Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

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jjnewitt
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Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:58 pm

Hi all,

Over the past coulpe of years I have been working on a number of fully sprung diesels with some degree of sucess. They are reasonably straightforwrd to put together but they do take some time. If anyone is considering going down this route then I would definately recomend giving it a go. It all started with Chris Pendleton's article about his deltic a couple of years ago. I was quite happily building steam locos and had no real designs on diesels but I decided that I'd quite like to give it a go and seem to have contracted some strange bug that I can't get rid of as a result! I haven't gone to quite the same lengths as he did favouring a slightly more user friendly route.
I have built sprung bogies for a Bachmann Warship, Bachmann class 37 and Heljan Hymek as well as cobbling together a fully sprung Heljan class 14. They have all presented different challenges which keep things interesting. Basically they consist of a pair of frames into which are set bearings and guitar wire primary springs then circular bolster flanges (brass tubing) and secondary springing (either steel wire or homemade phosphor bronze wire coils depending on the situation) are added. They are not disimilar to a set of sprung frames for an inside framed 0-4-0 or 0-6-0. I spent a lot of time working out drawings in order to get the primary springs set in the right position when under weight. The warship does still need a bit of work in this area though. This proved to be invaluable when it came to building them. Much time was spent with a calculator and clag's website! To give you some idea here are some illustrations:
C37 Bogie 1.JPG
Class 37 bogie
C37 Bogie 1.JPG (82.3 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

C37 Bogie 2.JPG
Class 37 bogie with cosmetic sideframes fitted
C37 Bogie 2.JPG (72.36 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Hymek Bogie.JPG
Hymek bogie without the geartrain
Hymek Bogie.JPG (73.07 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Warship Bogie.JPG
Warship bogie
Warship Bogie.JPG (61.38 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

In all cases the frames were cut from 0.4mm nickel silver. Frame spacers are Alan Gibson P4 ones.
Bearings are Exactoscale as they were the only 2mm ones I could find at the time. They require a bit of work as they need thinning to allow the geartrains to fit and the holes are invariably off centre so they need to be orientated carefully or things wont be square. In future I will give the High Lavel variety a go as they look like they will be slightly less work.
The bearing carriers for the primary springs are fashioned from brass L section and slodered in place using homemade jigs to set the height on the frames. They are all done individually but I suppose you could easily use CSBs instead.
Coil Springs are made by winding phospher bronze wire around a suitiably sized drill. I probably made twice the number I actually used and cherry picked the best ones. I don't have the facilities to make everything perfectly consistent so there is invariably some wastage. I am very much a "kitchen table" operation. They are attached to the frames using various sizes of brass square and round tubing.
Wheels are Ultrascale. I have had to shave some of the boss off the back in order to get them to fit to gauge but there is plenty left. Room is sometimes very tight with these things.
The bogies are then fitted to the body via a bolster plate glued to the main subframe of the loco. This is more brass tube soldered to a brass plate which keeps everything where it should be.
C37 Bogie Plate.JPG
Class 37 Bogie plate
C37 Bogie Plate.JPG (67.62 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

The bogies are virtually invisable when cosmetic sideframes are fitted or look exactly as they should in the case of the warship.
I have limited test facilities but they seem to work wonderfully well on what I do have and give the locos an air of stability and weight as they roll smoothly along.
The fruits of my labours:
C37 1.JPG
C37 1.JPG (72.84 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

C37 2.JPG
C37 2.JPG (74.47 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Hymek.JPG
Hymek.JPG (67.39 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Warship.JPG
Warship.JPG (64.68 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

The Class 37 is sitting a bit high in the above photos as she is missing her motor cradle "spine" and so most of her weight! She sits about 0.5mm lower when it is added.

Before I sign off a couple of snaps of my Teddy Bear!
Teddy Bear 1.JPG
Teddy Bear 1.JPG (70.24 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Teddy Bear 4.JPG
Don't tell anyone I've got a Teddy Bear!!
Teddy Bear 4.JPG (74.27 KiB) Viewed 11149 times

Any comments or questions please feel free.

Justin

craig_whilding
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby craig_whilding » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:13 pm

Do you find any issues with gear meshing or are they all in line on that original release 37 compared to the later ones? (The later AWD 37s have the idler gears in between and above the driven axles)

What is the thickness of guitar wire used and space between pivot points on the Class 14. I did joke with Will about how you'd CSB one of those at Manchester! We agreed you wouldn't though I did intend on joining together the springs at the one end on my kit. I'll have to finish off my scale coupling rods and try them on on a Heljan, they look a lot better than those pressed ones.

edit: What sizes of brass tube have you used too, i'll have to check Chris' article as I can't remember how he did that, your pictures look spot on though. I wasn't sure about applying the secondary springs and was only going to fit primary on mine

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:29 pm

I haven't had any issues with the meshing on the gears on the class 37. I think the arrangement of the gears is pretty much the same as the AWD ones except that of course that only the two axle are powered. I've had a look at my Bachmann class 47 that will get the treatment at some point and the arrangement of idler gears etc is the same on as the original Bachmann class 37. I assume the latest class 37 release has the same layout as the class 47? Here's a picture of the underneath of one of my class 37 Bogies that shows how things are:
C37 Bogie 3.JPG
C37 Bogie 3.JPG (74 KiB) Viewed 11053 times


The space between the pivot points on the class 14 is 13.5mm. I arrived at this figure by using the deflection of beam equations on clag's website as it gives approximately 0.5mm of deflection when using 0.010" wire springs for the mass of the loco. However when I put it all together it sat with it's front nose pointing towards the sky. I had taken the weight of the loco into account but given the nature of the wheelbase the centre of gravity meant that too much weight was beging taken by the rear axle. In order to cure this problem I replaced the springs on the rear axle with 0.011" wire and now everything sits nice and level. I haven't measured it but there seems to be enough deflection of the springs with this arrangement to keep all the wheels on the track. So in short 0.011" for the rear axle and 0.010"for the other two.

I used 5/8" OD tube from the K&S range for the bolster flanges on the bogies and 21/32" tube on the bolster plate attached to the body subframe. The 5/8" tube is almost exactly the same diameter as width over the fames which is why I used it. On Chis Pendleton's Deltic he used an outside frame set up and put the bolster plate on the bogie and attached the flanges to the body. I couldn't see how this arrangement would work with the inside frames and I don't suppose it really matters which way round things are. The reason I used tubing on the bolster plate on the body is that I have no idea how I could accurately cut a circle out of brass sheet with the tools that I've got. I did wonder if the extra depth on the bogie plate would impede the ability of the bogie to twist but it doesn't seem to be an issue.

Justin

craig_whilding
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby craig_whilding » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:33 am

Sorry I didn't thank you for the extra info on your springing earlier.

As your interest is in S.Wales I was trying to post the following on rmweb earlier but its fallen over at the moment.. LEt me know if any of the following info sources might be useful. As im modelling the S.Wales scene from '58-'65 i've collected an amount of data to go with that.

31406/5 WTT WR Cardiff District Section E 1964-06-15 - 1965-06-13
31406/14 WTT WR Cardiff District Section C2 1965-06-14 - 1966-04-17
31408/25 WTT WR Cardiff District Section C2 - Supplement No.8 commencing 1966-01-03
31456/5 WTT (Conditional Train Services) WR Cardiff District Branch Lines Section E 1972-10-02 - 1973-05-06

30012 Sectional Appendix WR Cardiff District Marshfield to Pyle East and Branches 1960-07
- Sectional Appendix WR Swansea District Pyle West Junction to Fishguard Harbour and Branches including Swansea (Victoria) to Builth Road (excl.) and Swansea (St Thomas) to Brynamman East. 1958-04 (updated 1958-08)
30012 Sectional Appendix WR Cardiff District 1969-04
30012/3 Sectional Appendix WR Cardiff District Supplement No.2 1971-11

I've decided to start with Pannier tanks plus wooden minerals and leave the 37s until i've seen what else Brian wants to release for them.

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:17 pm

Hi Craig,

Don't worry.

That's a very nice collection of working timetables you've managed to gather some of which would indeed be really useful. My very embryonic layout will be set somewhere in the period 1963/65 and is based on a fictional secondary line to the north of Cardiff running between just west of Ely and Pengam, a sort of 'Cardiff District line'. Lots of freight, some milk, ocassioanal parcels traffic particularly empty vans heading east, perhaps even the Fishguard boat train avoiding the congestion around Cardiff General, Cardiff East Dock shed moved to a slightly more spacious site in the north of the city. Anything that relates to through workings on the South Wales main line or traffic from Radyr particularly along the Roath branch would be facinating to see. In particular the section E and 1965 C2 timetables and the 1960 Sectional Appendix. I love trying to research things like that. Any help would be very gratefully recieved!

Thanks,

Justin

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:14 pm

I've done some more work to the class 37 and have recently taken the underframe to pieces in order to paint it. I took the opertunity to get a pic of the bogies without the wheels and geartrain which hopefully will better illustrate the layout of the springs.
Finished Bogies.JPG
Finished Bogies.JPG (66.23 KiB) Viewed 10627 times

I manage to keep finding things to do to 'improve' her. :) Latest are new Oleo buffers replacing the original oversized Bachmann ones. One day she will be finished! I haven't kept track of the ammount of time I've spent on her but hopefully it will all be worth it in the end. I suspect in the end it wont be that far short of the time I've taken to put together a Mitchell Manor though that still needs work as well. We spend scores of hours on our high end steam locos, myself included, so why shouldn't we invest similar care and attention with our diesels? Having said that some other diesel classes don't require quite so much work to bring them up to that sort of standard.
Ghostly 37.JPG
Ghostly 37.JPG (55.61 KiB) Viewed 10627 times

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Penrhos1920 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:13 pm

Justin,

How do you attached the bogie to the chassis? CP uses a hook at each of the bogie that turns and engages with the chassis, but I can't see any hooks on your bogies.

Thanks
Richard
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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:41 pm

Hi Richard,

The method of attachment varies depending on what the model had. I've tried to make use of whatever of the original I can to make life easy. The following is the Bachmann Warship. I took the locating lugs off the sides of metal chassis block to save grinding it out as per Mr Norgrove and simply glued some 1/8" brass L section to retain the bogies making use of the 'wings' on the drivetrain.
Chassis Warship.JPG
Chassis Warship.JPG (64.4 KiB) Viewed 10297 times

The Hymek was similar in a way. In order to get everything to work properly I took out the bit of plastic that allowed the bogie to pivot and held it at a constant height. If you are unfamiliar with how Heljan do things it can be seen under the left flywheel on the motor in this picture. By keeping the top retaining plate on the drive train and putting a metal bar beneath it this ensures that the bogie stays where it should and doesn't fall out.
Chassis Hymek.JPG
Chassis Hymek.JPG (57.5 KiB) Viewed 10297 times

The Class 37 needed a different approach and does have a hook of sorts. I haven't got any decent illustrative pictures so will have to try and describe it as best I can. In the following picture if you look under the universal joints on the bogies there's a short piece of nickel silver strip. This is soldered to a screw threaded through the plastic and is able to rotate through 180 degrees. When assembled with the bolster plate that attaches to the chassis it stops the bogie from falling out. That was the theory anyway. However when I came to giving it a test run and when the bogie tipped forwards the two pieces of tubing acting as the bolster disengaged from each other so it fell out. Fortunately, as I found out by accident, when the chassis is properly assembled and the cardan shafts are put in place the bogie can't tip forwards enough to allow the tubes to disengage. I'm not sure what is going on with the cardan shafts and universal joints to achieve this as it's imposible to see. So in short that hook on the drivetrain but only when the shafts are in place! I'll have to perhaps refine the idea with the bogies for my Class 47s or maybe do what CP did.
Chassis Class 37.JPG
Chassis Class 37.JPG (78.98 KiB) Viewed 10297 times

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Jonathan Hughes
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Jonathan Hughes » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:18 pm

Hi, only just found this thread ... from your link in your sig on RMWeb.... splendid work! Truly inspirational. Something to ponder on and aim for perhaps.

Not worked out introductions or how to do signatures on here yet... but same user name as RMWeb

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Flymo748
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:55 pm

Jon020 wrote:Not worked out introductions or how to do signatures on here yet... but same user name as RMWeb

Welcome Jon :-)

Introductions in your own time, but you can set a signature in User Control Panel -> Profile -> Edit Signature.

HTH
Flymo (also the same on RMW, occasionally)
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Flymo748
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:14 pm

Jon020 wrote:Hi, only just found this thread ... from your link in your sig on RMWeb.... splendid work! Truly inspirational. Something to ponder on and aim for perhaps.

Not worked out introductions or how to do signatures on here yet... but same user name as RMWeb


On a different note, are you still planning to be at Watford on Saturday Jon?

if so, look out for a bloke wandering around in a Ducati jacket and sunglasses...

There won't be a Scalefour Society stand there unfortunately, so I'll just be a punter for once.

Flymo
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Trevor Grout
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Trevor Grout » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:24 pm

There won't be a Scalefour Society stand there unfortunately, so I'll just be a punter for once.

Flymo



WHAT! Flymo a punter, :shock: :o really.....

I might get there on Saturday, if I don't called away to do real work as I am on call, or I might go Sunday.

Regards
Trevor

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Jonathan Hughes
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Jonathan Hughes » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:33 pm

Hi,.. yes I'll be at Watford on Saturday... ddecision decisions... ok, green top... short hair (just cut) and probably hanging around layouts like Mark T's admiring trackwork... or talking deltics etc there or at any trade stand that will listen :D Sort of said I might bring my deltic with me... Looking forward to the show for inspiration in what to start on for a diorama / micro layout / plank... perhaps a cross between Jim S-W's plank and Terry B's article in S4 News 169.
Hope to see you there!

Sorry for the thread hijack!
Jon

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Flymo748
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:25 pm

Trevor Grout wrote:
There won't be a Scalefour Society stand there unfortunately, so I'll just be a punter for once.

Flymo



WHAT! Flymo a punter, :shock: :o really.....

Oddly enough, I generally enjoy being on the Stand talking to people or showing off bits of modelling, or going round yacking to traders to see how business is going rather than actually looking at the layouts themselves...

I don't often go to shows as shows, IYSWIM :-)

So this will be a welcome change to just be one of the crowd at Watford, and an enjoyable one as well with Portchullin there, and Horsley Bank - my favourite layout from Scaleforum a couple of years ago.

Will be an enjoyable day!
Cheers
Flymo
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Horsetan
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Horsetan » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:23 pm

Particularly like the Hymek and the "Teddy Bear"
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:43 pm

Thanks for your kind comments Horsetan. The bolster arrangement is indeed inspired by Chris Pendleton's work on his Deltic merely reversed so the flanges are on the bogie. MRJ 188 has been well thumbed over the past couple of years!

Work continues, mainly on the Class 37 which has become D6904. After the Class 47 bogie diversion and messing around with a few wagons that are going through the works I'm now trying to get her finished. She's nearly there now with the last major job being the glazing which has been started. All this detailing work seems to take an eternity and a lot of time has been spent going back over things that I've not been satisfied with. The frost grills have been taken off for the umpteenth time. I wasn't happy with the state of them after they'd been through the paintshop so they got stripped and repainted. The etches are wonderfully fine and they can easily get clogged up with primer/paint when I'm left in charge of a spray can! In hindsight I'd should have painted them and the body seperately. You live and learn. They look nice and 'transparent' now. Hopefully not too long now before she's done.
Class 37 Pipework 1.JPG
Class 37 Pipework 1.JPG (68.77 KiB) Viewed 9774 times

Class 37 Pipework 2.JPG
Class 37 Pipework 2.JPG (67.48 KiB) Viewed 9774 times

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Mike Garwood » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:37 am

Justin,

The 37 looks really good. Any thoughts on getting etches done to allow others not quiet as skilled to upgrade their locos as well? Sorry if this has been asked before...

regards

Mike

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Horsetan
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Horsetan » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Mike Garwood wrote:....Any thoughts on getting etches done to allow others not quiet as skilled to upgrade their locos as well? Sorry if this has been asked before...


I was going to ask the same thing myself.

I know Brian Hanson has plans to do something similar, but I think the timescale before his version becomes working reality could be as long as five years.

The other thing I'd like to do with the mechanisms is see whether the worm gears can be replaced by bevels or contrate-and-pinion sets.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:03 pm

I'm not against the idea of doing some etches for these bogies at all but the problem that I have is that I have zero experience of CAD. Fold up etched bogies would be great and would save a lot of hassle, producing the designs for them would be quite straightforward and indeed I've thought about how I'd do it and some refinements that the process would allow to be incorperated. The issue for me is getting from the design stage to the CAD artwork that can be used to produce the etches. It doesn't make sense to me to use etching to just save cutting out sideframes and so would ideally be a one peice fold up design incorperating fold out primary spring bearers and locating holes for the High Level hornblocks. This would require a high degree of acuracy and some knowldege of how best to use the etching process to produce that accuracy, knowldege that I haven't got at the moment. Of course if there's anyone is interested and who has required knowledge who would be able to help out and produce the CAD artwork without it costing a fortune then I could certainly be prepared to produce the etches.

David Knight
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby David Knight » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:55 pm

Justin,

I've been following your work with great interest and have found your solutions very interesting especially as I have a 37 lurking in the conversion queue. One thing I've wondered about, is there any simple way to hide the bright white gear on the front axle of the drive train?

Cheers,

David

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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:28 am

jjnewitt wrote:This would require a high degree of acuracy and some knowldege of how best to use the etching process to produce that accuracy, knowldege that I haven't got at the moment.


It is possible that one of the suppliers of etched kits and bits would be able to assist - for a fee of course. In the past Mike Edge of Judith Edge kits has done some work for me at what I think is a resonable price. Unfortunately Mike has been unwell recently but I believe that he is now recovered. Try some of the smaller suppliers who deal with etched kits and see what happens. A lot of names will be found in the guide for Scaleforum 2011.

Terry Bendall

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Mike Garwood » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:07 pm

Justin

Send me a pdf - by PM - with the sketched dimensions on and I shall draw it out in CAD for you...if you want to take it to someone else after no probs.

Mike

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:12 pm

Thanks for the offer Mike. After the weekend I'll sort out some drawings for the class 37 bogies and we'll see what can be done. I'll be in touch.

Thanks for the tip Terry. It might be a good idea to try and get some advice from Mike Edge or some one similar on producing the etches.

Hi David. That white drive gear is a bit annoying isn't it. I don't really notice it in normal lighting conditions but as soon I see a photo it sticks out like a sore thumb. I'll sort out some sort of plate to go on the front of the drivetrain moulding to hide it. I wonder if there should be ATC gubbins at the front of the bogie? Maybe that could be a solution. It's a shame Bachmann didn't use black plastic for it!

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jjnewitt
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby jjnewitt » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:19 pm

Something at last approaches completion! There's a couple of little jobs still to do, she needs some worksplates and windscreen wipers as well as weathering but is pretty much done. I'm not completely sure about the colour, in some lights it's ok but in others not, so I might respray her at some point but not until I've got myself an airbrush. Glazing is lazerglaze for the cab windscreen (due to an oversight made flush fitting, wont be doing that again!) and 0.020" Cobex for the rest. Finally she has a pair of suitable headcodes, light engine to Canton at one end and a Hafodyrynys to Margam coking coal train at the other. I made a plate to hide the white drivegear at the front of the bogies and she looks much better for it. There are a few more photos and a bit more detail here.
D6904 03 S.JPG
D6904 03 S.JPG (61.96 KiB) Viewed 9461 times

D6904 05 S.JPG
D6904 05 S.JPG (66.57 KiB) Viewed 9461 times

Time to get those bogie drawings finished, she'll need some siblings at some point.

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Adventures in the land of fully sprung diesels

Postby Mike Garwood » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:21 pm

DAMN, that looks good. Nice one!

Mike


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