Manning Wardle no. W1

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MarkS
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Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:32 am

Here in Canada, it appears to be Manning Wardle season - in my case, a CSP Models - Manning-Wardle "Q" Class 0-6-0ST Ex FY&NR/I.O.W Rlwy/ S.R. No W1.
So far I have been impressed, the etchings are excellent, instructions are understandable, despite being for this kit and the "Warwickshire" version.
This is the current state of play -
P1050321.jpg
P1050321.jpg (103.77 KiB) Viewed 8615 times
(The smokebox, chimney and boiler/tank are not soldered on yet.)

After using the High Level jig to locate the CSB fulcrums I solder the chassis halves together and cut out the chassis for hornblocks. This is the one weakness I found, these were not half etched, however, it was short work to sort out.
This shows the problem of sharing pieces for another MW loco, the front springs (which fold up) are not quite in the correct place...
P1050320.jpg
P1050320.jpg (106.74 KiB) Viewed 8615 times


The backhead is under way, but where everything goes is a bit of a challenge, I'm struggling to find photos...
That is one of the new High Level final gears, with a screw fixture
P1050322.jpg
P1050322.jpg (110.07 KiB) Viewed 8615 times


Next up will be soldering in the hornblock assemblies, this is my jig to keep everything in the right place.
P1050323.jpg
P1050323.jpg (109.08 KiB) Viewed 8615 times


I am modelling the loco as it was around 1930, in Southern green livery. The photos I have seen, seem to indicate that the saddle tank was black, with a green panel on the side. The rest of the loco is lined out in typical Southern livery.
This seems wrong, but a green tank with a lined panel doesn't make sense either.

Does anyone have any definitive (or even reasonable conjecture) knowledge/idea of how a Southern saddle tank might have been painted?
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

myoxall
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby myoxall » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:07 am

Hi there Mark,

Locomotives Illustrated No 149 , page 28 gives a very good representation, an excellent rear view is available on page 48 of MacLeod's Other Island by Terry Hastings and Roger Silsbury. I cannot find a picture of Medina, W1, with a black saddle tank, lined out green is the norm. The Isle of Wight Railways by R J Maycock and R Silsbury gives nice detail about the sizes of lining the Southern Locos on the Isle of Wight in chapter 13.

I have been looking at this Kit for some time now, as it is on my "wants" list. I will follow your thread with interest. Are you able to relocate the front springs easily?

Good to see another IOW modeller on the forum.

Martin

Terry Bendall
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:11 am

MarkS wrote:this is my jig to keep everything in the right place.


This seems a neat and simple solution. :) It would of course have to be adjusted to suit different axle centres but that would not be difficult.

Terry Bendall

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jon price
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby jon price » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:09 am

This looks good, and I agree with your assessment of this kit. There was clearly plenty of variation in the Q class. I am using it as the basis for the Wrexham Mold and Connah's Quay Q class, which also has slightly different axle spacing, and as Terry says modifying the chassis turned out (even for a novice) fairly straightforward, even though I only realised I had to do it after I had cut out the wrong hornblock cutouts: I blanked off the hornblock cutout and recut it. I am also finding it difficult to source backhead detail, and so I'm trying to deduce things from similar locos. I havn't completed it yet, but here are a couple of pictures for comparison (hornblocks not yet soldered in place).

PB140376.JPG

PB140373.JPG
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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steve howe
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby steve howe » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:21 pm

CSP is a new one on me, and I was most impressed with their range of industrials - well worth a look!

Steve

http://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/category&path=65

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:06 pm

Hey Martin, thanks for the references, but I don't have any of them! :(
The photo of 'Medina' in "Isle of Wight Album" by Kitchenside, looks like the panel on the side tank is a different colour than the top of the tank, but then it is a 90 year old B&W photo...

Is this the rear view you refer to? (from the CSP Models site)
W1 rear left side.jpg
W1 rear left side.jpg (56.11 KiB) Viewed 8442 times

This and other photos are part of the instructions, but they are photocopies, so a bit fuzzy.
I'm not unfamiliar with the SR livery (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=749#p4292), and I feel the tank should be green, but how is the side panel delineated?
Is it a green panel surrounded by a white line, and black border on the green tank?
The "usual" livery would have a white line between the green and black.
The other item of note is the front and back of the tank do not appear to be lined in any of the photos I have.
At least I have some time before I get to the painting stage...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 pm

This seems a neat and simple solution. :) It would of course have to be adjusted to suit different axle centres but that would not be difficult.

Terry Bendall


Thanks Terry, but since I don't build that many loco's I just drill new holes in the same piece of MDF with my drill press. 8-)
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:22 pm

Well Jon,
it was the post for your Q that got me to open the box, order needed parts and get started!
Yours is looking very good BTW.
I too am trying to guess what the backhead looks like, today I resorted to youtube!
I haven't found any "learn to drive a loco" videos using 'Charwelton' yet.
I'll make the cab roof removable, just in case!
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

David Knight
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby David Knight » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:53 am

Hi Mark,

I found a picture in "Isle of Wight, Railways Remembered" , Peter Paye, OPC. Plate 201, which supports your idea of a green panel on the tank. I can send you a scan if you like.

Cheers,

David

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:57 am

Hey Dave,
yes please, a scan would be great!
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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RobM
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby RobM » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:14 am

MarkS wrote:I too am trying to guess what the backhead looks like....

Mark, not wishing to put a damper on your back head but conventionally the rivets are not quite right... ;) The rivets you have put in around the edges of the back head are holding nothing, they should be on the wrapper. The bottom row of rivets are fine as they hold the foundation ring. Not sure either that the rivets above the regulator should be there....that space would be occupied with stays that were vertical running from the wrapper to the firebox, front to back. I don't think that you will see much of the back head though but a thought for the future but all else looking good....... :thumb
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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steamraiser
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby steamraiser » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:05 am

As Rob M says for future reference there would be a line of rivets around the edge of the back head where it is joined to the fire box wrapper.
There would also be square washout plugs on the bottom and higher up on the corners, as well as a mud hole door below the fire hole door.

Try visiting your local heritage railway on a non running day and asking to see the back head of a shunter and ask some one to explain the various fittings. The fittings varied by make and size of loco. Some locos only had one site glass, with drip taps.

Nice work.

Gordon A

Phil O
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby Phil O » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:00 pm

The backhead should be lagged and clad, to prevent the crew from touching the hot parts of the firebox only the external fittings being exposed. Glass gauges etc.

Phil

myoxall
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby myoxall » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:40 pm

Hi Mark,

The photo supplied by CSP models is the same one I referred to as being in MacLeod's Other Island; but the one in the book is a lot clearer, this is probably because the publisher has taken the image from the original and not just copied a copy. The problem with the picture is the way the light shines on the saddle tank. In the book you can just about make out the top black edge of the lining which leads me to the conclusion that the saddle tank was green with the smoke box painted black. Both sides of the saddle tank were Lined out with the standard Southern Livery of the time, Black outside, with thin white inner line framing the standard Southern Green Inner, the same style lining as your 02 Bembridge.

The picture in Locomotives illustrated 149 gives the definitive answer as it clearly shows the lining on the side of the saddle tank with the black and white lining above the handrail, at the bottom of the tank and at the front and rear of the tank. If you are unable to source the magazine please feel free to Private Message me with your email address and I will send a high resolution scan.

I have had a good look through my many books and publications on the Isle of Wight Railways and unfortunately cannot help you with back head detail. Have you tried the National Railway Museum? I have found them helpful in the past.

Martin

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steamraiser
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby steamraiser » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:56 pm

On the majority of industrial locos I have crewed the back head was not lagged but the firebox wrapper was.

Gordon A

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 pm

Private Message me with your email address and I will send a high resolution scan.

PM sent - Thanks for your help!

Rob, Gordon, in my defence, I was only following the instructions to emboss rivets!
That said, I can probably smooth (deboss?) the offending ones...

Getting to a heritage railway for me is easier said than done, being 6000 kms from the UK - the nearest UK steam loco to me is a terrier "Waddon" in Montreal... a mere 535 kms. My avatar, "Dominion of Canada" is there too!
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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steamraiser
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby steamraiser » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Fair comment.

Gordon A

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:33 pm

I found a photo of the firebox of "Warwickshire" - Pity the bunker is in the way.
warwickshire cab.jpg
warwickshire cab.jpg (46.55 KiB) Viewed 8152 times

Instead of getting on with my soldering iron, I found my colour pencils instead.
Lovely, isn't she?

W1 colour.jpg
W1 colour.jpg (245.6 KiB) Viewed 8152 times
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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RobM
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby RobM » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:00 am

Mark, the photo of the firebox sheds some light.....it shows the back head to be flat and the wrapper has been flanged. Is it an error in the design of the model?
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

Phil O
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby Phil O » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:41 pm

RobM wrote:Mark, the photo of the firebox sheds some light.....it shows the back head to be flat and the wrapper has been flanged. Is it an error in the design of the model?
Rob


Rob

The wrapper plate has a radius at the rear of the outer firebox and probably at the front as well and the back plate and probably the throat plate are riveted to it. Must have been a real sod to form a wrapper plate like that, as opposed to forming the radius on the back plate and throat plate.

Phil

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RobM
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby RobM » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:23 pm

Phil O wrote:Rob

The wrapper plate has a radius at the rear of the outer firebox and probably at the front as well and the back plate and probably the throat plate are riveted to it. Must have been a real sod to form a wrapper plate like that, as opposed to forming the radius on the back plate and throat plate.

Phil


Looking at Jon's model the front appears to also have a flange on the outer firebox but not at the back. Not knowing the kit but to me it looks like a design flaw (in respect of the model designer) if Mark's photo is correct. I'd be interested to know if one has to flange the plates, I've flanged copper boiler parts for a 3.5 gauge loco and a 2" scale traction engine but would not fancy doing it in thin brass.
If Mark wishes to make the model more like that in the photo then I would file down the rivets, remove the fire box door plate and regulator fittings, cut a new flat section, add the rivets by half drilling then use a rivet tool, and solder that to the existing back head and add the regulator fittings and firebox door. It just depends on what machine tools that Mark has or really just how much of the back head will be seen.
The simple way out would be to disguise with strategically placed loco crew.
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

Phil O
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby Phil O » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:15 pm

Ah Rob, I see what you mean the model has a plain wrapper and the curved piece on the backplate, but with the rivets are on the backhead piece.

Phil

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:26 pm

If it helps, here is prototype "Warwickshire's" boiler from the front, without the lagging.
https://www.svrwiki.com/2047_Warwickshi ... 160713.jpg

I think Rob is correct, the design of the model backhead is compromised, perhaps a casting would have been a better choice?
As to reworking the backhead,
The simple way out would be to disguise with strategically placed loco crew.
- I'm going with a well fed crew, strategically placed...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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RobM
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby RobM » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:52 am

MarkS wrote:......perhaps a casting would have been a better choice?
I'm going with a well fed crew, strategically placed...


Yes a casting would have been more appropriate.........good luck with feeding the crew.... ;)
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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MarkS
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Re: Manning Wardle no. W1

Postby MarkS » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:41 am

Not a lot of progress to report, but some research has allowed me to modify the tank before it was too late.
(Thank you to Martin and David for sending me helpful scans of prototype photos)

If you look at the prototype photo of the left side you might notice that the handrail is cut short at the front end.
This was where the Westinghouse pump was located in FYN and early Southern days, before being moved back closer to the cab. I used a brass pin to fill the hole which matches the prototype. (This form of OCD is known as "Getting it all right")
While I was at it I drilled & installed the handrails on the tank near the filler.
Medina progress.jpg
Medina progress.jpg (80.2 KiB) Viewed 7810 times

In addition the front springs were detached , moved forward and re-soldered in line with the front horn blocks.
(Horn guides now installed with the aid of the HighLevel jigs)

Still no luck with finding clear photos of a similar backhead, and my personal ignorance of the subject of what should be there doesn't help matters.
So I meander on, doing what I can do, while trying to figure out what I don't know.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."


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