Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Clive Impey
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Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Clive Impey » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:02 pm

In the Great Eastern Railway Society John Gardener drawings is one of a J15 (L39) which shows the inside motion in detail. The J15 and E4 both had the same size cylinders and Stephenson valve gear so the basic motion would have been the same for both classes. Rumney Models J15 chassis kit has a very complete inside motion which is on a separate sheet : perhaps Justin would be willing to supply this on its own. The instructions for the chassis are on the Rumney website.

I have an AG E4 that I have not yet completed due to the under boiler gap that you have pointed out and also to the gap between the bottom of the smokebox door and the top of the casing over the cylinders. For the later smokebox door there should be no gap between the door bottom and the cylinder casing , there is a very small gap (about 1-2 inches on the prototype) with the earlier door. The gap on my E4 is 3.1 mm and you seem to have a similar one. I think that the gap is the result of a number of small errors that result in a dimension that completely spoils the 'face' of the loco. As for the under boiler gap this should be 2mm , on my loco it is 3.3mm.

What to do? Well this model has spent some years in the 'to complete heap' and I have decided that the only course is to construct a new smokebox and boiler to replace the existing one.

Clive.

Daddyman
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Alan Gibson E4 inside motion

Postby Daddyman » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:11 pm

Clive Impey wrote: What to do? Well this model has spent some years in the 'to complete heap' and I have decided that the only course is to construct a new smokebox and boiler to replace the existing one.


I'm coming to the same conclusion on mine. And that's in addition to the new footplate (none of the dimensions of the cut-outs were equidistant from the footplate edge, and the wheel apertures were not centred to the frames), and a replacement for much of the Doncaster cab, which is wrong in the Brooks drawing supplied with the kit.

I recently bought a S/H Hornby J15 to make resin castings of the boiler fitting to replace the AG ones, including the s.box door. But then that makes the smokebox look too small. It doesn't help that the Brooks drawing shows three different dimensions for the s.box diameter - side-on, head-on and in plan. I have an old drawing from Model Railways Feb '84 but that's not perfect. You seem to have accurate dimensions?

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Paul Willis
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Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) build

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:28 pm

Splitting a conversation in the Airfix 48xx topic into one of it's own.

I might even pick up my own build of the T26 some time soon.

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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:30 pm

Clive Impey wrote:In the Great Eastern Railway Society John Gardener drawings is one of a J15 (L39) which shows the inside motion in detail. The J15 and E4 both had the same size cylinders and Stephenson valve gear so the basic motion would have been the same for both classes. Rumney Models J15 chassis kit has a very complete inside motion which is on a separate sheet : perhaps Justin would be willing to supply this on its own. The instructions for the chassis are on the Rumney website.


Thanks Clive! I wasn't aware of that. I have another of Justin's GER chassis to build first, before buying any more for my unbuilt J15 kit horde. The spreadsheet of my gloat box is out of date - I think I have two Gibson kits, and a Nu-cast whitemetal one to build at some point...

Clive Impey wrote:I have an AG E4 that I have not yet completed due to the under boiler gap that you have pointed out and also to the gap between the bottom of the smokebox door and the top of the casing over the cylinders. For the later smokebox door there should be no gap between the door bottom and the cylinder casing , there is a very small gap (about 1-2 inches on the prototype) with the earlier door. The gap on my E4 is 3.1 mm and you seem to have a similar one. I think that the gap is the result of a number of small errors that result in a dimension that completely spoils the 'face' of the loco. As for the under boiler gap this should be 2mm , on my loco it is 3.3mm.

What to do? Well this model has spent some years in the 'to complete heap' and I have decided that the only course is to construct a new smokebox and boiler to replace the existing one.

Clive.


Hmmm... I'm going to agree with you on this! Since getting as far as I have - with the loco body basically completed - I've been thinking that the smokebox door was slightly too small. Mine is the earlier, dished, version as befits a locomotive in 1909. But that doesn't account for all the gap to the "piano front" on the footplate. Looking at the pictures in BRJ #4, on the prototype the two almost touch.

IMG_3664.JPG


So some of that gap is accounted for, but not all of it. The question really is where to the (various?) errors lie?

The boiler at the firebox end locates in a half etched ring on the cab front, so I paid particular attention to getting it level and parallel to the footplate. And a different diameter boiler wouldn't fit that locating point.

Pragmatism says I'm going to plough on with this one as it is. But I have another Gibson kit to build, and I'll aim to build that one from first principles...

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Paul
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Will L
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Will L » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:11 am

Flymo748 wrote:...
Clive Impey wrote:I have an AG E4 that I have not yet completed due to the under boiler gap that you have pointed out and also to the gap between the bottom of the smokebox door and the top of the casing over the cylinders. For the later smokebox door there should be no gap between the door bottom and the cylinder casing , there is a very small gap (about 1-2 inches on the prototype) with the earlier door. The gap on my E4 is 3.1 mm and you seem to have a similar one. I think that the gap is the result of a number of small errors that result in a dimension that completely spoils the 'face' of the loco. As for the under boiler gap this should be 2mm , on my loco it is 3.3mm.

What to do? Well this model has spent some years in the 'to complete heap' and I have decided that the only course is to construct a new smokebox and boiler to replace the existing one.

Clive.


Hmmm... I'm going to agree with you on this! Since getting as far as I have - with the loco body basically completed - I've been thinking that the smokebox door was slightly too small. Mine is the earlier, dished, version as befits a locomotive in 1909. But that doesn't account for all the gap to the "piano front" on the footplate. Looking at the pictures in BRJ #4, on the prototype the two almost touch.

Image

So some of that gap is accounted for, but not all of it. The question really is where to the (various?) errors lie?

The boiler at the firebox end locates in a half etched ring on the cab front, so I paid particular attention to getting it level and parallel to the footplate. And a different diameter boiler wouldn't fit that locating point.

Pragmatism says I'm going to plough on with this one as it is. But I have another Gibson kit to build, and I'll aim to build that one from first principles...


As I have one of these to do I was worried by this. The Kit definitely looks wrong. Quickly checking the GER society drawing but without being able to measure up to be sure, I think the majority of the error is in the frames extensions above the footplate. These don't standing high enough above the footplate and I'm not sure the shape at the front is right either. The cast piano front fits the frames in the kit so its just isn't deep enough. Also I'm not sure your smoke box door is big enough Paul. Fix all that lot and I think it will be looking more like the real thing.

Edward45
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Edward45 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:34 am

Firstly, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, the Alan Gibson kit completely omits the small splasher over the leading wheel. Secondly, no one appears to have mentioned Isinglass drawing No 457 for the class. Whilst Isinglass drawings are not always as sharp as some other drawings, No 457 has dimensions quoted that could possibly resolve many of the issues currently being discussed.

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Will L
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Will L » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 pm

Edward45 wrote:Firstly, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, the Alan Gibson kit completely omits the small splasher over the leading wheel. Secondly, no one appears to have mentioned Isinglass drawing No 457 for the class. Whilst Isinglass drawings are not always as sharp as some other drawings, No 457 has dimensions quoted that could possibly resolve many of the issues currently being discussed.

The GER society drawing (by Lyn Brooks in the case of the E4) also shows the omitted splasher, is dimensioned, illustrates the issues quite nicely once you've spotted it, and is already in my (and if I remember rightly Paul's) possession. You can buy the full GER loco drawing collection of drawings to download for £15, which is excellent value for money and will be on you PC in no time.

Edward45
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Edward45 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:54 pm

Will L wrote:
Edward45 wrote:Firstly, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, the Alan Gibson kit completely omits the small splasher over the leading wheel. Secondly, no one appears to have mentioned Isinglass drawing No 457 for the class. Whilst Isinglass drawings are not always as sharp as some other drawings, No 457 has dimensions quoted that could possibly resolve many of the issues currently being discussed.

The GER society drawing (by Lyn Brooks in the case of the E4) also shows the omitted splasher, is dimensioned, illustrates the issues quite nicely once you've spotted it, and is already in my (and if I remember rightly Paul's) possession. You can buy the full GER loco drawing collection of drawings to download for £15, which is excellent value for money and will be on you PC in no time.

I am fully aware of the GER Drawings, that have been available for many years, my disc is Copyrighted 2004. My only contribution was when I found that the late John Edgson had obtained a drawing of the original batch of 10 J65s - which had been long sought. I arranged for John Gardner to have a copy. Way back in the eighties when Iain Rice produced what is now the LRM kit the information was not available, indeed Iain told me that he had used the Skinley drawing! On the question of the E4 I suggested the Isinglass drawing simply because it has more dimensional detail quoted than Lynn's and would help with some of the issues that have been raised. Don't shoot the messenger.

Daddyman
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Daddyman » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:58 pm

Will L wrote:
Edward45 wrote:Firstly, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, the Alan Gibson kit completely omits the small splasher over the leading wheel. Secondly, no one appears to have mentioned Isinglass drawing No 457 for the class. Whilst Isinglass drawings are not always as sharp as some other drawings, No 457 has dimensions quoted that could possibly resolve many of the issues currently being discussed.

The GER society drawing (by Lyn Brooks in the case of the E4) also shows the omitted splasher, is dimensioned, illustrates the issues quite nicely once you've spotted it, and is already in my (and if I remember rightly Paul's) possession. You can buy the full GER loco drawing collection of drawings to download for £15, which is excellent value for money and will be on you PC in no time.


But the Lynn Brooks drawing is the same one provided with the kit, with the different s.box diameters? - and that began (or perpetuated) the myth that the cab fronts on the NER-area locos were the same as those on the Stratford when the latter's roofs were raised? (explaining why no correct cab front for the large-cab locos is provided in the kit.)

Should the boiler be 18.5 as drawings seem to suggest, or 18 as supplied with the kit? This impacts on the s.box diameter (21? 21.5? 22mm?) and thus on the s.box door. Hornby's boiler is 18.6, the s.box 20.6, and the door flange 17.7.

Any thoughts?

Clive Impey
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Clive Impey » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:16 pm

To sort out my E4 I have been using both the Lynn Brookes and the John Edgson drawings. With the Brookes drawing I have used the 7mm version . The JE drawing is useful as it has more dimensions. Two of the most useful ones are the boiler diameter which shows that the model boiler should be 18.6 mm and not 18-0 mm and the smokebox diam 20,5 mm not 19.0mm. On my E4 the boiler top is the correct height above the footplate which with the 18 mm boiler will be part of the reason for the large gap under the boiler.

Yes I did fit the splashers for the front wheels as well as the splash guard (?) to the rear of these wheels. I admit though that I used the F tank springs with the wrong hangers - will do better next time. In fact next time is here already the body is going in paint stripper followed by an assault by saws and a gas torch. New boiler to follow.

Clive.

Daddyman
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Daddyman » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:13 pm

Clive Impey wrote:To sort out my E4 I have been using both the Lynn Brookes and the John Edgson drawings. With the Brookes drawing I have used the 7mm version . The JE drawing is useful as it has more dimensions. Two of the most useful ones are the boiler diameter which shows that the model boiler should be 18.6 mm and not 18-0 mm and the smokebox diam 20,5 mm not 19.0mm. On my E4 the boiler top is the correct height above the footplate which with the 18 mm boiler will be part of the reason for the large gap under the boiler.

Yes I did fit the splashers for the front wheels as well as the splash guard (?) to the rear of these wheels. I admit though that I used the F tank springs with the wrong hangers - will do better next time. In fact next time is here already the body is going in paint stripper followed by an assault by saws and a gas torch. New boiler to follow.

Clive.

Thanks for confirming that. So Hornby got it spot on and their s.box door will be usable once I have cast it in resin. I have done the same as you - got the boiler height right at the top but with the wrong (18mm) dia., though I've managed to get the s.box up to 20mm (inner layer of thin-walled tube, plus two layers of 5 thou to go above that). Door still looks wrong on 20mm s.box though.

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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:52 pm

Edward45 wrote:Firstly, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, the Alan Gibson kit completely omits the small splasher over the leading wheel. Secondly, no one appears to have mentioned Isinglass drawing No 457 for the class. Whilst Isinglass drawings are not always as sharp as some other drawings, No 457 has dimensions quoted that could possibly resolve many of the issues currently being discussed.


This splasher:

E4 front axlebox 2.JPG


I'll make a note to fit it. The springs in front of it haven't gone on yet.

The Lyn Brooks drawings from the GERS have a number of dimensions on them, and I'm sure that the key ones that aren't on there could easily be calculated.

It appears that I was a bit naive in trusting the general proportions of the kit... Oh well, onwards and upwards towards the next one!

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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:55 pm

Will L wrote:The GER society drawing (by Lyn Brooks in the case of the E4) also shows the omitted splasher, is dimensioned, illustrates the issues quite nicely once you've spotted it, and is already in my (and if I remember rightly Paul's) possession. You can buy the full GER loco drawing collection of drawings to download for £15, which is excellent value for money and will be on you PC in no time.


Seconded heartily!

As a line society, the amount of reference material the GERS puts out is quite staggering. A lot of it is relevant primarily to the historian - board minutes and the like.

However, the collection of diagrams is something else, and I could be building from them for decades...

Have a look here: https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/home/sales

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Paul
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davebradwell
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby davebradwell » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:11 am

Pretty soon after starting to buy them, I lost faith in the accuracy of kits, although will admit there's been a considerable improvement since those days. I avoid the usual modellers' scale drawings which I regard as a form of censorship - somebody takes a real, reliable drawing, redraws it to our scale without it being signed as checked and in the process denies us all essential dimensions. Yes, some do carry a few dimensions which will have been copied off the original.

Yes, I have an extreme view here but it's the result of bad experience and, as far as I can see, if you take any easier route it might end in disappointment. Mr Flymo has just given a source for GER drgs so surely the best bet with these models is to go back to the start and get some numbers as has been suggested. You don't need to do a drg, just put the dimensions on a freehand sketch or even use squared paper but it's a real shame because the model shown has been nicely built. Surely the whole kit needs checking - you only have to divide the real dimension in inches by 3 to get model mm. That must be quicker than trying to measure from a tiny drg and decide whether the LH or RH side is correct as they're different and shouldn't be.

DaveB

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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby bécasse » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:05 am

While, basically, I agree with Dave Bradwell about the accuracy of "modellers" drawings (and their lack of dimensions), I would point out that works drawings are often erroneous too. In general they represent the draughtsman's (ie the designer's) view of how a locomotive (or other rolling stock item) should be built (although some GAs were prepared after construction as a hopefully more accurate record of what had actually been built), and the actual drawings were rarely used on the shop floor as a basis for construction as the men worked from dimensioned instructions, often using their skills to build things without necessarily measuring them. Rivetting is a particular case in point, but it was true of most work done in a railway workshop unless patterns were used (as they were for casting work and for marking out awkward shapes).

Daddyman
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Daddyman » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:21 pm

davebradwell wrote:Pretty soon after starting to buy them, I lost faith in the accuracy of kits, although will admit there's been a considerable improvement since those days. I avoid the usual modellers' scale drawings which I regard as a form of censorship - somebody takes a real, reliable drawing, redraws it to our scale without it being signed as checked and in the process denies us all essential dimensions. Yes, some do carry a few dimensions which will have been copied off the original.

Yes, I have an extreme view here but it's the result of bad experience and, as far as I can see, if you take any easier route it might end in disappointment. Mr Flymo has just given a source for GER drgs so surely the best bet with these models is to go back to the start and get some numbers as has been suggested. You don't need to do a drg, just put the dimensions on a freehand sketch or even use squared paper but it's a real shame because the model shown has been nicely built. Surely the whole kit needs checking - you only have to divide the real dimension in inches by 3 to get model mm. That must be quicker than trying to measure from a tiny drg and decide whether the LH or RH side is correct as they're different and shouldn't be.

DaveB

Wise words.... I'll end up with only a handful of usable parts from this kit, and one inevitably starts looking for drawings from which to fabricate the replacement parts.


I've had a look on the GER website linked by Paul, but it's not at all clear (to me at least) where the drgs are as there are so many locos drgs; could you give the title of the document, Paul or Will, or a more specific link? Thanks.

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Will L
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Will L » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:00 pm

Daddyman wrote:...I've had a look on the GER website linked by Paul, but it's not at all clear (to me at least) where the drgs are as there are so many locos drgs; could you give the title of the document, Paul or Will, or a more specific link? Thanks.


Download of all GER society Loco drawings available here
https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php ... a-download

The E4 drawing included in this lot is the Lyn Brooks drawing a copy of which is included in the Alan Gibson kit

davebradwell
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby davebradwell » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:46 pm

I did discover, while looking for a B12 GA, that GER drgs were difficult. Apparently someone "saved" a load of GAs (bought them) when the works were being closed and these have ended up as a detached collection in a museum in East Anglia - Norwich, possibly. Can someone take up this story, please? I can remember going through the NRM lists and not finding what I was looking for.

DaveB

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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:23 pm

davebradwell wrote:I did discover, while looking for a B12 GA, that GER drgs were difficult. Apparently someone "saved" a load of GAs (bought them) when the works were being closed and these have ended up as a detached collection in a museum in East Anglia - Norwich, possibly. Can someone take up this story, please? I can remember going through the NRM lists and not finding what I was looking for.

DaveB


Hi Dave,

I believe that this is the circumstances that you are referring to: https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/information/the-dupen-collection

At the bottom of the page is a catalogue of the drawings which were rescued.

The collection is (in normal times) accessible from the Essex Records Office in Chelmsford, although the actual access method is rather convoluted.

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Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:49 pm

Will L wrote:
Daddyman wrote:...I've had a look on the GER website linked by Paul, but it's not at all clear (to me at least) where the drgs are as there are so many locos drgs; could you give the title of the document, Paul or Will, or a more specific link? Thanks.


Download of all GER society Loco drawings available here
https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php ... a-download

The E4 drawing included in this lot is the Lyn Brooks drawing a copy of which is included in the Alan Gibson kit


Ho hum, that's another few quid that you've cost me Will ;-)

The updated CD of the Journals, and a couple of other bits and pieces just out of interest.

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Paul
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Daddyman
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Daddyman » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:17 am

Will L wrote: The E4 drawing included in this lot is the Lyn Brooks drawing a copy of which is included in the Alan Gibson kit


Thanks, Will. So not worth investing then (all I need is the E4) - too many errors and no dimensions.

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Paul Willis
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:14 am

Daddyman wrote:
Will L wrote: The E4 drawing included in this lot is the Lyn Brooks drawing a copy of which is included in the Alan Gibson kit


Thanks, Will. So not worth investing then (all I need is the E4) - too many errors and no dimensions.


David,

If the E4 is all you need, then the GERS diagram is fundamentally the same as the one in the Alan Gibson instructions. The AG document does have dimensions on it.

However, at least in my case, the AG document also is of poorer quality. For example, the splasher on the leading axle isn't visible, due to the print quality.

HTH,
Paul
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby nigelcliffe » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:35 am

Daddyman wrote:
Will L wrote: The E4 drawing included in this lot is the Lyn Brooks drawing a copy of which is included in the Alan Gibson kit


Thanks, Will. So not worth investing then (all I need is the E4) - too many errors and no dimensions.


You can have just the E4 drawing for under a pound. So, a better copy than the one in the Gibson kit package.

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php ... nder-locos

- Nigel

Daddyman
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Re: Alan Gibson GER T26 (E4) kit build

Postby Daddyman » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:32 pm

Thanks to both. I got the 7mm version of the Brooks drawing, just in the interests of clarity.


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