Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:49 pm

Winander wrote:Mark,

The quoted "excellent filling abilities" of this product indicate it is thick - I assume not so thick to deter you from using it, but how does it compare to other products. I ask as it's a little expensive to have a punt at.

thanks


Hi Richard

I spray it on (I use cellulose thinners).

I guess it could be a bit thick if it were brushed on, but given it is an undercoat so only gets a pretty thin coat, I don't find it an issue.
Mark Tatlow

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Paul Willis
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:34 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:The aluminium oxide is not too expensive if bought in reasonable quantity; pots the size of yours are not quite so realistic!


Well, as that was a freebie starter with the kit, I'm not so bothered. And yes, looking to the future, buying a kilo from eBay is only a little more expensive than buying 100g. I'll be doing that when this runs out.

Mark Tatlow wrote:And you need to put this through your ultrasonic tank before going to the next stage for a good long shake as the grit does get into nooks and crannies.


I didn't think to drag the ultrasonic bath out, but it did get a very good scrubbing under the running tap with a toothbrush. That seemed to do the trick.

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Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:38 am

Enigma wrote:I always cut the springs off etched chassis to make life a lot easier while constructing them.... A copper-clad keeper plate doubling as a pick-up base holds everything in place.


Paul,

I'm being more and more tempted to try this "keeper plate" idea. It looks to have a number of advantages, and no strong disadvantages.

I must remember to try it on the next locomotive that I start building - I have another two after the 48xx as work in progress that I must get finished first. Both of them have stalled at the chassis stage - I really have trepidation about that!

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Paul
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DougN
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby DougN » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:55 am

Your right Paul. I really should think about upgrading the compressor... then again I do now own another 2 compressors but they are for driving nail guns which no one uses now!

Modelling has been off the agenda due to other things recently. I hope to get back to the V2's but it will be at least another month until some modelling time is cleared.
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:26 am

I thought I would show you how I fitted the pickups. Chris provides holes for sprung ones which I won't use. Because there is so much 'gubbins' under the chassis fitting wire ones was a bit of an excercise but I worked it out in the end! On this loco the keeper plate method won't work because of all the brake fittings etc.

I fitted one set at the rear to bear on rear drivers and trailing wheel treads from above. Copper clad pads stuck to the top of the sandboxes.

14xx rear pickups.A.jpg
14xx rear pickups.A.jpg (381.83 KiB) Viewed 1800 times


Coiled wires for the front wheels from below. Copper clad sleeper stuck across the frames under the second brake stretcher.

14xx front pickups.2.A.jpg
14xx front pickups.2.A.jpg (500.37 KiB) Viewed 1800 times


I think I linked them together so that only one lead went to each side of the motor. Hope this may be of use to you!

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Tim V
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Tim V » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:13 pm

For primer, I've been using Upol Acid 8 which I get from Halfords. It's a 1K acid etch, very fine. A lot better than any 'model' primer I have use.

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/paint ... 41124.html
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Paul Willis
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:57 am

Enigma wrote:I thought I would show you how I fitted the pickups.


Morning Paul,

Thanks for that - it's going to be useful when I come to the final stages. And I need to fit a DCC chip in somewhere as well, and possibly a stay-alive capacitor... All good fun.

After grit-blasting the chassis, it was time to prime it. As I still have plenty in stock, I'm still using a Precision two-part black etch primer, applied with a brush. I may move to one of the recommended aerosols when this is used up, but that's for the future.

48xx primed chassis.JPG


In case you're wondering, my 48xx hasn't suddenly gained a set of extra driving wheels. They are for my Y14, which I'll be re-wheeling at some point in the future as I've never managed to get the original set of Gibson wheels to run truly.

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Paul
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steve howe
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby steve howe » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:54 am

Its very ingenious how Chris has designed the brake gear to drop out easily by withdrawing a couple if wires. I first encountered it with the Pug chassis, very clever! all power to the Wizard of Wearside :thumb

Steve

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Paul Willis
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:15 am

steve howe wrote:Its very ingenious how Chris has designed the brake gear to drop out easily by withdrawing a couple if wires. I first encountered it with the Pug chassis, very clever! all power to the Wizard of Wearside :thumb


Indeed... Having built the Coffeepot, it amazed me how many individual etched parts he could fit into a very small locomotive!

However, as the next couple of instalments will reveal, I did hit a couple of "gotchas" when it came to build the gearbox. Nowhere near fatal, but a bit head-scratching until I resolved them.

More next time,
Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:58 pm

I mentioned earlier that there were a couple of "gotchas" with the gearbox assembly. Or at least with my construction of it. This is the first of them. It's a rather picture heavy post, as I want to illustrate the snags that I had, and how I got around them.

The first one is due entirely to my own stupidity! But it might be educational as a way to get out of a hole.

Having reamed out all the holes and soldered up the gearbox, I followed the instructions, and attached it to the front of the motor (having double checked twice which end was the shaft I was going to grind off!). Having started to tighten the tiny screws (I must buy some more from Chris when his business returns from furlough), I could only get one of them part way in, and the second one not at all. This is where the obstruction was, from a couple of different angles:

48xx gearbox mount (1).JPG


48xx gearbox mount (2).JPG


Taking the gearbox away again, it seemed that there wasn't enough clearance at the edge of the open area for the screw to sit down squarely. The problem is in the area marked with the red circle:

48xx gearbox mount (3).JPG


So faced with such a problem, I did the only thing possible, and attacked it with a file. Not a gurt big one in this case, but a fine needle file as I needed to get into quite a small space:

48xx gearbox mount (4).JPG


The result was a notch that meant that I could have room to get the screw head to sit down properly. Of course, I had to do this on both sides:

48xx gearbox mount (5).JPG


Finally, I was able to get the gearbox properly mounted to the front of the motor, and sitting down squarely:

48xx gearbox mount (6).JPG


48xx gearbox mount (8).JPG


The final proof was in making sure that the motor shaft with the worm in place on it was exactly central in the hole in the front of the gearbox:

48xx gearbox mount (7).JPG


And all was good with the world. So why did I have this problem in what is normally such a well designed kit?

The answer is that I used the wrong gearbox faceplate. The kit provides for two - one for the 1224/1424 motors and one for the larger 1624 motor.

I had mis-remembered (and forgotten to remeasure) which motor I had. I even crossed through the section of the instructions referring to the 1624 and giving the correct part number. I'd inadvertently selected the smaller faceplate, which of course didn't fit until I made it so.

The moral of the story: of course, measure twice, cut once. Or measure twice, and choose the correct bit of the instructions! The good thing is that once the next "gotcha" was out of the way, everything is running beautifully with the motor and gearbox. More of that next time.

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Paul
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:56 am

A few days without any updates, as I've put modelling and the Forum to one side whilst doing a major rearrangement in my study to accommodate the 3D printer. It now all works well, and I'm looking forward to resuming projects.

There was one more slightly odd thing about putting the gearbox of the 48xx together. Like the previous post, this may be something that I did wrong, or it may be down to my selection of components - I bought the chassis kit a couple of years ago, and I can't remember if I was offered a choice of gear ratios or not.

The instructions say that you should fasten the gearbox "box" to the front of the motor, and then put the gears in place and hold them with the gear-axles. When I came to do this with the first gear wheel, I couldn't get it to fit:

Gear wheel (1).JPG


No matter what approach and angle I tried, I had no success. So I did the obvious and simple thing, and took the gearbox off the motor. Again. After the mistakes and modifications that I'd made at the previous stage, I was getting slightly fed up of tiny screws and jewellers' screwdrivers...

But taking one step back to go two steps forward was definitely the way for it to work:

Gear wheel (2).JPG


Gear wheel (3).JPG


Gear wheel (4).JPG


As is my usual practice, the axles in the gearbox are secured with a touch of thick superglue. Don't try the thin stuff, or it will run everywhere and lock your gearbox and motor solid. That's not a DAMHIK, but it's something that I would almost certainly do.

The use of Slo-Zap applied with the end of a cocktail stick works perfectly, and creates a strong bond that (between a couple of metal surfaces like this) can be broken if necessary with some reasonable force. It works for me, and is much safer in my view than soldering the axle ends.

So now, finally, the chassis build is pretty much at an end, and on to the painting :-)

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Paul
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:50 am

So, onto the final preparations before assembling the running chassis begin.

There is no fanciness with the wheels - just plain black, and no colour or lining. So I think that it was Jim S-W who pointed me in the direction of the Games Workshop Citadel black primer.

Nattily entitled "Chaos Black", it's great stuff. Well, a million Orcs and Stormtroopers can't be wrong.

IMG_7498.JPG


I'd previously used etch primer on the front faces of the tyres to give the black spray some extra chance to stick. This is halfway through polishing the black paint off the running surface of the tyre. This was done with the trusty glassfibre brush. Thanks to the combination of etch primer and leaving the wheels for a couple of days (you can see why my builds take so long) to harden fully, the paint came off without any chipping or flaking from the faces.

IMG_7497.JPG


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Paul
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Philip Hall
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:11 am

I always chemically blacken (with an etch marker pen for Ultrascale wheels, Super Blue for steel tyres) the front face of wheels. If the paint subsequently flakes off it's then not very obvious. For paint I use a few passes of Humbrol Gunmetal 53, Tamiya Rubber Black and a mid brown, all from cans. That mixture matches the way I do the subsequent brush weathering on body and chassis.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 am

Hobby Holidays metal black for me as it works on most metals, very good on AG tyres.. I use nail varnish to fix gear axles ends in HL boxes. I find a fetching shade of Cherry Red to be the best with Rose Pink a close second................. ;) Easy to pick off if you need to dissassemble.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:54 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I always chemically blacken (with an etch marker pen for Ultrascale wheels, Super Blue for steel tyres) the front face of wheels. If the paint subsequently flakes off it's then not very obvious.


I must admit, you must have the Magic Formula. I've tried each of these from time to time, and none of them seem to work successfully for me. Either the blackening flaking off, or uneven cover, or a highly unrealistic glossy finish.

Metal Blacks.JPG


So I tend to use etch primer and paint, and it seems to work well.

Philip Hall wrote:For paint I use a few passes of Humbrol Gunmetal 53, Tamiya Rubber Black and a mid brown, all from cans. That mixture matches the way I do the subsequent brush weathering on body and chassis.


The weathering on these is yet to come... It will be with brushes, but not dissimilar to your recipe.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:56 pm

Enigma wrote: I use nail varnish to fix gear axles ends in HL boxes. I find a fetching shade of Cherry Red to be the best with Rose Pink a close second................. ;) Easy to pick off if you need to dissassemble.


I've mentioned it before, but I use clear nail varnish to secure crankpin nuts. Just the right combination of stiction and breakability.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby davebradwell » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:14 am

.....and I've mentioned before that if you have to stick your nuts on I reckon there's something wrong. It's in Ricey's chassis book, too.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:42 am

davebradwell wrote:.....and I've mentioned before that if you have to stick your nuts on I reckon there's something wrong. It's in Ricey's chassis book, too.


- in theory, I agree with you Dave.

- in practice, why take the risk?

It's an extra measure of security, is visually unobtrustive nay invisible, and if it stops one occasion in a thousand where a nut works loose for whatever reason and bends a rod/disturbs the quartering, then it's worth it.

To *not* do it is the equivalent of saying "I'm a safe driver, so I'm not putting on a seatbelt".

YMMV,
Paul
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby davebradwell » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:35 am

It is, of course, good practice to lock all threaded fasteners, particularly those on moving parts. So, if you must, perhaps wait until a running-in period has elapsed as the nut coming loose is a sign that it is pinching the rod, perhaps only on corners, and will be causing a slight bind. My locos used to run regularly, some at mainline speeds and I've never had a nut come off in about 40 years. Return cranks are a different matter but I now use a tapped crankpin and these stay on without locking - or have so far.

I see it as more like putting 2 seatbelts on.

DaveB

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Will L
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Will L » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:55 am

Paul Willis wrote:
davebradwell wrote:.....and I've mentioned before that if you have to stick your nuts on I reckon there's something wrong. It's in Ricey's chassis book, too.


- in theory, I agree with you Dave.

- in practice, why take the risk?

It's an extra measure of security, is visually unobtrustive nay invisible, and if it stops one occasion in a thousand where a nut works loose for whatever reason and bends a rod/disturbs the quartering, then it's worth it.

To *not* do it is the equivalent of saying "I'm a safe driver, so I'm not putting on a seatbelt".

YMMV,
Paul

I'm with Dave. If you have the crankpin bush the right length, i.e. giving a little clearance over the rods, you can screw the crankpin nut down hard and it wont come undone. If it does then the rod is binding against it and the search for a free running chassis means you need to do something about it. Screwing them down hard should also ensure the crankpin can't be/become loose in the wheel, again a with poor running issue which needs attention. So I would say one coming undone is a warning that you need to do something and if you want an analogy sticking them down is equivalent to silencing a warning buzzer.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:57 pm

In my experience there can be a problem in that the AG bushes are not always a close fit on the pin and if tightened, eccentricity can occur which could cause binding. To obviate the possibility of this I just run the 'nut' down until it just touches the end of the bush (which has been filed down to just protrude through the hole in the rod), snip off the excess pin length, file smooth and then apply a small dab of varnish. Works for me and has done for many years - but then I don't run expresses at speed and wear seems to be minimal even on locos I've had for 30 years or more.

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby davebradwell » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:23 pm

The clearance just sounds rather unsatisfactory and you've got variable stroke and quartering - it just adds to the general slogger. It's a good recommendation for the Ultrascale type of crankpin. Have you got an old batch of bushes as on the odd occasions I've used them they've been ok?

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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:11 pm

I don't have any 'slogger' (whatever that is?) and the chassis all run fine and smooth. I'll do it my way - which has worked for 40 years of P4 modelling - and you do it yours.

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Philip Hall
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:51 pm

Not only are some of the AG bushes sloppy on the crankpin screw, I get a few which are not concentric. Sometimes also the screws have a shallow thread on them, so they don’t cut a proper thread in the wheel. I usually have some spares, so I chuck out the rogues and use the good ones. The best solution though, as Dave says, is to use modified Ultrascale crankpins and 14BA screws.

I’m afraid I am one of those who secure the crankpin nuts on crankpins with a tiny touch of retainer. My belt and braces reasoning is that most of my engines go to new homes and I’d rather not have someone coming back with an engine that has tied itself in knots because something has come loose over time.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Will L
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Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Will L » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:47 pm

Philip Hall wrote:...I’m afraid I am one of those who secure the crankpin nuts on crankpins with a tiny touch of retainer. My belt and braces reasoning is that most of my engines go to new homes and I’d rather not have a customer coming back with an engine that has tied itself in knots because something has come loose over time.

I cant help feeling that building a relatively few locos which you then run regularly over time, particularly at exhibition, produces a different set concerns to those who build lots but say goodbye to most of them.


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