Adventures in the third dimension

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Paul Willis
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Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:01 pm

Frustrated by my inability to produce a set of four wheels, each 6.3mm in diameter, with a steel tyre and lightening holes (a long story, for another time) from thicknesses of plasticard, I have acquired a new toy:

Elegoo Mars Pro.JPG


The fact that I spotted that a flash sale on Amazon meant it was roughly 20% off only served to push me over the edge into buying it.

Many, many thanks to Guy Rixon for advice on what to look for, the pros and cons and so forth. Also, there are a couple of really good threads on RMWeb that provide a lot of technical knowledge that I'm sure I'm going to need in coming months.

And I've just completed my first lesson in 3D CAD. Painfully slowly, with much winding back and forth of the YouTube video to copy all of the steps through the menus and actions, but I finally managed it! :-)

3D first design.jpg


Now I'm going for another glass of red wine and a lie down...

[EDIT: attached is a spreadsheet of costs. in case anyone is interested]

Cheers
Paul
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JackBlack
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby JackBlack » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:33 am

I've been thinking about this myself, will be very interested to see how you get on.


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Rod Cameron
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Rod Cameron » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:23 pm

"Now I'm going for another glass of red wine"

I thought that was the glass of red wine for a minute
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby martin goodall » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:43 pm

Que? Non capisco!

What exactly is an "ELEGOO MARS (P)"?

Call me an ignoramus, but I totally mystified.

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:52 pm

I'll be interested in seeing the results Paul.

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby nigelcliffe » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:53 pm

martin goodall wrote:Que? Non capisco!

What exactly is an "ELEGOO MARS (P)"?

Call me an ignoramus, but I totally mystified.


It is a 3-D printing device. That one operates by solidifying a liquid resin.

Personally, I'd have asked someone else to print the wheel centres for me. Such devices strike me as a bit like lathes and milling machines; unless you're using them a lot, they've a tendency to be a money and time pit. Particularly when adding the chemicals with fairly shelf lives and requiring careful handling and careful disposal.
( I own a lathe and milling machine, and am giving consideration to a "extruded plastic reel" 3D printing device. )


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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:43 pm

JackBlack wrote:I've been thinking about this myself, will be very interested to see how you get on.


Hi Nick,

Well, as things happen, I'll post them here...

In case anyone is interested in what this sort of home set up costs, I've added a spreadsheet to the initial post. I'll update it as and when I purchase things.

However, my plan is not for this to be an all-consuming hobby in its own right. Nor is it going to be an outbreak of "I've got a printer so I'm going to use it for everything in sight, no matter how inappropriate. I expect this to be a useful addition to the toolkit to be used as and when I need something as a one off.

The printer that I went for (and thanks again to Guy for sharing his experiences) is pretty mid-range. Not so basic as to be unsatisfying and rapidly put aside, and not so "bleeding edge" as to be constantly needing tweaks and upgrades to get it to a state of reliability. I'm aiming to make porridge that is just right...

Cheers
Paul
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:52 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:"Now I'm going for another glass of red wine"

I thought that was the glass of red wine for a minute


No, the red wine was very definitely needed to get me through the first tutorial! I'll be having some more tonight (it's a bottle of this, from Avery of Bristol, as it happens: https://www.averys.com/product/3753217).

There are many, many online tutorials for 3D printing. I've chosen to use, and therefore learn from scratch, the free version of Fusion 360.

A set of tutorials that I saw recommended were these: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO6U0E0fVTEm9RUQMRtKVKQ

They are both very good, and very bad! Very good, because they really are a step by step, click by click, demonstration of what you need to do. Very bad, because although the guy has a really good teaching style, he works through everything with the familiarity of an expert, and at full on talking pace. So there was a lot of clicking to pause the video whilst I hunted for the right menu item, and rewinding to see if he said right-click or left-click...

Despite the pacing flaws, I was really pleased with the first tutorial and what I could do. I'm going to do Lesson 2 this evening. With another glass :-)

Cheers
Paul
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:56 pm

martin goodall wrote:Que? Non capisco!

What exactly is an "ELEGOO MARS (P)"?

Call me an ignoramus, but I totally mystified.


As has been said, a 3D resin printer. The two main producers (think Ford vs Vauxhall, or Ferrari vs Lamborghini) are Elegoo and Anycubic. There is a bit of an arms race going on to produce more sophisticated, accurate and user friendly printers, and this is the point at which I decided to hitch a ride...

It works from designs programmed in CAD, and as you'll have seen from the photo, sits very happily on a desktop.

Cheers
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:59 pm

ginger_giant wrote:I'll be interested in seeing the results Paul.


Keep watching this thread Ian...

It will probably be a couple of weeks before I even attempt something. Rather than just set it up, bang out the supplied test pieces then leave it to sit whilst I learn CAD a bit, I'm resisting the Shiny New Toy thing and adulting about it.

Oh, and contemplating a workbench reorganisation so I don't have to keep moving stuff around.

I went as far as unpacking it to see just how much space it would need to take up. I did wait nearly a week to do even that though ;-)

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:06 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:Personally, I'd have asked someone else to print the wheel centres for me. Such devices strike me as a bit like lathes and milling machines; unless you're using them a lot, they've a tendency to be a money and time pit. Particularly when adding the chemicals with fairly shelf lives and requiring careful handling and careful disposal.
( I own a lathe and milling machine, and am giving consideration to a "extruded plastic reel" 3D printing device. )


That's a fair perspective. However, Shapeways prices seem to be eye-wateringly high to me, particularly if you just want to rattle off a set of four wheels for a GER platform barrow. In many ways, a bit like needing a couple of 2mm brass whistles and having a lathe.

As for the shelf life, I'll see what it is in practice. And if I find that it's a problem, I'll just run off a stock of (say) GER axleboxes to use up the resin.

I can understand where a filament printer could be useful if you want stuff like servo brackets making because it is much more "engineering" strength". That's not the sort of thing that I have in mind though (and I have a couple of mates who have those already I can ask for favours...).

Cheers
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby JackBlack » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:10 pm

At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?

I've been looking at the Anycubic printers and there's a significant price difference between 2K and 4K. A 2K printer I could probably quietly order. The 4K one would need further authorisation from the boss which may not be forthcoming at the moment...

Cheers, Nick


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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby garethashenden » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:45 pm

JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?

I've been looking at the Anycubic printers and there's a significant price difference between 2K and 4K. A 2K printer I could probably quietly order. The 4K one would need further authorisation from the boss which may not be forthcoming at the moment...

Cheers, Nick


In short, yes. Its definitely capable of it from a quality perspective and should be capable from a strength perspective. I'd be a little nervous about the strength of the buffer head, just because its so thin, but the body/housing whatever its called is fine.

For an example of detail quality, this is a N scale (1:160) bell tower I made a few years ago on an Anycubic Photon. The base is just about 1" square.

Image

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby nigelcliffe » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:21 pm

JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?

I've been looking at the Anycubic printers and there's a significant price difference between 2K and 4K. A 2K printer I could probably quietly order. The 4K one would need further authorisation from the boss which may not be forthcoming at the moment...

Cheers, Nick


Buffer bodies yes. Buffer heads, they'd print fine, and would break in use. So, printed buffer body, with a steel head would be my approach.


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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:25 pm

JackBlack wrote:I've been looking at the Anycubic printers and there's a significant price difference between 2K and 4K. A 2K printer I could probably quietly order. The 4K one would need further authorisation from the boss which may not be forthcoming at the moment...


One of the major things that I picked Guy's brain about was the current crop of 4K printers. These are the ones that I referred to as "bleeding edge".

There is one major plus point to them, as far as I could see - they are generally mono, so the light for each slice exposure is more intense, can therefore be shorter, and the overall build time less. Apparently about a third quicker vs a 2K model. But if you're just going to set it off in the corner and do some other modelling, that doesn't really matter.

The 4K ones apparently have larger build plates, so you can print larger models in a single go. <shrug> I want to do axleboxes, benches, wagon loads, that sort of thing. Not single-shot Pacific bodies.

And the *key* criteria of do you get a finer finish is "apparently not". Higher resolution in the X & Y axes works out roughly the same as the 2K ones because of the larger print area, and the all-critical Z axis is pretty much identical.

But the real downside to me that I have heard of the 4K ones is the fragility. There are parts that are film and not glass, and that means they are repeatedly tearing and spare parts needed. This *may* be fixed in future models, but I would be betting on a higher price when it is.

That's my thinking on it. The AnyCubic model that I was thinking of Photon Mono, which would have been about £75 more than I paid for the Mars Pro.

HTH,
Paul
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:35 pm

JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?


I forgot to say - this is Guy's Shapeways page of buffer bodies. https://www.shapeways.com/shops/guyrixon?section=Buffers&s=0

If you're curious about the level of detail, look at the lettering on the front of the axleboxes in this post on RMWeb. It's 7mm but still... :https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142773-anycubic-photon-and-mono-x-3d-dlp-printers/page/20/&tab=comments#comment-4311502

This is exactly why I bought one ;-)

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Winander » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:12 pm

Paul,

I confess to being tempted and did do some research a month or so ago. I came to the conclusion that I should learn how to use 3D design software first.

What software did you choose?
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:20 pm

Winander wrote:Paul,

I confess to being tempted and did do some research a month or so ago. I came to the conclusion that I should learn how to use 3D design software first.

What software did you choose?


Richard,

Fusion 360. I'd heard a fair few good things about it, and it looks at the "right" level of sophistication for what I want to do.

There's a free download for "hobbyists" (which also includes hobbyist-producers) at: https://www.autodesk.co.uk/campaigns/fusion-360-for-hobbyists

Although it says that it's for one year, even Autodesk give you the instructions for just renewing it at the end of twelve months...

I'm using the video tutorials at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO6U0E0fVTEm9RUQMRtKVKQ

I do have the 3D printing/laser cutting book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Printing-Laser-Cutting-Jeff-Geary/dp/0711038414/ref=asc_df_0711038414

I bought it a couple of years ago, but never really got into it. At that point, it was all a bit "abstract" as I didn't really have a focus. Now that I do, I'll be able to revisit it and make a lot more sense out of it.

Cheers
Paul
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby JackBlack » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:21 pm

Winander wrote:I confess to being tempted and did do some research a month or so ago. I came to the conclusion that I should learn how to use 3D design software first.


This is sort of where I got to. But now I'm thinking that having a 3D printer sitting on the bench might be the thing that motivates me to learn 3D CAD! I've been looking at lots of YouTube tutorials and to be able to design buffer bodies for example should be fairly easy I think.

Paul wrote:There is one major plus point to them, as far as I could see - they are generally mono, so the light for each slice exposure is more intense, can therefore be shorter, and the overall build time less. Apparently about a third quicker vs a 2K model. But if you're just going to set it off in the corner and do some other modelling, that doesn't really matter.

The 4K ones apparently have larger build plates, so you can print larger models in a single go. <shrug> I want to do axleboxes, benches, wagon loads, that sort of thing. Not single-shot Pacific bodies.


Okay thank you. That basically says everything I need to know! I want to be able to print tiny detail components for locomotives and rolling stock, and I don't care how long it takes.

I'll be watching this thread with interest...

Cheers, Nick


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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:00 pm

JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?


Yes. The buffers on my recent SECR stock were printed on a Mars Pro. The surface finish is slightly better than I can get at Shapeways --- less residual texture --- but the holes for the buffer ram don't print very cleanly and more work is needed to finish the buffer.

I find that one can easily print features down to 0.5 mm wide and features down to 0.33 mm --- e.g. ribs on buffers --- work if they don't stick out too far.

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:08 pm

Paul Willis wrote:If you're curious about the level of detail, look at the lettering on the front of the axleboxes in this post on RMWeb. It's 7mm but still... :https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142773-anycubic-photon-and-mono-x-3d-dlp-printers/page/20/&tab=comments#comment-4311502


Lettering like that can be done in 4mm scale, too :) Think of the numberplate on a LNWR wagon. The Mars Pro can print that perfectly legibly.

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby DougN » Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:33 pm

Paul, I will follow with interest. The idea of 3 D printing attracts me and by the sound of your unit and what Guy has written the definition sounds great. I will be interested in how you get on. I have to admit I just don't have the time at the moment to advance any of my ideas... the 1%inspiration is there it's the 99% perspiration is not available!
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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby JackBlack » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:09 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:
JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?


Yes. The buffers on my recent SECR stock were printed on a Mars Pro. The surface finish is slightly better than I can get at Shapeways --- less residual texture --- but the holes for the buffer ram don't print very cleanly and more work is needed to finish the buffer.


Okay, so you need to drill them out? Or just clean up with a broach/reamer. Either way it sounds fine to me.


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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:38 pm

JackBlack wrote:
Guy Rixon wrote:
JackBlack wrote:At this level would the quality be sufficient to print something like a 4mm wagon buffer for example?


Yes. The buffers on my recent SECR stock were printed on a Mars Pro. The surface finish is slightly better than I can get at Shapeways --- less residual texture --- but the holes for the buffer ram don't print very cleanly and more work is needed to finish the buffer.


Okay, so you need to drill them out? Or just clean up with a broach/reamer. Either way it sounds fine to me.


Clean the large bore for the ram with a 1.0 mm drill, removing maybe 0.1 mm from the edges. Drill the 0.5 mm bore for the tail from scratch, and ways to aid this were discussed under the "Making a specialised D-bit" thread in the workshop section.

If the buffers are printed at Shapeways, they need less drilling.

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Re: Adventures in the third dimension

Postby kelly » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:54 pm

An interesting thread. I have been thinking of getting a similar machine when financial circumstances allow.

Carl's videos you link to are some I have bookmarked for future reference. If you find his pace a bit too fast, then you may try to slow the video down using the YouTube controls.

Another great resource is the YouTube channel Bexhill west. Not a railway modeller, but looking at it from being trained in architectural design. He has a whole series of cad and 3d videos, and as he is a teacher by trade he has a good way of presenting things and the levels of detail in the buildings he's been making have been fantastic.
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