Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:30 pm

Tim V wrote:
Paul Willis wrote:
Tim V wrote:Somewhere I have a schedule of handrail sizes, can I find it now?


On the laptop or carbon-based record?
Paul

It was on a piece of paper stuck on the wall by my workbench. It has disappeared. After much searching through GWSG magazines, here it is (GWSG Newsletter Spring 2008).


Thanks Tim - duly downloaded and saved to the hard drive, with you as the source.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:29 pm

Well, I'd like to start this post by saying how utterly humbled I was to find that part of this 48xx build story appeared in the Society presentation for the Virtual Warley Show this morning. Thanks to those who included it, and for an excellent production overall. I hope that it attracts more modellers towards a finescale approach, whether that is in P4, EM or other scales/gauges.

And so back to the story of reinstating the detail that I've taken off the original Airfix model. For this, I'm referencing the original detailing article by Iain Rice all the way back in MRJ no.1. Iain had an understandable particular thing about the "face" of the locomotive. He described the incorrect chimney and smokebox door as like "IKB minus stovepipe hat and cigar". Yet he missed out what is, to me, almost as obvious a facial feature. Allow me to show you...

This is the model out of the box. I didn't have one of my own locomotive before I dismantled it, so this is stolen and cropped from Hattons' website:

Hattons 14xx original handrail.png
Hattons 14xx original handrail.png (305.83 KiB) Viewed 1904 times


I assume that, like the smokebox door, it was originally specified from the Roche drawing published in one of his volumes of locomotive drawings:

Roche front end.JPG


Unfortunately, with the semi-circular shape prescribing a circle on the same centre of the door dart, and the squared off corners going away sideways, it bears no resemblance to the prototype. This is on a much larger arc, and runs to the point at which the handrail runs backwards down the side of the smokebox.

Wikipedia 14xx front end.png
Wikipedia 14xx front end.png (399.11 KiB) Viewed 1904 times


I admit, I didn't spot this immediately. I planned to use the original handrail, with replacement Alan Gibson handrail knobs for a finer effect:

Smokebox rail (1).JPG


This is the trial fitting:

Smokebox rail (2).JPG


Smokebox rail (3).JPG


And at that point I realised that it simply didn't look right, when I checked it against the photos. There is no easy way to use rolling bars or similar to produce such an arc of the right length, and then have the straight lengths to bend back along the smokebox sides. So I did it the old-fashioned way, tweaking it a bit at a time with my fingers, and then when the arc looked correct, bending the ends back using snipe-nosed pliers to make a sharp bend. I don't think it turned out too badly:

Smokebox rail (5).JPG


Smokebox rail (6).JPG


Viewed from above, it's not quite parallel along the boiler, in part due to the slightly different lengths of the Gibson handrail knobs compared to the differences in diameter between the smokebox and the boiler.

Smokebox rail (7).JPG


But it's close enough. I may have a final tweak at how it looks from above prior to painting it, but I've very pleased to now have something that looks much more like the real thing.

Cheers,
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:02 am

The next step that I have taken is also one that I don't think I've seen done elsewhere. But again, it is something that caught my eye.

It's the overhang of the cab roof at the front. After removing the whistle shield, as it's not needed on the prototype I'm modelling at the date I am aiming for, I looked at the roof temporarily positioned back in place. As ever, I forgot to take a "before" picture, so these couple are once again stolen from Hatton's website:

Hattons 14xx 2 (2).jpg
Hattons 14xx 2 (2).jpg (50.57 KiB) Viewed 1714 times


Hattons 14xx (2).jpg
Hattons 14xx (2).jpg (58.36 KiB) Viewed 1714 times


What they show is what caught my eye - that the roof is much thicker (understandable, as it's moulded plastic) and with a bigger overhang than seems apparent on the prototype:

4851-exeter.jpg


The modification was very simple. I used a Mark 1 eyeball to determine the extent necessary to remove to make it "look right", and then with a steel rule and a new scalpel blade, cut a thin slice from the front of the roof moulding:

IMG_6795.JPG


Popped temporarily back in place, I think that the roof now looks the part:

IMG_6794.JPG


I realise that ideally I'd replace the whole roof with a cut and shaped brass sheet of the appropriate thickness. However, that would mean also building up the front and rear of the cab itself to restore the roof to the correct height, to compensate for the loss of thickness, and thus height. All rather a lot of work for what is, in my broader modelling, an enjoyable sideshow away from my main interests - I don' see a GWR BLT appearing in my world in the near future...

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Daddyman
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Daddyman » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:03 am

I can't see from the photo if you've restored the thin lip where the roof overhangs on the prototype. If you have, then ignore this. But if not, one thing I did years ago on the Hornby D49, which has no roof overhang on the cab front, was to skim a 10-thou strip off the leading 5mm or so of the roof top, so that I could then embed a 6mm-strip of 10 thou in it; this could be blended into the expanse of the roof, and gave the correct overhang at the front; it was also stronger than a strip simply tacked on to the front of the cab. I don't know your prototype, but it looks like you might have to restore details such as rain strips if you took the course of action I've recommended.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:29 pm

Daddyman wrote:I can't see from the photo if you've restored the thin lip where the roof overhangs on the prototype. If you have, then ignore this. But if not, one thing I did years ago on the Hornby D49, which has no roof overhang on the cab front, was to skim a 10-thou strip off the leading 5mm or so of the roof top, so that I could then embed a 6mm-strip of 10 thou in it; this could be blended into the expanse of the roof, and gave the correct overhang at the front; it was also stronger than a strip simply tacked on to the front of the cab. I don't know your prototype, but it looks like you might have to restore details such as rain strips if you took the course of action I've recommended.


Thank you. I haven't done any restoration of the cab roof yet. I was saving that until after I'd done the cab interior, and made sure that everything fitted together reasonably.

Your idea sounds as though it would work well, and having just looked at the roof, it seems possible. I have already removed the rain-strips, as they are in the wrong place, and the vee of them is at the wrong angle. So they'll be going back on anyway at some point.

A question: you mention skimming a strip off. Was there any particular way that worked well to do this? Or just with a good needle file and a degree of care?

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby steve howe » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:10 pm

If ever we can get together for a Scaleforum, we should have a 'parade of 14xxs' there must be quite a few out there!

Steve

Daddyman
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Daddyman » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:49 pm

Paul Willis wrote: A question: you mention skimming a strip off. Was there any particular way that worked well to do this? Or just with a good needle file and a degree of care?


Yes, Paul, just a good needle file and some care. Blind or ground off on the side which points towards the rear of the roof.
Best,
David.

User avatar
Steve Carter
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Steve Carter » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:16 pm

steve howe wrote:If ever we can get together for a Scaleforum, we should have a 'parade of 14xxs' there must be quite a few out there!

Steve


:thumb
Steve Carter

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:55 am

steve howe wrote:If ever we can get together for a Scaleforum, we should have a 'parade of 14xxs' there must be quite a few out there!

Steve


Good idea Steve :-)

I actually have a second one. I bought it pre-converted, when someone's collection of GWR locomotives was being disposed of at a Missenden Weekend.

Rather dusty, with the body yet to be upgraded.

Other 14xx (1).JPG


And with just drop-in replacement wheelsets, showing just how narrow the original frames are.

Other 14xx (2).JPG


I don't suppose that I should mention that at the same time I picked up a Castle, a Prairie and a Collet Goods at the same time...

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:55 am

Daddyman wrote:
Paul Willis wrote: A question: you mention skimming a strip off. Was there any particular way that worked well to do this? Or just with a good needle file and a degree of care?


Yes, Paul, just a good needle file and some care. Blind or ground off on the side which points towards the rear of the roof.
Best,
David.


David,

Thank you. I'll have a go, and report back :-)

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Enigma
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:13 pm

steve howe wrote:If ever we can get together for a Scaleforum, we should have a 'parade of 14xxs' there must be quite a few out there!

Steve

Let's all of us hope we can actually have a Scaleforum! I reckon a parade of 14xx's would be great. I wonder what the collective noun for 14xx's would be...? :)

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Dec 13, 2020 4:04 pm

Enigma asked
I wonder what the collective noun for 14xx's would be...? :)

A Collett of 14xx's?

Bryan

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:27 pm

The next step on the body is another one of those features which vary, depending on the period in which you're modelling your prototype.

Cab steps. Two types thereof. First, the as-built, early locomotives, as shown in this cropped photo of a 48xx wearing a mid-1930s GWR roundel:

Cab steps detail.jpg
Cab steps detail.jpg (70.2 KiB) Viewed 1358 times


And secondly, the later type, as seen on the preserved 1450:

48xx prototype  (29).jpg


The difference, when you look and find it obvious, is whether or not there is cut-out above the lower step. I haven't found reference to a reason or timing for such a change, and as a side-project I'm not going to into the realm of academic research. But a difference there is, and as the Airfix model is based on a later, probably British Railways or preserved prototype, it's one of the things that needs changing.

It was easy to do. Some plasticard strip cut to the correct size to fill the hole.

IMG_6805.JPG


And then filling in the gaps around the new piece with some of my liquid plastic "goop". You could just as easily use a body filler such as Squadron to do the same.

IMG_6807.JPG


After leaving it to harden off for a couple of days, then I filed back the surface to be truly flat using a small square needle file. Job done, and one of those little details that stands out for me.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Daddyman
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Daddyman » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:35 pm

Judging by the presence of similar holes on the steps of LNER locos (J27s, for example), they're to give access to the injectors, once those were moved to the position behind the cab steps.

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Noel » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:54 pm

In this case I suspect it might be to make it [a lot!] easier to get a spanner on the nut at the bottom of the spring hanger.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:49 pm

A small whoops, and onwards...

A couple of things to cover in this episode of the body detailing work. The first is a "don't do as I do, do as I say" moment...

The various lost wax castings in the Mainly Trains kit are supplied on a sprue, from which you cut them off, and clean them up. There aren't really any instructions about this process.

So compare the two brake hoses shown here:

IMG_6810.JPG


Yes, I'd cut off the linking piece between the bottom of the hose and the mount, thinking that it was a sprue feeder for the casting process. Before I realised that it was a representation of the chain which stops the hose from swinging around so much when it is not connected. Ho hum... So the denuded one is at the rear of the locomotive, and the complete one is in place at the front. No real harm, but don't follow my mistake if you try this.

The next stage was to fit replacement lamp-irons. These were from various etched brass sources, sitting around in the spares box. However, I knew that I didn't want any ping-fuckit moments if I accidentally caught them and knocked them off the finished model. So I drilled small holes in each of them before folding them into shape, and soldered some lengths of wire through them.

IMG_6815.JPG


The top end of the wires were then cut off, and carefully filed back to be flush with the lamp-iron. On the bottom, I left a short length of wire to pin them into place through the locomotive body.

IMG_6829.JPG


The parts dish, by the way, is an old Patum Peperium (anchovy paste) put. As these have curved insides, they are superb temporary holders for small parts as they make retrieving the said bits really easy. Recommended, and delicious on hot buttered toast as well.

After making up the brackets, they were mounted into small holes drilled with a pin-vice into the bunker rear, and the footplate. The pins underneath the lamp-irons were pushed through, and the whole thing secured with some thick superglue ("Slow Zap") applied on the inside face.

IMG_6831.JPG


IMG_6816.JPG


And that is that part of the detailing done.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Noel » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:08 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about the brake hose castings, Paul, since neither prototype matches the castings. The dummy for the front one is the other side of the cover for the wiring to the trailer, so either the hose crosses said cover in a way unique to GWR auto-fitted tanks [usual], or is just left hanging, unsecured. Also the pipe rises to just above the footplate and wiring cover before bending to attach the hose. The rear hose is the sort that stands above the buffer beam, with the dummy on the pipe about where it crosses the footplate. :D

Many years ago, now, Iain Rice did a set of castings for the 48xx, which included the front brake pipe and wiring cover; I seem to remember that someone else took them on subsequently, but I can't currently remember who.
Last edited by Noel on Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:22 pm

Noel wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the brake hose castings, Paul, since neither prototype matches the castings. The dummy for the front one is the other side of the cover for the wiring to the trailer, so either the hose crosses said cover in a way unique to GWR auto-fitted tanks [usual], or is just left hanging, unsecured. Also the pipe rises to just above the footplate and wiring cover before bending to attach the hose. The rear hose is the sort that stands above the buffer beam, with the dummy on the pipe about where it crosses the footplate. :D


Thanks Noel.

I summarise my P4 modelling as "Getting it mostly right" ;-)

I've always been an artist, rather than an engineer, and if it gives the correct impression, then I'm happy!

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Noel » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:29 pm

Paul Willis wrote:I've always been an artist, rather than an engineer, and if it gives the correct impression, then I'm happy!


But both pipes hanging below the buffer beam doesn't. Why do all the other improvements you have done, basically for purely cosmetic reasons, and ignore something so obvious? Yes, I know, Rule 1... :)

I've added a bit to my earlier post - it crossed with yours.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:55 pm

Noel wrote:Many years ago, now, Iain Rice did a set of castings for the 48xx, which included the front brake pipe and wiring cover; I seem to remember that someone else took them on subsequently, but I can't currently remember who.


Mainly Trains... That is why the brief instructions (one written side, one side of sketches) are in Iain's inimitable handwriting and style.

And a pretty good set they are too. I've certainly enjoyed working with them.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:00 pm

Noel wrote:
Paul Willis wrote:I've always been an artist, rather than an engineer, and if it gives the correct impression, then I'm happy!


But both pipes hanging below the buffer beam doesn't. Why do all the other improvements you have done, basically for purely cosmetic reasons, and ignore something so obvious? Yes, I know, Rule 1... :)

I've added a bit to my earlier post - it crossed with yours.


I think we may have been talking at cross-purposes. My fault in being careless with describing various bits of pipe gubbins. I was probably calling the steam heat pipe the vacuum pipe, or vice versa, Either way, I've been working from an assortment of photos, and this is how it currently looks.

IMG_6975 (2).JPG


I think that it's about right. If it's the steam heat pipe on the right (and I don't know, because there is no labelling in the instructions or diagrams) then I had to make up a bit of bracket to fix it at what looks like the correct height. There wasn't much under or around the bufferbeam to securely glue it to as it came.

Thanks for all the pointers. Despite taking the artistic approach, I would rather give the correct overall impression.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

MPR
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby MPR » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:09 am

Does anybody have a suggestion for a decent replacement dome for the 14xx? I haven’t found a suitable one yet. The moulded part on the Airfix body has a very significant taper on it.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:13 am

MPR wrote:Does anybody have a suggestion for a decent replacement dome for the 14xx? I haven’t found a suitable one yet. The moulded part on the Airfix body has a very significant taper on it.


Sorry, I'm afraid that this isn't a stone that I chose to turn. I've left mine with the original.

Looking at the model, and then the photos and the General Arrangement drawing of the locomotive in GWRJ no.22, I would identify a slightly different issue to be corrected.

I have measured that there is a taper on the dome of my model. Probably deliberately there to aid the release of it from the mould. However, with digital calipers, I reckon that the amount of the taper from top to bottom of the "parallel" section of the dome is only 0.05mm on each side. That's scarcely visible to me.

What became more noticeable as I looked is that the whole dome seems slightly malnourished. There is no marked dimension on the GA, but it looks to scale at 2'6" in diameter. The dome on my model seems to measure at about 9.4mm in the middle of the "parallel" section. So that is 0.6mm underscale against the prototype, which does have a visual impression if pointed out. All measurement subject to sel-induced manual errors, of course...

So whilst I can't help with a source for a replacement, I hope that you find one that is the right size, as well as without taper.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Noel » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:31 am

Paul Willis wrote:I think we may have been talking at cross-purposes.


Yes, I took your description as correct; I should have looked more closely!
Regards
Noel

Enigma
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Re: Airfix 48xx with High Level Kits chassis

Postby Enigma » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:30 pm

I have found that the steam heat pipe on mine hangs to low and catches on point blades etc. I wondered about cutting out the 'link wire' and bending it up but reading what's been said about it representing a length of chain I'm not so sure now.


Return to “Paul Willis”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests