Buck Jumping on Mass

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Will L
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Buck Jumping on Mass - The Build Phase

Postby Will L » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:27 pm

Part 30 – Sandboxes to the for

A Respite from the plumbing


So as to have a little breather from the plumbing (there is still plenty to do) I’m going to turn my attention to the front sandboxes which, for both locos, sit on the footplate beside the smokebox which keeps the sand nice and warm and dry. The picture shows one on the J69, in the right place but not yet soldered down. Note that, on the J69, the footsteps are set directly below the sandbox which has a small handrail on the top. While on the J65, the handrail is fitted at the front edge of the tank, the footsteps are directly beneath there and the crew had to shuffle along the foot plate to replenish the sandbox.

Buck SB J69 placed.jpg
Buck SB J69 placed.jpg (126.24 KiB) Viewed 2526 times


How things change

The sandboxes themselves show the evolution of the kits. Mr Rice did the J65 first and the sandboxes were white metal castings. Things then moved on. and for the J69 kit the sandbox had evolved into a fold up etched brass box. The next picture shows you most of the necessary bits for the J69 plus the white metal alternative. One J69 box has been assembled and one is still in the etch. Note that the top edge by the smokebox is cut away as the box fits tight against the smoke box saddle and under the smokebox as it curves out. The J65 white metal ones needed filing back slightly to achieve the same thing. In case anybody is wondering the sand feed pipe from under the footplate is modelled as part of the removable brake gear we put together a long ago in Part 6a.

Buck SB bits.jpg
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Preparation

There is no doubt the white metal things aren’t a patch on the etched version. Although those who have had enough of fiddly soldering jobs are provided with the white metal version in the J69 kit. There being no choice in its case, the J65 got the white metal version but I really wasn’t satisfied with the featureless blob representing the sandbox filler lid, for reasons which should be clear from the photograph. The lathe owners amongst you would have doubtless quickly turned up solid brass replacements, but that course wasn’t open to me. However, I do own a Dremel power drill, and some small turnings are still within still my grasp. Although starting with a solid lump of brass rod of the right diameter would be asking rather a lot. The filler lid was made from a section of tube, with a brass rod up the middle and a small square of brass fret drilled and soldered over the rod to the top of the tube. A few minutes in the drill using a file made the square round, and produced a passable representation of the filler cap. They were so passable I rejected the brass rivets supplied for this job on the J69 (they were little better than the white metal blob) and made enough (4) to do for both.

There is also an operating crank/pull rod which connects the sandbox to the cab. The completed J69 Sandbox has been drilled to accept this. Also in the picture are a filler cap, a mystery ring of fuse wire which I will explain in a minute, and a sandbox handrail bent up to exactly the right length using Mr Bedford’s very handy wire bending jig.

Installation on the J65

The next photo shows a white metal box soldered to the J65 footplate, with the replacement box filler lid as well as the operating crank and pull rod from the cab. This last detail was mentioned in the kit instructions but I could find no parts provided for it. It was fabricated from a bit of spare etch, of the right width, and with an L shape at one end. Such things can commonly be found on etch sheets.

Buck SB J65 fitted.jpg
Buck SB J65 fitted.jpg (133.06 KiB) Viewed 2526 times


On the J65 the operating crank is drilled for the pivot and again so a bit of rod can suggest the pivot between the crank and the pull rod. The crank should be angled forward (when the sand is off) and this angle was achieved just by a slight bend in the pull rod. The pull rod then follows the profile of the smokebox and the boiler before disappearing behind the tank, where, on the model, it was soldered off.

The fold up boxes for the J69

I did wonder if the etched box on the J69 may have been a bit of an afterthought for the kit designer. The top folds back on itself presumably to form a rebate into which the side will sit, but it wasn’t accurate enough to locate the sides, and the holes in its two parts (for the filler cap and the handrail) didn’t line up.

The whole thing proved a bit fiddly to put together. Folding up the box sides, it is unclear if the joint was side over end or end over side or neither, the rebate round the top didn’t help. When it came to aligning the bottom with the sides, so there is an even overlap round the three visible sides, you are on your own. None the less the result still looked better than the white metal variety.

My filler caps didn’t stand up enough from the box top so that mysterious ring of fuse wire spaces the filler cap from the top of the box. The hole for the rod onto which the operating crank was to be pivoted was drilled through both top and bottom of the box. That way the rod can be firmly soldered in at the bottom with no need to affix it at the top, which makes soldering on the operating crank without making a mess a lot easier. For the same reason, I fitted the handrail earlier while you can still get at the inside of the box with the soldering iron.

The operating crank and pull rod were provided for in the etch but were too fine to permit me to drill them to take the crank pivot, to say nothing of being a shape I didn’t agree represented what I was trying to achieve. Once again I went looking for L shaped etched brass scrap. I used a sliver of 0.9mm OD tube to make a rather more substantial pivot on the crank than I’d managed on the J56. In the end, I gave up on trying to represent the pivoted joint between crank and pull rod as all I was getting was amorphous blobs of solder which you couldn’t really see anyway.

Installation on the J69

As the final picture shows, on the J69 the tanks are larger and come further down the foot plate so, on the side with the Westinghouse pump, things starts to get a bit crowded. On the J65, the footplate had an etch hole which located a pip on the bottom of white metal boxes. On the J69 you are on your own as far as locating the sandboxes was concerned, and I had to have a couple of goes until I was happy that I’d got them in the right place. I also had to be careful to leave just enough room so the removable boiler stayed removable. Once this was done I found that I could only get the smokebox saddle to sit flat on the footplate by bolting it down. Fortunately something I had made provision for, but that I hadn’t done when I took the photo.

Buck SB J69 fitted.jpg
Buck SB J69 fitted.jpg (138.12 KiB) Viewed 2526 times


What the photo also shows is that when I replaced the missing handrail knob (see the last picture in part 29) I chose one that was the wrong size. I will need to do something about that

On the other side of the smokebox the kit also has provision for a mechanical lubricator, nicely cast in brass, which goes on the footplate directly behind the sandbox. Even more crowding and another six holes to be drilled I thought. That was until a check on the pictures in Yeadon Volume 48 showed that J69s were not so fitted, while the J68’s, which you can also build from this kit, were. The J68s were the last Buckjumpers built. Very similar to the final J69s but with a higher cab roof from the start, much larger cab windows, and mechanical lubrication, apparently. Time to wipe sweat from brow and move on.

Lastly, you will note that the tank filler caps are yet to be fitted. Here in lies a significant tail which has yet be told, but I think we’ll have a go at the cabs next.

HC 51003

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Will L
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Buck Jumping on Mass - The Build Phase

Postby Will L » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:50 pm

Part 31 – Cab fittings, starting with the roof.

The design of both J65 and J69 kits includes a fairly complete cab interior. We fitted the floors way back in part 12 and left them at that. Now is the time to complete the job. We’ll start with the cab roofs and work our way in from there.

Putting a lid on it


Anybody who has been awake over the last few years should have realised that I have had cab roofs fitted to both locos for a long time and a version of this photo appeared back in part 17.

Buck roofs.jpg
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To facilitate painting the cab interior once completed, a removable cab roof is a must have, and it fits in with my general philosophy of constructing the models as a series of sub assemblies that clip together at the end. The photo does show there are some difficulties one needs to be aware of. The J69 roof to the left is clearly well seated, while the J56 to the right is less so. In truth the slight gap between cab and roof at the edges is because the roof hasn’t been pushed down as well as it could be, and in any event, it would not be so obvious from a normal viewing distance. It is taking photos showing the models several times larger than real life that can be problematic. They repeatedly show things that you would have wished to have done better, or that haven’t been fitted properly. Clearly taking such photos is a real aid to good modelling but can be a bit sole destroying at times. Anyway back to removable cab roofs.

Framing the problem

I started with 1.25mm Outside Diameter tube from which I cut 4 bits 5mm long. The 4 sections of tube were fitted in the corners of the cab about 1.5mm down from the top, thus forming sockets into which the removable roof will clip. This picture of the J69 shows the sockets in place.

Buck RCR J69 sockets.jpg
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0.7mm wire is a good fit down the inside of this tube. Two pieces of this wire were bent up to the roof profile with the ends turned down so they fitted into the sockets either side of the cab front and back sheets and the wire followed the profile of the roof line. Straight pieces of the same wire were soldered between, and close to the ends of, these profile pieces. This gave a removable frame that will slide in and out of the sockets and follows the edges of the cab sheets, as in this picture of the J56.

Buck RCR J56 frame.jpg
Buck RCR J56 frame.jpg (96.29 KiB) Viewed 2339 times


Rolling my own

The next trick was to roll the cab roof to the correct profile. I’m with the lady cigar makers of Havana and roll things like this against my thigh, using in this case a round Xacto (about ½ inch) craft knife handle. Both the roof and the frame need to be a reasonable match to the roof profile, but perfection isn’t necessary. If anything the roof should be rolled a touch too much so it must straighten a touch when pushed firmly against the edges of the cab sheets. With the frame in place and the roof held firmly in the correct position with the right overhangs front and back, the two were tack soldered together at the centre points of all 4 sides. This is one of those jobs where three hands would be useful, and I had more than one go before I was happy. It sets the curvature of the roof which can now be removed and the rest of the solder joints between the roof and the frame were run, making sure not to allow any movement between the two.

Finishing the job

Both kits come with a battening square detail to add to the roof tops. I’m not totally convinced the roofs were ever like this, certainly in latter days a single rains strip over the cab doors was the order of the day. However I can’t find any photo evidence that the GER didn’t make them like this, and, as I like the look, I went with it. You can see the result in the first photo.

There is also an issue with knowing which way round the roofs should go on. They will fit the wrong way round but not perfectly, so there is a need to remember which way is which. This photo shows the pointers soldered to the underside of the roofs to remind me which way is which. You will also notice that, on the basis of experience, the J69 frames was done slightly differently than on the J65.

Buck RCR inside both.jpg
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Interiors next up

The last picture this time is of both locos with there lids on. You will notice that there is rather more in the J56 cab than there is in the J69. So next time we’ll move on to completing the cab interiors using the J69 as our example.

Bucks both lids on.jpg
Bucks both lids on.jpg (80.46 KiB) Viewed 2339 times


RC51961

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Will L
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Buck Jumping on Mass - The Build Phase

Postby Will L » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:25 pm

Part 32 – Cab fittings, knobs handles and boxes.

Having got the cab roof sorted, the next logical step is to detail the interior.

Facing Back

On the bunker front sheet, both kits came with coal hole details and the handbrake, and to be honest this was done when I first built the body shell.

Buck J69 cab interior rear.jpg
Buck J69 cab interior rear.jpg (91.88 KiB) Viewed 2025 times


At the time I was unsure if the rear cab sheet had a recess bent into it so the handbrake could be applied without barking the fireman’s knuckles. The information I had at the time was ambivalent on the subject, although one of the kits did come with a cast metal lump which could be interpreted as the appropriate bit. As a solid lump of white metal it wasn’t ever going to show on the inside of the cab, and, with a bunker full of coal, it wouldn’t show on the outside either, I left it off. I now know they were definitely there, and if I decide to finish off either loco with a half full bunker, I may have to think again. If any future kit designer thinks they want to include this detail in their etches so its visible on the inside of the cab too, I do have ideas as to how it can be done, it’s just a bit late for these two.

Facing Forward

There is more to do against the cab front sheets. Both kits come with a nice brass lost wax backhead casting, a couple of simple cab boxes (crew lockers) that sit in the bottom front corners, and the appropriate reversing gear. On the J65 I fitted the bits the kit provided, but that was a while ago now. When I finally got round to the J69 I was rather better provided with drawings and decided I could do a bit better the second time.

Backheads

We’ll start with the best bit. The kit provided brass backheads do seem acceptably accurate and were fitted as they came. What I didn’t want to do was to solder them in permanently as they do deserve to be painted appropriately, and that was going to be a b***** to do fixed inside the cab. So they too were made removable on both locos.

Buck Backheads.jpg
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The top edge of each backhead was drilled vertically and a pin fitted as in the picture. At the bottom, scrap brass strip was used to form a vertical slot. An upstand was soldered to the cab floor that fitted this slot, and a little bracket with a hole for that pin was soldered to the cab front sheets. With pin and slot engaged the backhead is held firmly against the cab front sheet, but they don’t stop the backhead falling out again if you turned the loco over. The final step was to solder a loop of wire to the backhead back which extended just below the cab floor. A spring wire catch was soldered under the cab floor and engaged with this loop.

Buck Backhead attach.jpg
Buck Backhead attach.jpg (79.32 KiB) Viewed 2025 times


Result, the backheads were held firmly in place but could be slid out when required. Not very pretty on the inside but where you can’t see it, so I didn’t care.

You should note that the backheads are equipped with a combination brake valve, presumably for combined steam/Westinghouse operation. The J69 being Vacuum brake fitted, ought to have an alternative triple brake value fitted behind where the vacuum ejector pipe enters the cab. I looked long and hard at this, the questions being, could I actually manage to model the triple valve, and if I did, would you ever be able to see it with the cab roof on. I decided you wouldn’t so I left well alone.

Reversing Gear

As both my locos are for passenger use (a consequence of their genesis, see the very first post in this thread) they are fitted with screw reverse. The operating wheel is on the right hand, drivers, side, and are clearly visible through the cab door and align with the edge of the cab sheet. A handle projects just a bit further than the wheel and you can’t help feeling a bruise on the leg acquired when getting into the cab must have been an occupational hazard for Buckjumper drivers.

On the J65, a lost wax casting of the screw reverser was originally provided, but for whatever reason an a etched brass origami special was also provided as a later “improvement” to the kit. The J69 only had a further evolution of the fold up version. Both these etches were a bit confusing, particularly when you have little idea what they are supposed to look like. What I didn’t realise at the time was that, unusually, they are modelled in gear, but whether forward or reverse I still don’t know for certain. I did get both etches built, and at that point I decided to go with the unimproved cast version on the J65. This was attached to the side of the rather anaemic drivers side cab corner box in accordance with the instructions and I left it at that.

As the drawings I had to hand when I did the J69 were much more complete, I thought again.

Cab Lockers


The drawing shows there were relatively large boxes/lockers/cupboards in both front corners of the cab. The water tanks intrude into the cab a little less than 12” inches and the lockers are added on to the back of those at a slightly lower level. The fireman’s side box has a nice little cupboard door and on the top surface is a handle which works the injector water valve on his side. On the drivers side the screw reversing gear is actually let into the side of the box which no longer features a cupboard door, but the injector water control was still there. The next picture shows the two cab boxes.

Buck J69 cab lockers.jpg
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I got the depth wrong to start with and had to extend them out by an extra 1mm, which shows in this picture but doesn’t when fitted in the cab.

buck j69 interior forward.jpg
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I have decided that I’d rather paint these before they are fitted too, so for this photo they are loose in the cab. If I ever decide that I really should have a representation of the triple brake valve it goes above the shelf in the top right corner and needs a pipe feed added up the front of the backhead.

And the rest

The other thing that needs fitting inside the cab is of course the crew. The observant will have noted that they have been present in the J65 for a while. However, as I planned to use white metal cast crew members, and as such they were to form a significant element in the weight added to the locos to balance them up, I’ll come back to them when we get to the weight adding stage.

Buck j65 crew.jpg
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There is also the possibility of fitting the sander controls to the bunker front sheet but I was beginning to feel I had done enough already.

One last question


I’ve never bothered to model a cab interior in this sort of detail before and I’ve learned a lot in the process. Now I know it is the injector steam valves that sit on the top edge of the backhead, and injector water valve control that sits on the top of the cab lockers, they have left a question in my mind. To work the injectors, do you turn the steam on before the water or visa versa?

While we are thinking about water, next time I’ll tackle the water tank filler caps. These present a little difficulty which I have been contemplating for a while.

RC 54709

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:42 pm

Excellent work there Will. As I've said before I do like a detailed cab. I look forward to seeing them all painted up.

Keep Safe

Dave

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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:51 pm

Water first! Then steam on a little, adjust water flow till it picks up, then steam full on. Well that's my technique on Bala Lake Railway!

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Neil Smith
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:36 pm

Yes always water on first, otherwise the steam just blows through and out the water drain pipe.
It depends on the loco and the type of injector, and how well the latter is maintained, as to the best technique.
If you are lucky, put water on to the "right" level for optimum pickup, turn on steam full and smile as it sings into action, with not a drop out the drain pipe.
Other tricks for the harder of fortune include full water, full steam, then drop the water flow down and staight back up, the slight interruption causing it to pick up, or blow through of you get it wrong.
Or in one particularly narky injector I have done repeated battle with, water on full , steam on, wait for about 5 seconds and there was an audible clunk from the injector, then and only then do a lightning fast waggle of the water valve. This was the only reliable way to get it to pick up and stay running. But with 200psi, if it blew thru, everyone knew about it. And you had to pray that it didn't blow having started to lift the boiler clack, otherwise you had 200psi out the drain pipe that didn't stop when you shut the injector steam valve off.....

Happy days (???!)

Neil

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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:16 am

Yes Neil describes more fully the routine.

Neil Smith wrote: having started to lift the boiler clack, otherwise you had 200psi out the drain pipe that didn't stop when you shut the injector steam valve off.....

Happy days (???!)

Neil


Oh that's quite normal on the Quarry Hunslets in hot weather! - but 120psi is a lot more friendly. Still, it's annoying how long it takes to shut the clack valve.
I think Will the point is that the fireman has to manipulate both controls at once (water and steam) having started with the water.

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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:13 pm

Hello Will, wonderful thread (well, group of threads), packed full of useful techniques and information, great resource!

Reading about your use of several different temperature solders, including in very close - possibly physically overlapping - proximity, can I ask if you've ever had problems with the different solders mixing and producing ill-effects? When I first started reading about soldered kit construction (I think it's mentioned in Iain Rice's books, to which I still refer regularly) I picked up that mixing different solders can end in disaster, and a sort of mushy substance that won't stick to anything. I think, to be fair, this may have been primarily referring to mixing 70 and 145, and the fact that 70 isn't really solder in the strict sense, but nevertheless I wondered about other types mixing too. So far I've only used 145 and 188 and kept them separate: am I being too cautious?

Best regards, Chas
Chas

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Will L
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Will L » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:57 pm

Chas Levin wrote:...Reading about your use of several different temperature solders, including in very close - possibly physically overlapping - proximity, can I ask if you've ever had problems with the different solders mixing and producing ill-effects? When I first started reading about soldered kit construction (I think it's mentioned in Iain Rice's books, to which I still refer regularly) I picked up that mixing different solders can end in disaster, and a sort of mushy substance that won't stick to anything. I think, to be fair, this may have been primarily referring to mixing 70 and 145, and the fact that 70 isn't really solder in the strict sense, but nevertheless I wondered about other types mixing too. So far I've only used 145 and 188 and kept them separate: am I being too cautious?

Hi Chas,
Glad you found my wanderings useful. The hot solders (145/188/212) I do use in sequence and in proximity. The idea is that you don't melt the hotter one so the thing you've already assembled stays that way. It does require good judgment of how hot your going to get things and It doesn't always work. The solders will mix quite happily but lord knows at what temperature the result melts at, and the chances are the thing you were trying to make just fell apart. Lets just say its doesn't pay to try to be too cleaver.

The 70/80 degree stuff is very different, and i doubt it mixes well with the others. But as is only useful on white metal which will have melted itself long before you get the ordinary solders to melt so I'm not clear when you would get into that situation. Low metal soldering is more akin to welding than soldering. But do remember that to solder white metal to brass you must first tin the brass or the low met wont stick. Doesn't seem to mater which hi melt solder you use for this but I doubt it melts when you make the joint.

The interesting one is the relatively new 100 degree stuff which you can use it to solder white metal (with very great care on little bits of white metal) and does allow you to solder white metal to brass without it being pre-tinned. This works on brass to brass and I use it to solder big bits of brass together (lost wax bonier fittings to boilers for instance) which otherwise can be very hard going. This seems to be much more like the higher melt solders but I haven't yet tried using it as yet another step down in temperature, so I wouldn't like to comment if it will work in that role.

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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:02 am

Will L wrote:Low metal soldering is more akin to welding than soldering.


In that the solder and the parent white metal melt and fuse together, yes. I sometimes use low melting point solder on brass where there are other joints close by which I don't want to melt.

Terry Bendall

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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:59 pm

Will L wrote:Hi Chas,
Glad you found my wanderings useful. The hot solders (145/188/212) I do use in sequence and in proximity. The idea is that you don't melt the hotter one so the thing you've already assembled stays that way. It does require good judgment of how hot your going to get things and It doesn't always work. The solders will mix quite happily but lord knows at what temperature the result melts at, and the chances are the thing you were trying to make just fell apart. Lets just say its doesn't pay to try to be too cleaver.

The 70/80 degree stuff is very different, and i doubt it mixes well with the others. But as is only useful on white metal which will have melted itself long before you get the ordinary solders to melt so I'm not clear when you would get into that situation. Low metal soldering is more akin to welding than soldering. But do remember that to solder white metal to brass you must first tin the brass or the low met wont stick. Doesn't seem to mater which hi melt solder you use for this but I doubt it melts when you make the joint.

The interesting one is the relatively new 100 degree stuff which you can use it to solder white metal (with very great care on little bits of white metal) and does allow you to solder white metal to brass without it being pre-tinned. This works on brass to brass and I use it to solder big bits of brass together (lost wax bonier fittings to boilers for instance) which otherwise can be very hard going. This seems to be much more like the higher melt solders but I haven't yet tried using it as yet another step down in temperature, so I wouldn't like to comment if it will work in that role.


Hello Will, thanks for the reply, very interesting. I'm still finding my feet in the area of planning which things to solder with high temp stuff first, so I'm pleased to hear they can mix without problems.

I only recently tried soldering WM to brass using 70, pre-tinning the brass first and it works very well. Like you, I doubt the higher temp stuff melts when you then use 70 degree on it. Now you mention it, I can't see how they'd mix, except if you were to use the same iron bit, which is why I use different ones for different solder types, as I'm guessing everyone does.

Interesting to hear of a new 100 degree type - I've not come across that before so I'll investigate.
Chas

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Will L
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Will L » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:43 am

Chas Levin wrote:...I can't see how they'd mix, except if you were to use the same iron bit, which is why I use different ones for different solder types, as I'm guessing everyone does.

Sorry no, I just clean them so there is no excess solder left on the tip i.e.back to the tinning, remembering that for Low Melt you always have to to tin the bit with something else.

After years of using a damp sponge to clean the bit I now use the pan scourer type metal foil strip bit cleaner which I find works better than the sponge and is always available as it isn't damp so can't dry out.

As to changing bits, as your iron ages, getting the bit off becomes much more difficult, so you don't want to change them unless you really have to. However having different size bits is handy, so different irons with different size bits is the way to go. I use an Antex temperature control 50 watt soldering station with two plug in hand sets with different size bits.

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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:39 pm

Oh - I didn't know tinning a low-melt bit with something other than low-melt was advisable, I always tin with the low-melt itself: I shall investigate!

The iron I use - a Weller - has the advantage that changes bits is very quick and easy, so I do use different bits for 70, 145, 188 and electrical. I do also use a metal type of bit cleaner as you do, but it's brass, looks like lots of very thin ribbon or strip. I use a damp sponge for electrical though - not sure why, other than that's what I always used to use when electrical was the only type of soldering I'd ever done :) .

Well, this wouldn't be the first time I've discovered that I'm rather on the cautious, belt-and -braces side...
Chas

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Will L
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Will L » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:09 pm

Chas Levin wrote:Oh - I didn't know tinning a low-melt bit with something other than low-melt was advisable, I always tin with the low-melt itself: I shall investigate!...

I'm surprised to hear you think you can tin with low melt. I would have said it wouldn't work!

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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:10 pm

Well it seems to, as far as I can tell: I've built quite a few WM kits and done it that way. The bit remains tinned (i.e. it doesn't crust over), it holds solder to transfer to the joint, it heats the joint easily, the flux fizzes as it should and the joints are strong. I realise I may be doing it wrong but it seems to work...
Given that I'm sure you know a lot of other modellers Will, and have worked alongside them (which I haven't), is it the case then that tinning with higher temp is the 'normal' way?
Chas

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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:36 pm

The bible on low melt soldering is here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/Robbo.htm
He does recommend tinning the iron with normal solder first. NB this is under soldering irons in the tools section near the end.
Regards
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:37 pm

I have a low melt soldering iron, a type that Hubert Carr used to sell, especially for soldering white metal kits and I have only ever used low melt solder with the bits. The temperature is set just below the melting point of white metal, so will not melt higher melting point solders anyway. If I need to pre-tin a piece of brass with ordinary solder, I use a conventional iron for this.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:48 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:The bible on low melt soldering is here


I have just looked at this and it is very good and I learnt some useful points. I thought is was sufficiently helpful to cut and paste the text into a Word document so I have it available for easy reference.

Tony Wilkins wrote:I have a low melt soldering iron


I have had some success using a standard 18 watt iron as long as you are quick. A long time ago I made a controller using a standard dimmer switch and socket in proper boxes with a lead attached which works quite well although I tend not to use it often. If you take this route you need to be careful to do the wiring correctly and if you are not sure don't try.

Terry Bendall

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Will L
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:10 am

Chas Levin wrote:Well it seems to, as far as I can tell: I've built quite a few WM kits and done it that way. The bit remains tinned (i.e. it doesn't crust over), it holds solder to transfer to the joint, it heats the joint easily, the flux fizzes as it should and the joints are strong. I realise I may be doing it wrong but it seems to work...
Given that I'm sure you know a lot of other modellers Will, and have worked alongside them (which I haven't), is it the case then that tinning with higher temp is the 'normal' way?

No I think that comes under the heading of "you live and you leans". I was working on the principle that it wouldn't take on untimed brass it wouldn't take on a soldering iron bit either. I've always tinned the iron with ordinary (188) solder and that works for me. You description shows you have a process that is working for you, so don't let me put you off.

I started my soldering career with a simple 25 watt iron that got used for everything, so of course it got tinned with ordinary solder and I've never had reason to change the habit. When I developed multiple bits it was because I wanted to suit the size of the bit to the job not the bit to the solder. As I learned how to solder white metal with a non temperature control hot iron I do tend to regard efforts to try doing it with a cold iron as a bit unmanly. My methods are pretty much as described in the R. C. Ormiston-Chant piece Keith posted which I would have read at the time. (hum... agreeing with Robbo, now that wasn't the common reaction at the time).

The key point I think is that, while I'm sure you can construct theoretical argument that says that you shouldn't tin the bit with one temperature solder and then solder with another as you will contaminate the solder and change its characteristics, practical experience says it doesn't happen enough to affect the results. (so long as you clean the bit before applying new solder of course)

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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:38 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:The bible on low melt soldering is here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/Robbo.htm
He does recommend tinning the iron with normal solder first. NB this is under soldering irons in the tools section near the end.


Thanks Keith, that looks a very interesting document and a very interesting site, both of which I'll explore later.
There aren't enough hours in the day to read everything I want to read and still get things done! :)
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Chas Levin
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Chas Levin » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:41 pm

Will L wrote:
Chas Levin wrote:Well it seems to, as far as I can tell: I've built quite a few WM kits and done it that way. The bit remains tinned (i.e. it doesn't crust over), it holds solder to transfer to the joint, it heats the joint easily, the flux fizzes as it should and the joints are strong. I realise I may be doing it wrong but it seems to work...
Given that I'm sure you know a lot of other modellers Will, and have worked alongside them (which I haven't), is it the case then that tinning with higher temp is the 'normal' way?

No I think that comes under the heading of "you live and you leans". I was working on the principle that it wouldn't take on untimed brass it wouldn't take on a soldering iron bit either. I've always tinned the iron with ordinary (188) solder and that works for me. You description shows you have a process that is working for you, so don't let me put you off.

I started my soldering career with a simple 25 watt iron that got used for everything, so of course it got tinned with ordinary solder and I've never had reason to change the habit. When I developed multiple bits it was because I wanted to suit the size of the bit to the job not the bit to the solder. As I learned how to solder white metal with a non temperature control hot iron I do tend to regard efforts to try doing it with a cold iron as a bit unmanly. My methods are pretty much as described in the R. C. Ormiston-Chant piece Keith posted which I would have read at the time. (hum... agreeing with Robbo, now that wasn't the common reaction at the time).

The key point I think is that, while I'm sure you can construct theoretical argument that says that you shouldn't tin the bit with one temperature solder and then solder with another as you will contaminate the solder and change its characteristics, practical experience says it doesn't happen enough to affect the results. (so long as you clean the bit before applying new solder of course)


Absolutely - variety being the spice of life and so forth! Anyway, thank you Will for the advice and apologies for taking up so much space with this subject on your thread, which is meant to be about a specific project rather than general soldering advice :) .
Chas

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Will L
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:28 pm

Chas Levin wrote:..apologies for taking up so much space with this subject on your thread, which is meant to be about a specific project rather than general soldering advice :) .

No problem, in any event I rather like comments and these little diversions, as they mean people are actually reading the thread.

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Buck Jumping on Mass - The Build Phase

Postby Will L » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:47 pm

Part 33 – Tank filler caps, having my fill…

I don’t know about you lot, but when I have spotted a detail on a loco which I know to be wrong, it sort of sticks in my mind and I just can’t avoid seeing it when I look at the model. One of the problems with doing this sort of blow by blow building account, and accompanying it with photos of bits of the model many times life size, is that you immediately see defects which perhaps might otherwise have eluded you. (Specially when your optician has started muttering about cataract in your right (master) eye and none of the lenses in your optiviser quite clarify the detail as much they used to. The opticians trip was to try closing you master eye, but it’s difficult to get your brain to do that comfortably or reliably).

Anyway, enough of my troubles and back to the plot. This sort of intrusive wrong detail is bad enough when it’s your own workmanship that’s the cause of the problem, but at least you know who to blame and it encourages you to develop the skills to get it right. It’s more aggravating when a detail provided by the kit your building is prominent, wrong, and difficult to do anything about.

So what’s the problem

On a real Buckjumper, the water filler caps, or more particularly the screw down clamp that holds them shut, are quite distinctive. They are fitted right at the front end of the tank top, and the screw down clamp is hinged from a plate that fits prominently on the top edge of the tank front.

To reproduce this small but prominent detail was always going to be a significant fiddle and I’m afraid the good Mr Rice bottled out on this one. The picture below shows the white metal casting which accompanies both kits, while the drawing (stolen I’m afraid from an article by Bernard Wright on Buckjumpers in the March 1972 Model Railways) shows what ought to be there.


Buck filler problem.jpg
Buck filler problem.jpg (101.41 KiB) Viewed 839 times

The kit pictured is the J69, on the J65 its worse as the filler was placed about 4 scale inches to far back. When I first did that loco, quite a while ago now, I satisfied myself with modelling the distinctive screw handle but placing it on the tank top surface. However further perusal of the GER society drawing and many photos enlightened me. How could I not fail to notice the distinctive hinge on the tank front. I wasn’t going to be satisfied unless I had made some effort to reproduce that, and the screw down clamp. The question was how would I do that. In an Ideal world, I suppose I should have crafted one master copy of filler cap, catch, handle and hinge and had it copied as a lost wax brass casting. But that involves skills and knowledge I’m not sure I possess. In any event I did have 4 perfectly good filler caps. What I wondered could I do to reproduce the rest, 4 times.

The thinking process continued for some considerable time, but one day, while having my morning shower, I’ve always done my best thinking there, light dawned and I found my self sketching a possible solution in the steam on the shower cabinet glass. The issues here are not just modelling the various parts but the perennial one of how you get something very small, made of several different bits of brass to stay soldered together while you add more bits, and without smothering the whole thing in solder you can’t then clean off.

Bits of an answer

The picture that follows shows the pieces of my solution. It is not perfect, particularly when much magnified, but I think it will pass muster at normal viewing distances.

Buck filler bits.jpg
Buck filler bits.jpg (80.42 KiB) Viewed 840 times


The bits are
1. The filler cap modified so that the lever that holds the cap down extends over the tank front and is forked so that it fits around the clamps screwed rod
2. A representation of the hinge to attach to the tank front from which extends a brass (0.35mm) rod unfortunately without a screw thread.
3. The screwed down handles which are the really fiddly bits.

Modifying the filler cap

This was the most complex part of the job to explain so I have illustrated the steps.

Buck filler lid mod.jpg
Buck filler lid mod.jpg (186.08 KiB) Viewed 839 times

The first picture is of the finished job, with a forked catch piece added to the white metal filler cap.

To make 4 identical copies of the forked ends, a strip of scrap etch was bent into 4 and soldered up into a solid chunk of brass.. A sensible chap would have made that 5 or 6 as the end ones tend not to be as good as the ones in the middle. The cut in the fork needs to be very narrow, so I did that first using a piercing saw and enlarging it to 0.35 mm with a fine reamer. The remaining excess metal was ground/filed away. Once I was happy I’d captured the shape I needed, the copies were un-soldered and only lightly cleaned up as the solder coat will come in handy in a minute.

The Filler cap had the incorrect catch detail filed away, and a 0.5mm whole is drilled into the body of the cap as shown. It is necessary to remember to drill down at a slight angle or the drill will break out of the top. Guess how I know. Fortunately, the natures of white metal and low melt solder are such that you can repair such damage.

The individual forked ends were cut to length, tidied up with a file and the tail filed round until it would fit in the 0.5mm hole. A small dab of white metal solder applied from the rear fixes it into the filler cap courtesy of that left over solder layer.

Hinges next.

The drawing in the first picture at the top of this post shows how the hinge was formed. I didn’t think that I could bend up anything that small and the T shaped screwed rod was going to be a problem too, so I approximated the shape. To make all 4 in one go, I started with two strips of scrap etch 3 to 4cm long. one no more than 1mm wide the second about 5mm wide. The 1 mm strip is layered along the very edge of wider strip and the two tacked together at the ends and in the centre with 212° solder.

Using the piercing saw again, cuts were made about 4mm apart along the double thickness edge, most, but not all of the way, through the thin strip. These cuts were enlarged so a piece of 0.35mm wire would fit snugly. Again I did only 4 but I should have made at least one spare. Small lengths (15mm) of the wire were fitted into each slot, with a bit of scrap soldered across the free ends to keep them together and in place while 212° solder was run into the joint between the thin and thick strips. My trial attempt showed that the round section of rod was clearly recessed into the hinge but this didn’t work so well in the bulk production as the solder tended to run unto the gap. In the end I decided to lump it.

Once the wire was firmly in place, strips 1.5mm wide were cut across the wider strip centred on the wires. This was done roughly using the piercing saw and then filed back to width. Then they were reduced in length to 2mm and the single layer end was filed into a V shape. Leaving me with something like this.

Buck filler hinge.jpg
Buck filler hinge.jpg (25.15 KiB) Viewed 839 times

Studying photos I think the hinges were riveted to the tank front but using counter sunk rivets which don’t show. I did wonder about pinning the hinge to the tank front with a single visible rivet, it would have made fitting then easier but in the end I decided against.

The screw down handle


These were formed from fine tube drilled 0.5mm across very close to the end. Drilling a hole centrally through a fine tube can be a bit tricky but if you hold the tube in a pin chuck and drill between the jaws of the chuck it is easy enough. The L shaped handle is formed from 0.35 mm wire threaded through the hole in the tube and soldered up solid with 212° solder. The tube was then drilled out 0.5mm and yes that means i have just drilled right through the wire handle. Lets hope the solder holds. The completed handle is cut from the end of the tube, with the piercing saw again, then put back into the pin chuck the other way round so you can trim back the cut end of the tube with a file.
Buck filler handle.jpg
Buck filler handle.jpg (20.82 KiB) Viewed 839 times

The finished article is shown here and this time I did make rather more than 4, as you have to assume the GCG* is likely to be feeling peckish and the chances of finding one of these once drop seemed slim. Cutting a completed handle off the tube stock was the operation most likely to see one vanish.

Final assembly

To fit the bits to the model, the first step was to fix the hinge assembly to the top edge of the tank front. It proved remarkably difficult to get these in exactly the right place as there were to many hands soldering irons and assorted bits of model in the way. Perhaps I should have pinned it after all.. They have to be soldered on using the 145° stuff to try and insure the hinge stayed in one piece. This works well so long as you get it in the right place first time and don’t decide you want to move it.

Buck filler assembly.jpg
Buck filler assembly.jpg (57.93 KiB) Viewed 839 times

Next up the filler cap itself is fitted into the etched hole in the tank top with the forked end around the hinge wire. This was OK on the J69 but on the J65 where the etched hole was too far back down the tank and had to be elongated about 1mm towards the front, Fortunately the filler cap itself was large enough to hide this butchery. Once in place the filler cap was soldered on from below using low melt. You will notice from the picture that the area round the hole had been pre-tinned in preparation.

Finally, the screw down handle is threaded onto the hinge wire and carefully soldered on using 145° solder. It was actually applied to the wire just above the handle and allowed to flow in.

I regret that I failed to model the little lump on the end of the screwed rod which was there to prevent the cack-handed from unscrewing the handle altogether. Sorry.

Heavy shy of relief



Buck filler finish j69.jpg


The final picture shows the finished job on what has become a very busy corner of the J69. This marks the end of the above footplate detailing and leaves us with the buffer beams and the remaining under footplate plumbing to go. The smokebox door is already detailed and ready to fit but like the crew this will be done as part of the weighting exercise to be done once everything else is complete

*CGC = the Great Carpet God
Edited to remove the image names which I put in the text when I write it and remove when I add the actual image. Only on this occasion...

RC 58238
Last edited by Will L on Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:38 pm

Will L wrote:I regret that I failed to model the little lump on the end of the screwed rod
And no screw thread either! :mrgreen:

You could always go back to it Will and apply a small lump of low melt solder. :D

Since I also like playing with small bits of brass to make what is required, I can appreciate the time and effort involved. :thumb Using a pin chuck to hold small pieces is a technique I often use.

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Re: Buck Jumping on Mass - The Build Phase

Postby Winander » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:47 pm

Will L wrote:The question was how would I do that.


Simple, ask Dave Holt ;)

Seriously, thanks for useful the tip about drilling through the doodah's on a pin chuck. It looks good and is a prominent feature so deserved attention.
Richard Hodgson


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