
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:59 pm

Sorry, Dave, but E140 was 61ft 2ins x 9ft 3ins, bow ended with recessed door handles. E147 was 57ft 0ins x 9ft 0ins, flat ended with unrecessed door handles. You are correct about the bogies, and the error in the buffer beams of the model [there are others you have not referred to, but these are not relevant to this discussion, I agree], but the bodies were definitely not the same. I think you are confusing E147 with E145, which was the same as E140, apart from the bogies...

Sources: Russell, GW Coaches Appendix Vol 1 and Harris, GW Coaches 1890-1954.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
doggeface
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:40 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby doggeface » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:40 pm

to Noel -- My need to modify the end of a "B" set in order that it may be pushed arises from the use sometimes made of one such carriage between the Auto Carriage and the locomotive. It is also desirable for shunting.
Like many before me I find that the interaction of rtr couplings with the bogies to be insupportable -- hence the trial of Dingham couplers.
You are quite right that I am attempting to model something which never existed but only in so far as the era is concerned. I am modelling Lydney to Coleford as a passenger service to the end of steam!

to Wally thank you for your comprehension!

To Dave, thank you for the offer which I would love to accept! I live on apeterabraham@aol.com.

I will visit Tim's site tout de suite.

One day I will discover a source of Non brake carriages to make up the intermediate trains of 3,4 & 5 carriages which used to shuttle between TM & Avonmouth/Filton when workers went by train!

Living in Europe makes getting these invaluable facts just that much harder and I find that memories of 65+ years ago are not so clever!

Best Regards

Peter
Montarlot
France

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2265
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Tim V » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:10 pm

The inner end buffers are the right length.

The outer end buffers need replacing with standard GW buffers - such as produced by ABS, Comet, or Frogmore. The buffer beam needs replacing with a straight one, strictly both ends of the coach need doing, but you'd be hard pressed to see on the inner end.

Further details of E140/E145 construction are on my web site.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1143
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:02 pm

Doggeface, any non-auto fitted coach between an autocoach and an auto fitted loco would prevent the train being propelled [at least officially]. I am not going to say it never happened, but it would have been a major disciplinary case if caught as without the through bell connection and through regulator control the driver would not be in proper control of his train.

The rules prohibited any train being propelled, subject to a small number of exceptions, one of which is when working a train capable of being controlled from either end [i.e. an auto train]. An intermediate coach without through regulator gear would breach this rule [rule 149 in the BR book - I don't have a GW one]. It would also breach the rule about the guard giving signals by electric bell [which a B set coach would not have the wiring for] [in rule 1], and also the requirement for through regulator control for all vehicles being propelled [in rule 19], both in the Autocar instructions in the 1937 GW General Appendix. Note no such rule applies to vehicles being pulled by an autotrain, whether the autocoach or the loco is leading.

On a different aspect, the Severn and Wye services post WWII were always third class only. According to John Lewis' GW Auto Trailers part 2 pp318/9, from the late 1930s onwards these services were usually worked by the two trailers of A33, plus W1668W and W1671W from A34, the usual train being one of each. Both A33 and A34 were compartment brake thirds. Photos do show saloon autocoaches in use on occasion, possibly as replacements when one of the usual vehicles was absent.

It was apparently not unknown for a driver who trusted his fireman not to bother to couple up the regulator gear on autocoaches, leaving the fireman to operate the regulator, but this was definitely unofficial as indicated above. Propelling with a non-auto fitted coach, which would have been obvious to higher authority, for example, the stationmasters on the route, would seem to be a risk no crew would have wanted to take. However, if you have evidence to prove me wrong I would be pleased to see it.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
chrisf
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:59 am

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby chrisf » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:22 am

I wonder if Doggeface has in the back of his mind the conversions carried out in the early 1950s. Some brake thirds of diagram D117 were equipped with driving compartments, making them look very similar to the A33s mentioned by Noel. In addition some full thirds of diagrams C66 and C75 were fitted with rodding so that they could be placed between the loco and driving trailer. The conversions were used mainly in South Wales but following the arrival of dmus in 1958 some were scrapped and the rest dispersed.

Chris

Armchair Modeller
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:34 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:58 am


User avatar
doggeface
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:40 pm

Re: GWR "B" Sets

Postby doggeface » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:18 pm

Chris -- you have it!

I came across these both at Cinderford and Tiverton in the early 50's.

It was the same later stock which made up the longer trains for normal suburban use (when they were not using the ancient stuff left in sidings for years and resurrected for the odd local football trains to Ashton Gate or Stapleton Road)


Peter


Return to “Coaches and NPCS”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests