JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - General Merchandise Vans

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Noel
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:06 pm

jjnewitt wrote:I though that the point of RCH specifications was to lay down what the standard should be from that point forward? If so why they be able to pick and choose the type of underframe? I can certainly understand it taking a long time to get everyone using the new design as the various works would need to have recieved copies of it. Presumably the works would use the drawings it had if someone ordered more of something and if they hadn't been updated then the wagons would get the old type underframe?


I don't know, Justin, but a number of factors may be involved:

Issuing the paperwork for new designs was probably quite easy, but manufacturers must always have been given some leeway over how fast they introduced them, to allow for making or obtaining new tooling, etc. There is apparently some evidence from earlier changes that alterations were not always introduced all at once even by the same manufacturer, with interim versions existing. In wartime, with its emphasis on maintaining production at virtually any cost, this process is likely to have been extended. [In the early years of the war this is very evident with aircraft, with designs known to be obsolete continuing in production on the grounds that obsolete aircraft were better than none at all.]

Steel wagon underframes were precision items, built on jigs. Obtaining or making new jigs would be time consuming, and not necessarily straightforward, in view of other wartime demands, especially early in the war. Many companies involved in engineering took on war work, reducing the number of staff available for their normal work.

Some male staff would have been replaced by women; training them would have taken time, so making other alterations at the same time might have been avoided where possible. New trained staff to expand production would have been scarce or non-existent. Any change from riveting to welding would have required less staff eventually, but increased the training time required.
Regards
Noel

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jon price
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby jon price » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Looks like the issue was discussed in letters to MRJ, but In don't know when. Here are a couple of examples. One is not in a sealed boiler so in that case at least gas that can't get out isn't the issue
http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2737
http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/ ... g-pva.html
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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Will L
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby Will L » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:50 pm

PeteT wrote:I think there are 2 possible glue issues - one is expansion, but I think the PVA/cyno issue is a gas which is produced over time. If the tank was sealed then this would build up and force its way out, but if a hole is left in the bottom it shouldnt cause an issue. I am no chemist though, so I will probably stand corrected!


PVA on lead does, in time, produce a chemical reaction , the product of which is significantly larger that it components. Don't do it.

Not sure I fancy cyanoacrylates either, I doubt you will get enough gas given off to bother the tank, however I do wonder if
1. you'll get enough in to coat all the bits you want to stick, over doing it won't help either see 3 below.
2. how you can ensure the load is evenly distributed after you imtoduce the glue and before it sets
or alternatively
3. if it will take a long time to go off. These glues go off in the presence of water (in this country, the dampness from air is usually, but not always, sufficient) and the absence of air. What ever else happens I doubt the condition's inside the tank will be optimal, I presume set will occur with time, but how soon is an interesting question. Could be significantly delayed.

If anybody does try Cyno for this job, I for one, would be interested to know how they get on.

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jjnewitt
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby jjnewitt » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:34 pm

Modelling time is a bit limited at the moment with an 11 month old daughter around the house but there has been sufficent time recently for a brief swim into the murky waters where engineering wagons reside...

Workbench Grampus.JPG

The usual Parkside body and my etched bits and castings combination with Lanarkshire Models buffers.

Justin
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Andrew Ullyott
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:48 pm

Very nice Justin
did you get my message?
Andrew

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iak
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby iak » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:27 am

Whooosh :thumb
Seconded most vigorously...
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PeteT
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby PeteT » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:59 pm

Looking lovely Justin!

One thing that may be of interest to others (though a tad modern for me!) is the Kernow Turbots that I've only just seen reference to.

Being built on bogie bolster E underframes there is presumably a fair few details ready to go upon their release.

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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby ginger61 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:21 pm

Brilliant piece of modelling re the Grampus Wagon, :thumb Can you tell us lesser mortals what the under pinnings you use to produce such a model? I'm in the market for such an under frame!!!
Thanks in advance,
Nick.

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jjnewitt
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mont Tank Wagon

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:10 am

ginger61 wrote:Brilliant piece of modelling re the Grampus Wagon, :thumb Can you tell us lesser mortals what the under pinnings you use to produce such a model? I'm in the market for such an under frame!!!


Thanks Nick. The underframe is my own etch and those that are currently available can be found via Rumney Models. The Grampus will be along very soon.

PeteT wrote:One thing that may be of interest to others (though a tad modern for me!) is the Kernow Turbots that I've only just seen reference to.
Being built on bogie bolster E underframes there is presumably a fair few details ready to go upon their release.


Cheers Pete. The Bogie Bolster E detailing etch should be useful for the Kernow Turbots depending on how they've done the underframe. Jim Smith-Wright had a similar idea with the Cambrian kit which turned out very well and is definately a route worth looking at for a finscale Turbot.

Justin

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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mount Tanks

Postby jjnewitt » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:22 am

With a young daughter, Rumney Models to look after and commission work to be done there hasn't been much time for modelling for myself. A couple of things that I have been playing with though are bodies for a couple of anchor mounted tank wagons. I've never been convinced by the Bachmann body as a 14T class A or 20T class B (both 7'3" diameter tanks), always thinking that it looked a bit small, which it is. With some Air Ministry and other tank wagons in the pipeline, all with proper sized tanks, I didn't think that Bachmann body would sit well with them and so have been putting together a 14T class B (6'7" diameter tank) and 20T class B (7'3" diameter tank) wagon.

It's interesting to get a proper visual comparison between my two and the Bachmann model, which is pretty good for a 14T class B but doesn't really convince for most of the liveries it's been released in so far.

Anchor Mount Tank Comparison (1).JPG

Anchor Mount Tank Comparison (2).JPG

Justin
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mount Tanks

Postby jjnewitt » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:50 pm

This has all been very quiet recently. I thought it was time for a bit of an update on some of the things I’ve been up to for myself.

Whilst doing the test builds for the Rumney Models Air Ministry tank wagons I took the opportunity finished off a few of my other models. Some of these have been hanging around for too long.

14T National Benzole Class B Anchor Mount

National Benzole Anchor Mount (3).JPG

Featured in my last post on here, it is now ready for painting and some custom transfers featuring that lovely mercury head logo.

14T Benzene Class A Anchor Mount

Benzene Anchor Mount (1).JPG

Again, this featured in my last post. It has gained heating coils as the prototypes did at some point between National Benzole being taken over by SMBP and the end of steam.

Printed Anchor Mount Bodies

Printed Anchor Mount Bodies.JPG

The etched anchor mounts look good but it’s hard work to get a good result around the saddles. A recent commission project meant I had to do some printed samples of a tank wagon. I was quite impressed by how well certain elements came out, especially the fit of the things attached to the tank so I had a go at doing some printed anchor mount bodies. The bigger one is a 20T class B and the smaller a tar tank. There are etched underframes to go with these which await their turn on the workbench.

14T Benzene Class A 1930s Cradle Mount

Benzene Cradle (3).JPG

This follows naturally on from the Air Ministry wagon kits that I’ve been working on. By the 1930s cradle mounted tanks were becoming rare though National Benzole had a thing for them, and Gloucester were still building them for that company in 1937. This is an ex National Benzole tank which will be painted in Benzene livery to go with the anchor mount.

14T ESSO Class A Air Ministry

ESSO Air Min (3A).JPG

This was started in the days before I had a 3D printer with more etchings and some cast crossbeams. It represents one of the last batch of Air Ministry tanks built by Chas Roberts which featured the 1939 RCH spec underframe.

In addition to the tank wagons I've been working on some vans and minerals

Gunpowder Vans

A long time ago I started an etched kit for an LMS/LNER/BR Gunpowder Van. This hit the wall when Rapido announced their RTR model. When I got my printer I was looking for a van body to have a go at printing. As the artwork was done I re-imagined the etched kit as a mostly 3D printed one but still with an etched subframe and roof to get that lovely thin sheet metal look.

LMS Unfitted

Gunpowder Van - LMS Unfitted.jpg

Not all gunpowder vans got retrofitted in the late fifties. This is a model of one that escaped the fitting of a vacuum cylinder. Chains have been added from twisted wire.

BR Retrofitted

Gunpowder Van - BR Retrofitted.jpg

This is a model of one that did get a vacuum cylinder as part of the modernisation program. It features the correct low slung vacuum cylinder that was a feature of these conversions.

BR New Build Fitted

Gunpowder Van - Fitted.jpg

Two lots of Morton braked vans were built new with vacuum brakes by Swindon in 1956. These had the vac cylinders in a more conventional position through with a strange heavy duty safety arrangement.

LMS D2134 16T Mineral

LMS D2134 Mineral.jpg

I seem to be doing my best to avoid building ‘standard’ welded minerals. The LMS built two batches of 16T minerals to 2134 diagram and one of these featured riveted end and side doors. The basis for the body is the Parkside kit and the end door is a spare from the Parkside riveted mineral. Rivets have been added by drilling holes and filling them with 0.3mm plastic wire. Not quick but easy enough and the inside gets done at the same time. The underframe was an experimental part printed/part etched affair.

BR 1/208 Standard Van

BR Standard Van.jpg

Another experimental part printed/part etched underframe affair with all those lovely solebar brackets reproduced. This worked better than the mineral.

BR Standard Van - Weathered.JPG

Finally, just to show that some stuff actually gets finished, the same van painted and weathered. The weathering was great fun. I’m looking forward to doing some more.

Justin
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Lord Colnago
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mount Tanks

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:01 pm

Lovely stuff Justin. I'll be in touch!

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barrowroad
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby barrowroad » Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:01 pm

Lovely work Justin, they must get a test run:-)

Robin

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Mike Garwood
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby Mike Garwood » Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:38 pm

barrowroad wrote:Lovely work Justin, they must get a test run:-)

Robin


Definitely, superb stuff!

Mike

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iak
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby iak » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:30 am

Simply gorgeous...
:thumb :thumb :thumb
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jjnewitt
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Izal Palvan

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:11 pm

A couple more wagons recently off the workbench and into the painting queue.

BR 1/221 Izal Palvan

A few years ago now I got involved in a commission to produce an underframe and ends for an Izal Palvan. The prototypes were built in 1960 at Derby during a time when BR was building specialist Palvans for a number of private businesses. They were non-standard with a wheelbase of 11', a length over headstocks of 18'9" and curouisly featured end stanchions which were set away from the headstock with packing in between. They used the same 'Derby' clasp brake arrangement as the Vanwides and some Shocopens and Pipes built at Derby. The commission was originally just for an underframe, end stanchions/ironwork and the door runner covers as it was felt that etched brass wasn't the right material for doing the doors and the distinctive ends with their tapered framing and set back sheeting. With the pruchase of a 3D printer the project was extended to fill in the missing peices and we've arrived at a full kit with resin printed inner ends, sides and roof. At the end of it all I had a spare etch so I thought I'd go about building one for myself. I think it turned out ok and does a good job capturing the blocky look of the prototype. Next job is trying to find a suitable green as the bodies were initially painted in Izals house colours rather than freight stock red.

Izal Palvan (1).JPG

Izal Palvan (2).JPG

LMS d.1667

This is another experimental underframe combined with a detailed Cambrian body. These things must have been getting very thin on the ground in revenue service by my mid-sixties period but some found their way into departmental use. This will make a nice companion to my Grampus in a short engineer's rake.

LMS 1667.JPG

Cheers,
Justin
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iak
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby iak » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:48 pm

Top stuff Justin,
Any of this going on general sale :?:
It would be rude not to ask... :thumb
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:49 am

Hi Iain,

Given the instructions exist and everything else is done the Izal Palvan should be appearing sometime early next year. CCT have just done transfers for it so there's no real reason not to. Same goes for the Gunpowder van kit and there's an underframe for the Bachmann grain hopper aorund here somewhere that is at the same stage. They won't all come at once though. There's also a handful of commissions which will come to fruition at some point. After that who knows? Sales of new stuff since the Covid interlude have been really poor and they aren't covering the cost and time of releasing them as kits. Currently it woud be more profitable for me not realease anything new unless it's commissioned.

Cheers,
Justin

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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Izal Palvan

Postby garethevans1986 » Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:51 am

Very nice Justin.
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iak
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Tank Wagons, Vans and a Mineral

Postby iak » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:18 pm

jjnewitt wrote:Hi Iain,

Given the instructions exist and everything else is done the Izal Palvan should be appearing sometime early next year. CCT have just done transfers for it so there's no real reason not to. Same goes for the Gunpowder van kit and there's an underframe for the Bachmann grain hopper aorund here somewhere that is at the same stage. They won't all come at once though. There's also a handful of commissions which will come to fruition at some point. After that who knows? Sales of new stuff since the Covid interlude have been really poor and they aren't covering the cost and time of releasing them as kits. Currently it woud be more profitable for me not realease anything new unless it's commissioned.

Cheers,
Justin


All the above will certainly be of interest to myself. Mind, if people are not buying things, I totally understand ones situation.
I am planning on another order frae you in the New Year. The COVID saga knocked my mojo akimbo badly, I need to get going again.

Sláinte
Iain
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jjnewitt
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Izal Palvan

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:41 pm

iak wrote:All the above will certainly be of interest to myself. Mind, if people are not buying things, I totally understand ones situation.
I am planning on another order frae you in the New Year. The COVID saga knocked my mojo akimbo badly, I need to get going again.

Sláinte
Iain


I'm sorry to hear that Iain. I hope you find it again soon. Covid has a lot to answer for. My workbench saved my sanity during the first lockdown. Still does I suppose.

Cheers,
Justin

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Paul Willis
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Izal Palvan

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:49 am

Martin Kelly wrote:Neville, I've been meaning to respond to you previous post for a while...

Like many members here, I'm a huge fan of Justin's work. In fact, it was discovering the quality of his output that was a big factor in my return to finescale modelling and girding my loins to finally master the dark art of soldering PE kits. So, I'm with you; it would be a terrible shame if Justin couldn't find a way for his business to remain viable. And I like your idea about pooling our ideas to come up with some viable commission ideas. In other areas of life where I have an interest, I've seen such projects funded using crowdfunding systems like KickStarter as a way to reduce the financial risk for all parties.

I also agree that a separate thread for this that does not contaminate Justin's own workbench postings would be a good idea. If any of the Forum admins are reading, perhaps they could suggest an appropriate home for such a thread?


Hi Neville, Martin and Gareth,

A Forum Admin here :-) And thanks for the "report" as well to flag this question.

Knowing roughly the overall Forum structure, a logical place to me in is the area "Where to Find". Because that is where you would look to see what might be available, and what could be made available.

I'll create an introductory posting, and then move these posts across.

Best wishes,
Paul
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Izal Palvan

Postby Martin Kelly » Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:31 pm

Thank you Paul!

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jjnewitt
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - General Merchandise Vans

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:58 pm

I don't have enough general merchandise wagons. I've got more Shocvans than general merchandise ones which is something that clearly needs to change. I don't feel that I need to do hundreds but maybe 25 would be a nice amount and also manageable with how I build them. Whilst casually flicking through various volumes mulling over what I would types would go on the van "wishlist" I ended up pondering the following question:

If I have a random selection of 25 general merchandise vans in 1964 what should that be made up of?

A few years ago now I did a fleet survey on 16T minerals to have a look at what types were built and in what quantities. In part this was to try and show that the ubiquitous unfitted Morton 2 shoe 108 wasn't quite as common as it might have appeared, especially in the 50s and early 60s. What was needed was a similar assesment of the general merchandise van fleet so I've been delving into my wagon books...

12T General Merchandise Van Fleet Survey

As almost all 9' wheelbase vans had gone by my 1964 modelling period I haven't worried too much them and concentrated on 10' wheelbase types. I'm not going to claim that the tables give a definative historical record of the van fleet, I can only go by what I've found, nor am I going to claim there aren't errors! It's meant only as a guide to what there was and in what sort of quantities to answer the above question. Of course random variation could mean that you end up with almost anthing but if you have a rake of 20 vans and half of them are SR plywood ones then you might want to have a think about a bit more variety unless there's a specific reason for them to be there.

The results threw up a few interesting things. I hadn't realised that BR built so many compared with the big four (no idea why!), the LMS van is still very badly served by the RTR boys and kit manufacturers (espcially as the Dapol one is very clunky and the Parkside one isn't right at all) and I'm going to need some more Ratio LMS van kits, there were lots of those!

I haven't just been pondering, I've been building as well. A couple of BR standard vans using the excellent Parkside PC.07A and PC.08A body kits. Those two kits are kind of my quality benchmarks. Both done using mixed media underframes which might make it out into the real world at some point though I'm struggling to find time to write the instructions at the moment.

BR 1/213 plywood van. Lot 3023 built at Ashford in 1957. Morton underframe, 1' 8 1/2" BR 2 rib buffers with treadplate.

BR Std Ply Van (1).JPG

BR 1/208 planked with plywood door van. Lot 3086 built at Wolverton in 1958. BR clasp brake underframe, 1' 8 1/2" self contained buffers.

BR Std Ply Door Van (2).JPG

Justin
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Re: JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - General Merchandise Vans

Postby garethevans1986 » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:15 pm

Very nice as usual Justin.

Would be interesting to know what Iain (IAK) van fleet numbers are.
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