JJNewitt's Wonderful World of Wagons - Anchor Mount Tanks

[iak]

MMmmmmmmmmm
The castings look fabbo Justin

[Mike Garwood]

Justin

New site looks good, looks like a lot of works' gone into that. Looking forward to seeing the castings, no matter the cost. Anything with class is always worth the wait. And you have certainly lifted wagons to another level with your range.

Good luck with the new site.

Mike

[jjnewitt]

The wagon axlebox and springs saga is finally drawing to a conclusion. The production brass castings have been returned to me and I've just spent the best part of two days tidiying them up ready to be sent off to make the whitemetal moulds. Very nice they look to!

All being well I should have these available at Scalefourm and will look forward to adding some proper BR era axlebox and springs to my own underframes!

If anyone wants a sneak peak at the initial range then have a look here. I've yet to finalise prices but they are likely to be around the £2.50 mark for a wagon's worth in whitemetal.

Justin

[iak]

Whooosh
They do look splendid Justin.

[Russ Elliott]

Justin - how is the fold-over thingie attached to the buffer tail?

buffer-springing-detail.jpg (4.97 KiB) Viewed 7197 times

[jjnewitt]

Justin - how is the fold-over thingie attached to the buffer tail?

Hi Russ,

It's soldered in place. The final fold at the top is made after it's been fitted to give you something to hold whilst wielding the iron.

Justin

[Brinkly]

Hi Justin,

Will you have these ready for Scaleforum?

Kind regards,

Nick.

[jjnewitt]

Will you have these ready for Scaleforum?

Hi Nick, Yes I'll have some of these at Scaleforum. Full details of the new releases will be announced elsewhere on the forum in due course.

Justin

[Brinkly]

Hi Justine,

Thank you. I look forward to, hopefully, buying a couple.

Kind regards,

Nick

[jjnewitt]

The arrival of a baby daughter recently has meant that there hasn’t been as much time as usual for modelling time. However in between the nappy changes and feeds a few things have passed by my workbench.

First up is a 14T anchor mount tanks wagon. I’d been wanting to try and do a completely open underframe for use with tank wagons for a little now but wasn’t sure how robust it would be. The arrival of the Bachmann model spurred me into thinking further about it and this is the result:

The tank won’t stay like that. The Bachmann model is a 14T tank (technically I think it’s a 14T class A tank), the 20T class B tanks were longer and of slightly greater diameter which although not huge has a knock on effect on the profile of the saddles. The underframes also had heavier axleguards, springs and axleboxes which you would expect with the increase in load. I want to try and finish it as a National Benzole class B tank as seen on Paul Bartlett’s wonderful website. If getting transfers done proves to be problematic I’ll think again.

My desire to see a decent sized range of BR steam era wagon axlebox and spring castings has led to some more virtual modelling. One of the really nice things about doing these drawings is knowing that you’re going to end up with something that, as far as I know, hasn’t been really available before such as these 10” x 5” RCH 2 part and BR 2 part square axleboxes:

And these LMS platefront and LNER welded axleboxes:

Also a trip to Peak Rail on a very fine October day last year gave me chance to measure up some BR brake van springs. I’ll have to try and get round to building a couple of my Bradwell underframes now.

Of course having all these spring and axlebox castings is no good if use isn’t made of them… So one of the things I am doing at the moment is getting some of the wagons that I’ve been building over the past few years finished and ready for painting. Some of these have been seen before but not so complete.

LMS D.2050 5 plank open

BR 1/056 Shocopen

BR 1/109 16T mineral

In all cases the wagons are built from Parkside bodies and Rumney Models underframes with Rumney Models axlebox & springs castings, vacuum cylinders and Lanarkshire Models buffers. Wheels are Exactoscale.

Justin

[iak]

Mmmmmmmmm more axlebox tastings, very nice.
The finished wagons look splendid mind, that shocopen especially.

[Lord Colnago]

Yes indeed. They are all rather nice. I lean towards the rugged simplicity of the 1/109 myself. Perhaps rugged and simole are qualities I can relate to. .

[Lord Colnago]

Simole???? It would have been so simple to have got that right!

[Noel]

The Bachmann model is a 14T tank (technically I think it’s a 14T class A tank), the 20T class B tanks were longer and of slightly greater diameter which although not huge has a knock on effect on the profile of the saddles.

The body illustrated is intended to be a Class B [it has the valve wheel for bottom discharge], but its length does suggest that it's a 14T Class B, not the 20T Class B it is purporting to be. Bachmann do have a 14T Class A, the one in Benzole livery. What I don't know is whether their diameters are different [the class A should be slightly larger in diameter for the same load, if it's the same length as the Class B, as its contents would be less dense].

Esso and Shell-BP presumably had enough 14T, having acquired and converted a lot of Air Ministry Class A tanks after WW2 and, so far as I know, only ordered 20T anchor mounts, but Regent, Brotherton, and Fina, and possibly others, had 14T Class B. BR also had a few creosote tanks of this type. The National Benzole livery version shown on the tanks on Paul Bartlett's website was introduced in 1959, so these wagons would have originally carried an earlier version if they were new to NB.

I look forward to seeing more of the chassis; being a standard RCH type it will presumably work for the 14T tank, both cradle and saddle mount, as well? I prefer to work in plastic if possible, and had started a combination of a Bachmann 14T Class B body and a Cambrian chassis, but I think I will have to start soldering... One problem with a prototypically open chassis for tanks, though, is where do you add extra weight if you feel the need? Perhaps between the central longitudinals?

[dal-t]

One problem with a prototypically open chassis for tanks, though, is where do you add extra weight if you feel the need? Perhaps between the central longitudinals?

Won't the oil you're going to put in the tank (on the basis of 'getting it all right') be heavy enough? I'm currently building a trio of Airfix/Dapol tanks for another BB (one in OO straight OOB; one in EM with detail enhancement; one in P4 as close as I can get it to the prototype, thanks to the Masokits u/f). All have weight in the tank and on the basis of the OO and EM examples (the P4 isn't quite ready to roll yet) are plenty heavy enough and nowhere near top-heavy.

[Lord Colnago]

I appear to have been credited with a quote that I didn't make!

Having said that, I would also be looking to put the weight in the tank somehow. I haven't had a good look at the tanks as yet but it might be possible to prise one end off to get the weight inside. Failing that, I may cut a hole in the underside, between the anchor mounts, where it won't be seen and pop some lead in. Perhaps Justin could enlighten us a little as he has a tank to hand?

John.

[Noel]

I don't have one of the anchor mount tanks at present, but I do have a couple of Bachmann's 14T cradle mounted tanks, and there is no way I can see of getting into the tank to add weight, without major, and destructive, surgery. I'm not even sure that they are actually hollow.

[jjnewitt]

The body illustrated is intended to be a Class B [it has the valve wheel for bottom discharge], but its length does suggest that it's a 14T Class B, not the 20T Class B it is purporting to be. Bachmann do have a 14T Class A, the one in Benzole livery. What I don't know is whether their diameters are different [the class A should be slightly larger in diameter for the same load, if it's the same length as the Class B, as its contents would be less dense].

I'd be very suprised if the tank diameters on the Bachmann class A and class B wagons are different. I imagine it's the same basic moulding. If they were going to do different diameters they could have done a proper 20T class B tank which the model definately isn't. As you say it's too short and the diameter isn't big enough. My model does have a discharge wheel so it is supposed to be a class B tank but having looked at various photographs the tank itself does look a little big for a 14T class B example (though that's a bit of a generalisation as the actual size of the tank would presumably depend on the type of class B traffic it was intended for??) which is why I said I suspect that Bachmann have done a 14T class A tank. I can't find any dimensions to corroborate that theory though. I imagine they followed whichever example they found to measure up or got hold of the drawings for.

The National Benzole livery version shown on the tanks on Paul Bartlett's website was introduced in 1959, so these wagons would have originally carried an earlier version if they were new to NB.

As far as I know they were new to NB but I haven't been able to find a picture of the livery they wore when new. The post '59 livery is suitable for my time frame though so if it's possible to do some transfers that will be fine for me.

I look forward to seeing more of the chassis; being a standard RCH type it will presumably work for the 14T tank, both cradle and saddle mount, as well? I prefer to work in plastic if possible, and had started a combination of a Bachmann 14T Class B body and a Cambrian chassis, but I think I will have to start soldering... One problem with a prototypically open chassis for tanks, though, is where do you add extra weight if you feel the need? Perhaps between the central longitudinals?

The chassis I've done has the later type (post 1939?) framing with straight channel section all the way down the centre of the wagon. Every anchor mount I've come across seemed to have this arrangement. The 1927 and Air Ministry 14T tank wagons all seemed to have the earlier type chassis with Y faming at the ends so tehcnically it wouldn't be correct for these earlier wagons. I have done the artwork for the earlier underframe which will be suitable for 14T cradle and saddle mounted tanks. I haven't got round to doing the ladders and detailing parts yet though.

Regarding getting weight into the tank I was planning on trying a trick I saw someone use of drilling a hole in the bottom and filling the tank with something suitable, such as sand annd then resealing it. My anchor mount tank isn't coming apart very easily to fix lead into. The centre of gravity might be a bit higher than ideal but it must have been a bit like that on the real thing. Alternatively you could just cut the end off at the mould line and then stick it back on again. Either way any weight is going to have to go in the tank...

Having just drilled a hole into the bottom of my Bachmann cradle mount tank I can confirm that it's isn't completely solid but there does seem to be a fair amount of material on the inside of the tank.

Justin

[dal-t]

Profuse apologies, m'Lord, no idea how that misquote occurred - I'm sure I just clicked the little wriggly worms above the text as usual. All the same, pleased to know your nobleness has thoughts along the same lines as this 'umble servant. Of course, there's no need for cutting/prising with the Airfix/Dapol product, since they expect you to stick the 'arves together in the first place, then add the ends (although I must confess I did come very close to doing all that before adding the lead or coins in one of my samples!).

[Noel]

the actual size of the tank would presumably depend on the type of class B traffic it was intended for??

Tourret quotes diameters of 5ft 7.5ins, 5ft 10.5ins, 6ft 2.875ins, 6ft 7.25ins and 7ft 2.125ins for loads of 10, 12 or 14T, covering Class A, class B and unclassed traffic. Given that unclassed traffic [FP above that of Class B] travelled in class B tanks, all of the above could have been seen in black livery. The main difference is that some would require heating coils for the traffic carried, some not.

The chassis I've done has the later type (post 1939?) framing with straight channel section all the way down the centre of the wagon. Every anchor mount I've come across seemed to have this arrangement. The 1927 and Air Ministry 14T tank wagons all seemed to have the earlier type chassis with Y faming at the ends so tehcnically it wouldn't be correct for these earlier wagons.

Geoff Kent gives a date of 1940 for the change in chassis design, but with a prolonged gradual change. The Air Ministry 14T tanks were built from 1939 to 1944, but more towards the end than earlier, as the demand for aviation spirit was at its highest in 1944-45. In rough terms, the first 1000 were built 1939 -1942, the next 1000 in 1942 and the final 1000 in 1942-1944, the actual total being 3170 [including 400 or 450 lubricating oil tanks]. The figures are from an article by Peter Fidczuk in Modellers' BackTrack Vol.3 Nos. 1 & 2. He also gives a 1993 drawing of Hurst Nelson 1940 built AM432, a saddle mounted Class A tank, converted to Class B for SMBP, which shows the later type of chassis. Conversely he also gives a 1993 drawing of Charles Roberts 1942 built AM1144, an anchor mount lubricating oil tank, converted by SMBP to a bitumen tank, which has the earlier design of chassis. It seems that either chassis was acceptable, and each builder could use whichever they chose. It also appears [which I had not realised] that some AM tanks were 14T anchor mounts. Besides the drawing, photographs show two more anchor mounts, both converted to bitumen tanks after the war, another lubricating oil tank from the same batch converted for SMBP, and a later Class A tank converted for Esso.

[IANATEXTON]

For getting some weight into a tank wagon I have made a small hole and poured in some liquid lead.
Ian

[jjnewitt]

Tourret quotes diameters of 5ft 7.5ins, 5ft 10.5ins, 6ft 2.875ins, 6ft 7.25ins and 7ft 2.125ins for loads of 10, 12 or 14T, covering Class A, class B and unclassed traffic.

I'd completely overlooked table 4 in Tourret's book. The diameter of the Bachmann anchor mount tank varies between 27.2mm and 27.5mm depending on where I put the verniers. So this is somehwere in between a class A (7' 2") and the larger class B (gas oil - 6' 7 1/4") 14T tank. Incidently the Bachmann 14T cradle mount tank measures around 25mm diameter with a little variation either side so would seem to represent a 6' 3" diameter tank. This is a bit small for most of the liveries it comes in.

Geoff Kent gives a date of 1940 for the change in chassis design, but with a prolonged gradual change.

An Illustrated History of SR Wagons Volume 4 makes at least a couple of references to a 1939 RCH underframe design.

The Air Ministry 14T tanks were built from 1939 to 1944, but more towards the end than earlier, as the demand for aviation spirit was at its highest in 1944-45. In rough terms, the first 1000 were built 1939 -1942, the next 1000 in 1942 and the final 1000 in 1942-1944, the actual total being 3170 [including 400 or 450 lubricating oil tanks]. The figures are from an article by Peter Fidczuk in Modellers' BackTrack Vol.3 Nos. 1 & 2. He also gives a 1993 drawing of Hurst Nelson 1940 built AM432, a saddle mounted Class A tank, converted to Class B for SMBP, which shows the later type of chassis.
Conversely he also gives a 1993 drawing of Charles Roberts 1942 built AM1144, an anchor mount lubricating oil tank, converted by SMBP to a bitumen tank, which has the earlier design of chassis. It seems that either chassis was acceptable, and each builder could use whichever they chose.

I though that the point of RCH specifications was to lay down what the standard should be from that point forward? If so why they be able to pick and choose the type of underframe? I can certainly understand it taking a long time to get everyone using the new design as the various works would need to have recieved copies of it. Presumably the works would use the drawings it had if someone ordered more of something and if they hadn't been updated then the wagons would get the old type underframe?

For getting some weight into a tank wagon I have made a small hole and poured in some liquid lead.

Liquid lead isn't a bad idea. I did wonder how easy it would be to secure within the tank if you don't need to fill it right up? Did you use a glue of some sort to stop it moving around?

Justin

[jon price]

For getting some weight into a tank wagon I have made a small hole and poured in some liquid lead.

Liquid lead isn't a bad idea. I did wonder how easy it would be to secure within the tank if you don't need to fill it right up? Did you use a glue of some sort to stop it moving around?

Watch out what kind of glue you use. Some glues will increase oxidation, which since the liquid lead has spherical surfaces can lead to severe increase in volume and thus to your tank bursting apart. I think PVA is one of the problem glues but there have been discussions about this in the past on vartious online fora.

Jon

[IANATEXTON]

I didn't use any glue to secure the liquid lead. It just settles in the bottom of the tank.
Hence if you tip the wagon up the lead flows to one end, but when you put it in the track the lead settles back to give an even distribution of weight.
Ian

[PeteT]

Now that is doing it all right - brake too harshly and the lead will flow to the front of the wagon!

I think there are 2 possible glue issues - one is expansion, but I think the PVA/cyno issue is a gas which is produced over time. If the tank was sealed then this would build up and force its way out, but if a hole is left in the bottom it shouldnt cause an issue. I am no chemist though, so I will probably stand corrected!