1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

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MarkS
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1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:04 am

This saga started back last century when I acquired a fully built Craftsman 1P 0-4-4T (in OO) with the idea that I could turn it into a P4, blue S&D version... That turned out to involve too much work, so I put it away for another day.
A couple of years ago I pulled it out and added some detail, and painted the body - still a 1P that ran on the S&D, but in LMS black with red lining.

P1050601.JPG
P1050601.JPG (264.54 KiB) Viewed 5875 times

I thought about rebuilding the original chassis (silk purse, pigs ear comes to mind) and was about to start a chassis from scratch when that nice Mr. Newitt announced he had a produced P4 sprung chassis for this kit.
Serendipity, and my order went out across the ether... A week or so later a package arrived here in Canada.

This shows the difference 40 years makes (Original Craftsman chassis side - lower), although for this photo I had only folded up the chassis to check clearances in the body. (Filing of the body will be required :() The new chassis has overlays which are attached later in the build.

P1050599.JPG
P1050599.JPG (302.09 KiB) Viewed 5875 times


My initial impressions are very good, the nickel silver etches are excellent, the instructions have a couple of minor errors, but there are photos which help clarify things. http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/LMS_1P_Chassis_Instructions_-_Craftsman_Version.pdf

I would suggest that you don't start with a finished, painted body like I have, especially if you want to correct the cab interior - There will be more work involved trying not to ruin the paint.
More to come...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:08 am

Hi Mark. I too rejoiced when I found out that Justin was going to do a 1P chassis and quickly ordered two of them. I picked them up at the Scale North show. Looking forwards to starting them and looking forward to see how you get on with yours.

All Best

Dave

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Le Corbusier
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:04 am

I shall also be watching this with interest as I picked up an unbuilt Craftsman 1P for the kit cupboard off e-bay a few months back.

Tim
Tim Lee

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:48 am

I was all excited about this build, figuring that as I had already built and painted the body, it should be fairly quick...
However, due to the usual summer excuses to avoid modelling, I did not do much with the kit until recently.

Then, needless to say, I soon went "Off Piste"...
First of all, I found that using the driving wheel bearing arrangement from the kit gave me sticky bearings.
The kit uses just the bearings from HighLevel, and not the "horn" - I measured the thickness of the chassis - .4mm, and the highlevel horn - .3mm.
At this point I could have spent time fettling, but I noticed that the chassis has holes that match the HighLevel horns, so I installed the full HighLevel hornblocks because they always give me good results. (standard at the front, spacesaver for the geared axle)
P1050752.JPG

Of course, this meant that I had to modify the keeper plate, and I removed the end former's for the ash pan while I was at it so that I could wrap some 5 thou brass around them. I then re-attached the ashpan to the keeper.
P1050751.JPG

I have otherwise been following the instructions, but I am trying to figure out how the bogie is meant to be attached, the instructions are not very clear and there is no helpful photograph showing what it is meant to look like.
However, the small bearings don't seem to be sticky, so I followed the instructions here.
The other thing is trying to find 2.5mm tubing in Canada, not easy when hobby shops only carry tubing from the Imperial USA... (and then there is the M2 nut and bolt...) I will have to solve the metric problem with an imperial solution.

Anyway, I am figuring it out slowly, and it fits into the body reasonably well... Not quite sure about the ash pan yet, it seems to hang a bit low.
P1050755.JPG
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:23 pm

Hi Mark,

I'll put my head above the parrapet as the one who comissioned Justin to do this one. Therefore, while Justin's main range items have brilliant instruction sets these take a lot of time to put together. I tried to photo document as I went along, but appreciate I seem to have missed a few steps.

Sorry to see you had issues with the hornblocks - I fitted standard High Level (not space savers) blocks into the test build and it runs well, I don't recall doing anything other than cleaning up cusps on the etch to fit them.

My photos do seem to lack the bogie assembly, I'll take some more and post them here for you. It basically ends up as the inner bolster, with the flat face upwards to meet the rubbing plate. This is tied to the main bogie frame with the CSB wires. The bolt goes through this assembly, then the swing arm, then the main frame. I found on initial build that without any side control it didnt quite run perfectly. Justin has a suggestion for side control in the instructions, I followed a different method as I integrated it with pickups on the bogie wheels and I am really happy with it now.

I'll be back with some photos...
Cheers,
Pete

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:34 pm

Hi Mark,

Hopefully these photos help to explain, though I appreciate I haven't fully taken it to pieces.

Starting with the bogie, viewed from above. The top/bolster piece, which sits inboard of the main bogie frame, has a U shaped piece inserted from below. This helps keep the screw assembly square in use (without it it goes floppy). Also can be seen are the vertical pickup strands (phosphor bronze wire) which double up as side control as they insert into tubes on the main loco frame.
20181119_211334.jpg


Bogie viewed fro below.
20181119_211159.jpg


Main loco frame, with the swing arm in place. Also in view are the bolt with tube section (this inserts from below) and the nut with washer soldered in place. The copper clad with pickup receive tubes (0.5mm ID tube) can be seen (the one on the rear isnt used, but I wasnt 100% sure my initial plan was going to work as well as it has to fulfill both requirements)
20181119_211357.jpg


Whole assembly together:
20181119_211423.jpg


This is an older photo before pickups etc, but shows the bogie from the side. I kept trying to assemble the bogie with the top piece the wrong way up.
20180328_214954.jpg


Hope these help,
Thanks,
Pete

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:31 am

Thanks Pete,
the photos help explain things. I was wondering how the top/bolster was kept in place (other than friction).
As to the hornblocks, that was more impatience on my part than a design flaw, I had a lot going on in my non-modelling life so I jumped to a fast solution, without thinking it through. With hindsight, I would have fettled the bearings more.
However, it still works so all I lost was a bit of time.

I have built up the bogie as per instructions and it works nicely, I just have to make up a tube/bolt and attach it - and thanks for the tip about side control, I like your solution, dual purpose, very neat.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

Lindsay G
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Pete,

The design of the bogie, how it attaches to the body, and the side play/electrical contacts all look great and really innovative - it's always great to see things being achieved in different ways. I've got a couple of home made sprung bogies for 0-4-4T's, the springing arrangement being not too dissimilar, but haven't been entirely happy with how I attached them to the body, and I haven't got around to looking at the pick up arrangement. Methinks I should have a look at the possibility of following your arrangement for both.

When you say you are "really happy with it now", is that in all aspects - electrical pick-up, how the engine performs running backwards around curves or turnouts, movement looks prototypical, and so?

Thanks for posting, and cheers,

Lindsay

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Thanks Mark, Lindsay,

Yes, pickups, performance and visuals all look good. The only caveat is whether long term the phosphor bronze wire is up to the job, but I don't see why it shouldn't be - it is guiding the movement of the loco rather than forcing it, after all...

I will try and remember to take it with me to have a run on Barrow Road at the beginning of next month, which should be able to result in a video or two. It runs very well around the pointwork on my layout. At S4um it also had a run on Burnham. At that point, the pickups were in place but the rear wheels did have a habit of not rotating at times. I had packed plenty of weight in the boiler and side tanks but none in the cab or bunker, so a little bit at the back end helps cure that.

It is my 2nd 0-4-4 - the first has a fixed pivot point and while it runs ok it doesnt like bends and does tend to swing the front end rather unprototypically. That bogie was compensated and pickups were split axle, with Alan Gibson sprung plunger pickups up to the loco, which worked well initially but do have a habit of sticking now.

Thanks,
Pete

John Palmer
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:21 am

This is an interesting and helpful thread for me, as I've recently obtained one of these chassis with a view to its employment as a replacement chassis for my first bogie tank. This is a scratch-built model of a 2228 class engine, which has significant differences in appearance from the 1532/1833 class engines of which the Craftsman kit is more representative. At the time of its building I only had drawings of the earlier class of engine, and it wasn't until I recently compared my model with the drawings in the Wild Swan profile that I was able to identify how far I had led myself astray, particularly as regards the cab dimensions. The engine was one of several failures we had at Scaleforum, so a new chassis, motor and gearbox seemed to be in order, as well as some tweaks to improve the appearance of things above the running plate.

My second bogie tank was derived from a Craftsman kit but mounted on a chassis of my own devising. For this I employed split axle collection on the bogie, by means of brass bearing shells (from which current was led to the motor) fitted into Delrin insulating muffs, which in turn were pressed into the bogie side frames. On a 5' 6" wheelbase I found no need to spring or equalise the bogie wheels and have had no problem with these running in a rigid truck which takes the weight of the engine's back end via a domed centre pin working against the underside of a bearing plate that also serves as a spacer for the main frames of the locomotive. The bogie pivots on a swing arm which in turn is pivoted from a frame spacer set midway along the firebox. Side control of the bogie is imparted by spring wire that is set into the leading end of the swing arm and constrained within a receiving slot so as to spring load the arm.

For the rebuild of my 2228 class engine, therefore, I'm open to suggestions as to how Pete's bogie design might be adapted to make it suitable for split axle collection. My initial thought is to use a paxolin block as the central frame stretcher for the bogie, but I suspect that attachment to such a block of the sideframes is going to be complicated by the presence of the CSB springs for the axleboxes. A way will also have to be found to insulate one end of each of the stretcher rods that link the bogie sideframes together at front and rear, but that shouldn't be difficult to accomplish by means of a couple of small insulating bushes.

Pete, it was a pleasure to let your engine stretch its legs briefly on Burnham at Scaleforum, and the smoothness of its performance was impressive. I only hope I can do as well with the new chassis for my 2228 class.

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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:19 pm

Thanks John, it was a pleasure to let it grace Burnham too!

The bogie design itself is Justin rather than me (thats for the sake of credit where its due, not slopey shoulders, I can assure you!) - and I think Justin suggested side control is the way you have previously done it John. My addition was the side control and pickups while allowing the bogie to be removed.

I was wondering early in the project when we were discussing bogie springing options about how to incorporate split axle pickups. At that point my 2P was the only running loco I had with unpowered wheels with pickups, and I was concerned by the drag of conventional pickups from preventing the wheels from turning. In between times I got the tender on my Bachmann/Brassmaster easi-chas 3F sorted out with wipers, and that worked well - so at that point I parked the split axle requirement.

I appreciate that it is a short bogie and in terms of staying on the track I agree that rigid is perfectly fine - but wanted it sprung for that extra bit of current collection and flowing motion.

I was thinking of having a play with the EM gauge bogie on the fret to see if I could arrange it for split axles and fit it to the 2P, until I remembered the 2P has a longer wheelbase bogie.

To summarise the above waffle - sorry John, I'm not sure!

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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:35 pm

Apologies for the delay - I was hoping to find time to remove the audio, but apparently Christmas is next week and time is running away... However I'm pretty sure nobody says anything confidential in the background, and it does show how quietly she performs!

This is my first Youtube upload so I'll be surprised if it works first time - I put it as public but unlisted so it should work! Ok, so the youtube bit doesnt seem to work but as a URL it at least gives a link to it...

https://youtu.be/7uOtIo3wc24

You tube bit added, it does work if you format it correctly. :)
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added youtube bb code

David Knight
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby David Knight » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:37 pm

Works just fine, very smooth with no distracting lumps in the motion. :thumb :thumb . That’s the engine and the video both BTW :D

Cheers,

David

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barrowroad
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby barrowroad » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:36 pm

Nice smooth running loco Pete.

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:44 pm

Since my last post in November, I have not been idle, a small amount has been accomplished, however this project went on the back burner while I cleared some other distractions.
The bogie was assembled and works very smoothly, and driving wheels installed. Motor and gearbox all work, and pushing the loco around with another loco shows a strong propensity to stay on the track despite no added weight being added yet!
The chassis sits below the floor (as it should!) leaving all that cab interior open to view.
I have built up a backhead, added a floor and have the rest of the interior to complete.
A full complement of drivers and firemen in various poses have been painted (a distraction!) and now wait patiently to find out what loco they will suit.

LMS 1350.jpg
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

John Palmer
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:59 pm

A fair bit of work remaining to be done below the running plate, but looking very good so far! The Craftsman kit does make a good basis for a model, but I still wish they had made a better job of getting right the proportions of the smokebox front and door. From memory, I think I also had to make some changes within the cab so as to shorten the tank length, as can be seen in the attached shot of the engine whilst still in primer and sans cab roof
58047 in primer.jpg

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:57 pm

Both are looking really good! I've just had a couple of etches back for some coal rails and things, of which I'll cover elsewhere in the hopefully not too distant future.

Who's lamp irons & vac pipes did you use John? Have you assessed the Alan Gibson smokebox door option, and if so is that any better? Lovely finish too - I presume it was airbrushed, looks far too refined for a rattle can?

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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:35 pm

Pete, the lamp irons are my own concoction from n/s strip, fabricated using the technique I described at https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5467&p=54305#p54305. Strictly speaking they are completely incorrect for the Johnson design of lamp iron, which features a round pillar attached horizontally to the bunker, with the 'L' of the iron proper being then attached to the pillar about two-thirds of the way down the vertical leg of the 'L', if you get my drift. Accurately reproducing those was too much for my meagre skills.

I think the hoses with swan necks were probably Mike Trice's castings, and very nice too. The dangling hose for the steam heat is, er, actually a turning from brass rod on which I have formed the square and oval flanges prior to bending to shape. Can't remember whether I warmed up the brass before bending; if you don't there's an obvious risk of fracture.

Yes, the finish is airbrushed Phoenix Precision etch primer. This was the second attempt after the disasters I touched on at https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4798&p=44852#p44822. I know there are those who swear by rattle can painting, but the airbrush gave me lots of control over thickness of coating applied, and I was glad to have persevered with the Phoenix product.

I didn't look at an Alan Gibson smokebox door, but considered and rejected as too small in diameter another white metal Deeley door which I think may have been a W&H product. The Gibson door for the Midland Number 3 Goods is commendably thin but too large in diameter for its intended application, and in any case too large for the bogie tank. If Craftsman had kept the depth of their door to that of the Gibson product it would have greatly improved the finished appearance, but still left it a bit too big in diameter. Because I substituted brass tube for the boiler and smokebox pressings supplied with the Craftsman kit, and fabricated a new smokebox front plate to fit these, I was able to improve the appearance of the engine's front end. But the fact remains that even after these changes the Craftsman door is too big and too deep. This is a shame because the proportions of the door and its locking ring are so critical to getting the correct appearance for this class of locomotive.

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:58 pm

Thanks John,

Agreed - I have a Mainly Trains etch of lamp irons which has quite a few options but none look right, and I also don't fancy my chances of assembling them as per the prototype!

I thought the uprights may be MJT, but yes it was the dangling hose which caught my eye - very effective!

I have seen really good finishes from rattle cans, but I do find them a bit thick so really need to get on and play with my airbrush. I'm not scared of doing so, just need to dedicate the time to it (and a few scrap/donor objects) once this project is at that stage.

Alan Gibson does have a 4'7" and 5'3" smokebox door listed, so in theory have it but I havent assessed it to see if it is any better. I'm glad I'm not the only one who couldn't get on with rolling the Craftsman boiler, I also replaced it with some tube! At least with Midland standardisation there is a chance I will use the rest of it one day...

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MarkS
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby MarkS » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:05 pm

John, you are correct, the kit is a great "basis, but..."
The tanks do have to be shortened in the cab, and the chassis instructions mention this as something to consider as you build the body. In my case I was blissfully unaware of this until I read the chassis instructions, several years after I had painted the body.
To rectify would involve damage to the paint, and I'm not sure yet how much it bothers me. Carefully placed crew might disguise it.
As to the smokebox door, I knew something was odd, but now it is clear about the size of the door.
I picked up a 15mm LMS smokebox door (for future build) from 247 Developments that appears to be the right size, but might need some refining.
Hmm, I might be doing a repaint after all... sigh.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:11 pm

I agree, when I was going through the project with Justin there were several times it might have been easier to start again - but stuck to the original remit as there are a lot of built bodies around.

If I remember correctly, the 2F boiler is about the same diameter (though I'm no expert, those had all gone from my areas of interest by my timescales of interest) and from the below the proportions of the Gibson option do look better...

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=1541879

Re the tank inserts, I think the inner bit is actually right, but is moved back as the tank is a bit off, so it ends up with too much in the cab...

Edited to add a link to the AGW Catalogue, see P12:
http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf

I think the relevant part would be 4M843 MR Deeley 4'7” boiler Smokebox door. There is also 4M635 MR 4'7” boiler Johnson Smokebox front, and I presume this is the lower curved section to meet the footplate? (cylinder covers effectively I assume).

John Palmer
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:25 pm

Oh dear, it appears I should have researched more deeply and opted for the Gibson Deeley door, which certainly looks better in the pictures on that linked thread. Possible the door hinge-straps are a trifle on the wide side, but in terms of depth and proportions of door and angle ring it's not bad.

The Gibson catalogue references to Deeley boilers are slightly confusing, because 4M643 refers to the dome for a Deeley 4' 7.5" boiler, whilst 4M843, 4M635 and 4M636 refer to 4' 7" boilers. I think these were intended to be references to boiler diameter over cladding sheets, but I wonder whether some confusion with wheel diameters may have crept into the catalogue here? Anyway, Vol.1 of 'An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives' contains a useful drawing of alterations made to the smokeboxes of the 4' 7" diameter boilers, including details of the door and angle ring. These indicate that in 4mm scale the diameter over the door should be 14.166mm, over the angle ring 16mm, and over the outer wrapper of the smokebox 19.708mm. The drawing also states that the door was dished to a radius of 8 foot 8 and three-eighths of an inch, but that doesn't help much because it doesn't indicate how far the door stood proud of the front plate – which is the major point of failure in the Craftsman product. These figures may help Mark assess whether that 15mm door will give an acceptable appearance.

I doubt that I shall now pull apart my 1532 class engine in an attempt to improve the door's appearance by replacing it with the Gibson item, but this discussion has prompted me to consider whether I might use a Gibson 4M843 door when upgrading my model of this engine, the defects in which have left me increasingly dissatisfied:
58086 door close-up.jpg

Completely off-topic, but for Mark's benefit: note the triple roman tiles on the roof of the mess room behind the locomotive!

RAO
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby RAO » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:13 am

The primer sprayed body looks excellent.

I'm currently building two, both in BR mid 1950's livery:-

58086 with a vacuum control regulator, the same as yours John. Where did you get the casting from or did you scratch build it?

The other is,

58072 with condensing pipes. However having started lining this loco I'm stuck in finding transfers for the front driving splashers, does anyone know where I can obtain transfers for these, I have the HRMS set but they don't cover this area? [My hands aren't steady enough to use a bow pen!]

Thanks for your help.

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PeteT
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby PeteT » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:02 pm

Whether it is what John has used I'm not sure, but Alan Gibson 4M757 is the right variant of regulator, and scrubs up nicely.

Sorry, I can't help with lining - 58066 was unlined by the mid 50s (but reasonably clean) so I've dodged that issue here...

John Palmer
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Re: 1P 0-4-4T chassis by Rumney

Postby John Palmer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:02 pm

Most of the components for the vacuum regulator are fairly straightforward turning and boring exercises, so the two I've so far made have been scratch-built. The tricky part to make is the trunnion/lever assembly projecting forwards from the top of the regulator valve housing. One day I'll manage to make one that is entirely to my satisfaction. In case it may help, here is a composite image showing two views of the regulator on 58047 whilst under construction; I improved alignment of some of the components later:
58047 Vacuum Regulator.jpg

I hit exactly the same difficulty as regards lining for the splashers of 58086, and in the end I found myself with no alternative but to line these by hand. I must have done this in about 1977 or 78, so I can't now recall in detail what my approach was, but I do remember finding myself with some excessively wide lines, particularly in the corners, and having to reduce the lining width by partially over-brushing it with black paint. If you approach the job that way, it is not necessarily fatal if your lining is initially variable in width. I am aware that the shape of my lining is wrong at the front and rear extremities of the splashers, making an improvement in this respect another of the tasks to be accomplished when correcting the other errors to which I have previously referred.

After the plaudits here for the Craftsman kit as the basis of a bogie tank model, it has to be acknowledged that plenty of changes to the kit will be necessary if it is to capture the appearance of a 2228 class engine: higher pitched boiler, shorter cab with deeper eaves, longer bunker and taller side tanks and bunker for a start.


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