Beer and Buckjumpers

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Will L
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Re: post in - First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Will L » Fri May 08, 2020 11:38 am

In another thread a bit of topic and at my promoting Paul posted as follows. In response to DaveB's entirety reasonable request not to take that thread any further off topic, I've answered here.
Flymo748 wrote:
Will L wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:... insulating the sides of a High Level gearbox, to make sure MGthey don't short out on the inside of the body when the suspension is active...

Sorry Paul but I may be being thick here but I'm not understanding the circumstance in which you would need to insulate the sides of you gearbox, and then not have the same problem with metal can on the motor itself?


The slightly sarcastic answer would be that the motor is actually narrower than the gearbox, by a millimetre or two ;-)
Image

Now you see how one forgets ones own perversities. I use 10nn flat can motors too, but I always put them with the flats top and bottom to avoid hiding the mounting screw under the worm gear. So, in my mind, the motor is wider than the gear box...isn't it?
In truth, I'd call it a precautionary move more than anything. As this is the first go at a split frame chassis, and one with CSBs as well, then I wanted to be absolutely sure that I didn't have any inadvertent shorting when the motor/gearbox was installed and nestling down between the frames.

I'm sure you'll have experienced one of those intermittent running problems at some point which is an absolute nightmare to diagnose - you know the type: the loco only stops when running through a left hand B6 turnout, in reverse, which three wagons attached but not four or two... So I thought I'd remove one possible factor at the design stage.

Actually that photo also answers my original query as it is quite clear that if your using live frames and CSB then the wires do pass very close to the gearbox sides and so are a potential a source of shorts. And yes those mysterious shorts do happen to us all occasionally. I would be quite interested in how you tackled the insulation on that axle and what is live and what isn't. I haven't been able to find anywhere you've covered it before?
Will L wrote:I recognise the J65 driving wheels though, the balance weights are quite distinctive. Which way does the motor go, back towards the cab or forward into the smoke box?


Towards the smokebox and tilting upwards (not at the angle shown below though, that was just to illustrate the chip fitting location), with the DCC chip and the end of the motor just fitting up into it. The whole thing sits quite low down in the chassis.

Image

Image

I must find time to post some more pictures of the build sequence on my workbench, just to finish the story off...

Cheers
Flymo

Well those three are now.

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:28 pm

Winander wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing this develop.

One question - how does the rivet press manage if the metal hasn't been half etched, i.e. you are pressing a rivet through the full thickness? It seems to me you will not get as a crisp an impression, but does the action of the pin and anvil still produce acceptable results?


So, here's a little bit of a tutorial on the GW Models rivet press. I'm not going to go into all the features, such as producing rows of rivets in sheet metal, or making arcs or circles. All of this is possible, and is particularly useful if you are scratchbuilding.

I'll also emphasise that you don't need a tool like this to make excellent models. However, I have found that this is definitely one of those tools that once you have it, it makes a specific task particularly easy. And it is so well engineered that if you look after it properly - mine lives in its box, and *never* comes anywhere near flux - then it will last a lifetime.

Speaking of which, if you want one *buy one now*. I'm not on commission, but there's are made by hand, and George Watts isn't getting any younger...

So... This is the box that mine lives in. George usually attends Scaleforum as a trader, and he also advertises in the MRJ, and will take orders by post. He doesn't have a website...

GW rivet press - box.JPG


It comes with instructions, which are basic but tell you all you need. George is a Proper Engineer, so you don't get any of that rubbish of "pointy things may be sharp, don't put in the dishwasher"...

GW rivet press - instructions 2.JPG


And this is what you get in the box. The slide is not used for basic pressing. As I mentioned, this is when you clamp sheet material in it for scratchbuilding, or perhaps adding rivets to kit parts that are lacking ones for a particular prototype. The spare punch is the one which is at a more blunt angle, for use on sheet material. The anvils are the ones described as "4mm" and "7mm", although <Primal Scream> All those are just labels </PS> and you use whichever one suits best. Frames in 4mm often have quite large rivets, for which the 7mm anvil is ideal:

GW rivet press - what you get.JPG


And these are the key parts I'll be referring to in a moment. I've already fitted the punch for half-etch rivets, as it has a narrower point/nose to fit easily in the etched hole. And the anvil fitted is the 2mm one, as that looks the best size for the parts I will demonstrate:

GW rivet press - side profile.JPG


As I've already mentioned, Chris at High Level is a real star in including practice half-etched rivets in the scrap etch in his kits:

High Level 48xx practive rivets.JPG


These are the practice rivets I did at Missenden. The larger one is from one of the larger anvils (can't remember which one) and was too prominent for me to want to use:

Practice rivets - formed.JPG


And finally, the first time I've tried a bit of ScalefourStudios(tm) video productions output, a couple of videos explaining the press, and demonstrating how to use it:

Introduction to the GW riveting press: https://youtu.be/EcGKLwlykRw

Using the GW riveting press for half-etched rivets: https://youtu.be/6I31-XaBq6g

I hope this all helps explain the process, and please do ask any follow-up questions.

Cheers
Flymo

PS - enormous thanks to my wife for being an excellent cameraman with my iPhone :-)
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Neil Smith
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Neil Smith » Fri May 08, 2020 3:56 pm

That's really useful thank you Flymo!

I have been using a gravity rivet tool thus far in my new foray into modelling, and am getting frustrated that while it does the business of producing a replica rivet, however hard I try to hold or clamp the piece, including by delivering the blow through a small hole in a steel rule held hard down on top, the blow always caused a wider deformation eg twisting or buckling.

Is this just my cackhandedness, or am I missing something? And /or is the thing I am missing a proper rivet press?!

All the best

Neil

PS re the thread about a virtual Scaleforum, these videos would be spot on for a demo... Only improvement I could suggest would be to move the camera to get the close up of the finished rivet and cut the shots together.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri May 08, 2020 6:54 pm

I think the critical thing is not how the work is held on top, but how it's supported underneath. In the absence of a proper anvil, it needs something flat and firm but slightly resilient, so that the nascent rivet can push into it. If the backing material distorts other than directly under the rivet then the workpiece does the same. Sheet lead is said to behave the right way. A self-healing cutting-mat is reasonable in my experience.

What a press with an anvil buys you is control over the shape of the rivet. Without an anvil, a rivet pressed in a parallel sheet (i.e. without a half-etched dimple) is going to press out as a cone rather than a hemisphere. I don't think there is much you can do about that. Possibly annealing the work minimises it.

Winander
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Winander » Fri May 08, 2020 7:14 pm

Paul,

Well done to your wife and yourself. A perfect example of what can be done with care and the minimum of equipment.

Also a good demonstration of the press and answered my question perfectly. I see the benefit of a press being the consistency of the product and as you say, you can manage with one, but it makes the job easier.
Richard Hodgson

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri May 08, 2020 9:10 pm

Neil Smith wrote:PS re the thread about a virtual Scaleforum, these videos would be spot on for a demo... Only improvement I could suggest would be to move the camera to get the close up of the finished rivet and cut the shots together.


Thanks Neil.

Getting a close up of the final result, when they are about 0.75mm across and you're filming with an iPhone is a bit challenging, to say the least ;-)

These are photos of the two rivets I did in the YouTube clip. The one without the half-etched hole is the one which is off-centre from the strip. The pictures are from my iPhone on zoom (not Zoom) so are starting to break up. They do show a slight difference between the two, but once you've buried it in a coat of paint and looked at it from three feet away...

IMG_6501.JPG


IMG_6503.JPG


As for cutting and editing, that would be showing signs of professionalism. I just did that as single takes, making up what I was talking about as I went along. Doing some planning and editing would make it about a zillion times more complex than it actually was to do :-)

Cheers
Flymo
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Neil Smith
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Neil Smith » Fri May 08, 2020 9:26 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:I think the critical thing is not how the work is held on top, but how it's supported underneath. In the absence of a proper anvil, it needs something flat and firm but slightly resilient, so that the nascent rivet can push into it. If the backing material distorts other than directly under the rivet then the workpiece does the same. Sheet lead is said to behave the right way. A self-healing cutting-mat is reasonable in my experience.

What a press with an anvil buys you is control over the shape of the rivet. Without an anvil, a rivet pressed in a parallel sheet (i.e. without a half-etched dimple) is going to press out as a cone rather than a hemisphere. I don't think there is much you can do about that. Possibly annealing the work minimises it.


Thank you Guy, that is very helpful!

I had been using wood as a base rather than my cutting mat thinking the latter might have too much give, so will try that next time. I don't have the spare cash for a rivet press just now, but I can very much see the advantages especially around the control over the final shape. And watching Flymo's video shows that using a press is a far gentler process than the "pile driver" of the gravity models, and this gentleness must surely aid finesse.

All the best

Neil

DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Fri May 08, 2020 9:54 pm

Thanks flymo, I purchased a GW press from a late member here in Melbourne but it only has one anvil and punch. Which suggests when I make it to the next scalefourum I will have to ask to buy a new set. Hopefully this matchs when George is there and happens sooner rather than later!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Winander
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Winander » Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 pm

Paul,

What thickness is the fret?

best wishes,
Richard
Richard Hodgson

Philip Hall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Philip Hall » Fri May 08, 2020 10:41 pm

I fear it may be that George will not be attending future Scaleforums. He has already withdrawn from this year’s event, if it happens, and not necessarily because of the lockdown. He is no longer able to drive and cannot find a driver to bring him to the show. He is still working and trading though so the only option now is to order by post.

I would echo Flymo’s comments, it’s a superb piece of kit - and not just because I reviewed it in MRJ 103! I don’t use it very often but am glad it’s waiting on the shelf in the workshop when I do want it. It produces very crisp rivets in various thicknesses of metal. Brass, being softer, works differently but practice makes perfect.

Philip

Daddyman
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Daddyman » Sat May 09, 2020 6:09 am

I'm surprised to hear all this praise for the GW press - but this is perhaps because people are only using it for punching out half-etched rivets (for which it is fine), and not using the index function, which can be poor (depending on whether or not you get lucky at the point of sale). One contributor to the last Scalefour News (not the one of a week or so ago) alluded to a hack that was necessary to make the press work properly in index mode, and mine (unmodified) has never done what it is supposed to do (it doesn't remain parallel to the edge of the work surface; the rivets wander off straight). We had a discussion on Mike Edge's thread on RMWeb recently about the mods necessary to make the indexing work properly; these are simple, but shouldn't be necessary on a piece of kit of this price.

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sat May 09, 2020 7:22 am

Winander wrote:Paul,

What thickness is the fret?

best wishes,
Richard


<whips out the digital micrometer and pops the battery back in it>

I make the nickel silver 0.36 mm. That's apparently 14 thou in old money.

With the leverage that you get from the tool, I'm confident it would work with thicker materials as well. I've packed it all away now and it's returned to the bottom drawer of the workbench or I'd check on some random bits of brass and n/s for you. As it's intended to serve the Senior Scale as well, it must handle thicker stuff.

Cheers
Flymo
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Flymo748
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Re: post in - First steps in P4- now on my second loco

Postby Flymo748 » Sat May 09, 2020 7:58 am

Will L wrote:Actually that photo also answers my original query as it is quite clear that if your using live frames and CSB then the wires do pass very close to the gearbox sides and so are a potential a source of shorts. And yes those mysterious shorts do happen to us all occasionally. I would be quite interested in how you tackled the insulation on that axle and what is live and what isn't. I haven't been able to find anywhere you've covered it before?


Will,

I must have posted the pictures of the gearbox and axle somewhere, as they are in my "posted pictures" folder. But clearly not on this thread, which sketches around the issue. So...

Split axle "kits" are from Branchlines, and I use their jig to glue them in. I make them up as a batch, and just lob them into the spares box until needed. Making them in advance, rather than when you need them means that you can leave them in the jig for a week of so for the epoxy resin to go really hard, rather than thinking "it says 24 hours, I'll give it 12 because I want to crack on..." and find you have Mr Floppy in your hands...

Split axles jig (2).JPG


These are the finished axles. After I remove them, I twiddle them in my fingers with a very light touch with a needle file just to polish the surface and make sure there aren't any stray threads of epoxy resin left.

The three-part axle that I used for the driven axle isn't one in this photo, but it is visible later on.

Split axles.JPG


I can't remember which High Level gearbox I used, but to get it within the centre insulated section of the three-part axle, it had to be narrowed. Encouraged by Steve Duckworth (thanks!) to commit this heresy, I cut the final drive stage in half, and the soldered it to a backing plate, which could then be trimmed to size. The soldering was done with dummy axles in place, to keep the alignment true.

Gearbox 1.JPG


Gearbox 2.JPG


This is the finished gearbox, with the axle fitted (yes, I know platform clearances will be an issue...) and you can see how the final drive section is safely inside the insulated section.

Gearbox 3.JPG


Gearbox 4.JPG


And this is it tested for fit in the final chassis. Because of the tightness of fit between the frames and the CSB wires, there hasn't even been a need for any spacing washers to keep the gearbox away from the "live" sections.

Gearbox 5.JPG


Hope that this covers everything.

Cheers
Flymo
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David Thorpe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby David Thorpe » Sat May 09, 2020 3:09 pm

Paul, I hate to take you back four years, particularly as you may well have supplied the information elsewhere in the meantime, but how did your use of silver conductive paint for your split chassis wheels work out?

DT

Winander
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Winander » Sun May 10, 2020 11:04 am

Daddyman wrote:We had a discussion on Mike Edge's thread on RMWeb recently about the mods necessary to make the indexing work properly; these are simple, but shouldn't be necessary on a piece of kit of this price.


David,

I've spent some time looking on RMWeb but can't find this thread as it is relevant to Paul's demo, can you please provide a link?

thanks
Richard Hodgson

Daddyman
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Daddyman » Sun May 10, 2020 12:31 pm

Winander wrote:
Daddyman wrote:We had a discussion on Mike Edge's thread on RMWeb recently about the mods necessary to make the indexing work properly; these are simple, but shouldn't be necessary on a piece of kit of this price.


David,

I've spent some time looking on RMWeb but can't find this thread as it is relevant to Paul's demo, can you please provide a link?

thanks


Sorry you've had to hunt around. Here's the link:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... s/page/54/

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sun May 10, 2020 1:15 pm

David Thorpe wrote:Paul, I hate to take you back four years, particularly as you may well have supplied the information elsewhere in the meantime, but how did your use of silver conductive paint for your split chassis wheels work out?

DT


David,

It was fairly successful - with the big caveat that I have yet to try it on a locomotive build. There is also a big practical problem that I need to think through as well - a case of chicken and egg, so to speak.

In a sign that the last couple of years saw a fall off in the attention I paid to my own modelling, I have no idea where I put the post-it notes that I made when I was carrying out the experiement.

I'll have a hunt for it and see if I can find the details to post.

Cheers
Flymo
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David Thorpe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby David Thorpe » Tue May 12, 2020 10:53 am

Flymo748 wrote:It was fairly successful - with the big caveat that I have yet to try it on a locomotive build. There is also a big practical problem that I need to think through as well - a case of chicken and egg, so to speak. In a sign that the last couple of years saw a fall off in the attention I paid to my own modelling, I have no idea where I put the post-it notes that I made when I was carrying out the experiement. I'll have a hunt for it and see if I can find the details to post.


Don't go to any such trouble, Paul. The facts that you haven't tried it again and haven't used it on a loco build (although I thought that was what you were using it on!) suggest that it wasn't all that successful.

DT

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:07 pm

David Thorpe wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:It was fairly successful - with the big caveat that I have yet to try it on a locomotive build. There is also a big practical problem that I need to think through as well - a case of chicken and egg, so to speak. In a sign that the last couple of years saw a fall off in the attention I paid to my own modelling, I have no idea where I put the post-it notes that I made when I was carrying out the experiement. I'll have a hunt for it and see if I can find the details to post.


Don't go to any such trouble, Paul. The facts that you haven't tried it again and haven't used it on a loco build (although I thought that was what you were using it on!) suggest that it wasn't all that successful.

DT


Hi David,

I did use it on a loco build - the E22 that I finished a couple of months ago - and it was successful. What I used the silver lacquer for was to ensure there is good electrical conductivity between the brass strips bringing the current in from the tyre to the actual split axle.

I didn't want to rely on only the friction/contact between the strip and the axle. So I used the lacquer to make a "fillet" between the two. And it has been very reliable.

The next step that I was going to try was to use the lacquer as a coat for the spokes of the wheel itself, so I didn't need to use the brass shorting strips at all. That would avoid the risk of melting the wheel when soldering it in place, and would be less "intrusive".

What I did was use a scrap axle and wheel to apply successive coats of lacquer to, building up conductivity. I measured the resistance between the tyre and axle after leaving each application to dry. The result was that after six or eight coats or so - I need to find my notes - the resistance was at a low level, and stopped decreasing further. So I reckon that the idea works.

It's now just a matter of "operationalising" it and seeing how it can work around hornblocks, gearboxes, etc, and also with painting and lining the wheels.

So I may well return to the concept when I build my next split frame chassis. And I'll post the story here :-)

Cheers
Paul
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:09 pm

Winander wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:I am slightly confused Paul ... aren't the springs removable - so that you can drop the wheels out? Or do you fit the wheels permenantly so to speak requireing them to be removed from the axles if they need dropping out at a later date?


Tim,

Unless I am very much mistaken, the wheelsets would come out the same way they have to go in as neither they, nor the hornguides are fitted.

regards,


The wheelsets will be pressed into place using my GW quartering press, and hopefully will not have to come out again :-)

If they do, it will be with the aid of a wheel-puller, modified as David Brandreth mentioned a while ago, with a disc to support the spokes in use.

Cheers
Paul
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - making some changes...

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:16 pm

For those looking for my 48xx chassis build - it's not here...

I was having a think about how it might be useful for readers in future, and how they may have difficulty in following it with my random diversions, side-twists and unrelated questions.

So I decided that rather that having a single long and rambling thread of "Beer & Buckjumpers" under my workbench, I would use the facilities of the Forum to create a separate area for each distinct piece of modelling that I do. Hopefully, that will be a better reference for me, and an easier read for anyone who is interested.

I've started this by splitting out all of the 48xx build posts. It includes the questions and diversions related to the build, for they are all part of the story. So you can now find it "On My Workbench" at https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=6987.

And I'll keep this thread for my various ramblings, observations, and anything which doesn't fit within a specific model build. I won't be stopping those!

Cheers
Flymo
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