Beer and Buckjumpers

martin goodall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby martin goodall » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:12 pm

I am intrigued by the extra pick-ups, but does it make all that much difference in practice?

I have come round to the view that pick-ups should be fitted to as many wheels as possible (including tender wheels), but on an 0-4-0T, four is the absolute limit, and it may not be enough for complete reliability, even where springing or compensation is fitted. Do two wipers on the same wheel really make a difference?

I had no fewer than four 4-wheeled engines (including a Y6 tram engine) running on my old Crichel Down layout, which appeared twice at Scaleforum, among other places, and there were inevitably occasions when an engine refused to move. Rather than opening the controller wide and thumping the basebaord, whereupon it would take off like a startled rabbit, I closed the controller, 'twisted' the engine on the track which nearly always restored contact, took my hand away and then opened the controller again slowly and gently. It always seemed to me that intervention of the human hand in this way was less obtrusive than finger-poking with the contoller open, which inevitably leads to a jack-rabbit start.

One option that might be tried on a tram engine (although I never bothered with my Y6) might be to rig up phosphor bronze wipers to rub directly on the rails, which would be equivalent to adding extra wheels. They would have to be wide enough not to fall off the rails or snag on rail joints, etc. and tension would have to be carefully adjusted to avoid lifting the wheels off the track, but it should be possible to make it work. Unfortunately, this is not an option for orthodox 0-4-0Ts where the wipers would be all too visible.

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:00 pm

martin goodall wrote:I am intrigued by the extra pick-ups, but does it make all that much difference in practice?

I have come round to the view that pick-ups should be fitted to as many wheels as possible (including tender wheels), but on an 0-4-0T, four is the absolute limit, and it may not be enough for complete reliability, even where springing or compensation is fitted. Do two wipers on the same wheel really make a difference?


The proof remains to be seen :-)

For any model fitted with wiper pick-ups (so anything except those gifted individuals that can build split-chassis arrangements...) then there are actually two potential points of failure on each pick-up. One is between the rail and the wheel, and the second is between the wheel and the wiper/plunger/whatever.

By doubling the number of pick-ups bearing on the wheel, I should have halved the chance of the latter being a point of failure because of dust, dirt, oil and all the general crud that is collected from the atmosphere.

It's no effort to do, and it cannot (assuming that I haven't unsoldered something and bu**ered up an existing pick-up) possibly make things worse. So I'll wait until I next get a controller out to "play trains" and see how it goes...

Flymo
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David Knight
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby David Knight » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:57 pm

I always thought that good contact was one of the prime reasons for suspension. Part of the trick is to be sure that your wipers are always in contact with the wheels so perhaps testing over rough track would be the first thing to do. My Neilson is compensated with PB wire pickups shown here: viewtopic.php?p=15557#p15557

This has proven to be quite reliable.

HTH

David

nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:32 am

I'm in agreement with Martin, if the pickups are working, I can't see what the duplicates are achieving.

Now, given its DCC, then stay alive capacitors in the locos will make a positive difference which can be seen in normal running. No need for special test rigs. When I looked at the chassis at Warley, there is space for some capacitors.

- Nigel

martin goodall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby martin goodall » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 am

Well, I agree that the extra wipers can't do any harm (except possibly by adding very slightly to the overall friction in the mechanism, but this is probably negligible in practice).

I suppose what I had in mind is that pick-ups of the type originally designed and fitted to this model (and to others illustrated on this forum with the same type of pick-ups) are likely to be almost 100% reliable, so far as contact between the wheel and the wiper is concerned.

The problem in most cases is the contact between the wheel and the rail, due to dirt on the track, dirt on the wheel, or unevenness in the track (so that the loco 'rocks' on the track and contact is lost between the wheel and the rail). Springing or compensation is the obvious answer, but having as many wheels as possible colecting current is also very helpful. In fact, in the case of a model with at least 8 wheels collecting current (including tender wheels on a tender loco), the extra pick-ups can eliminate the need for compensation or springing, at least so far as current collection is concerned.

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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - the trouble with tall people...

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:34 am

...is that when you use them as crew in a locomotive, their heads stop the roof from sitting properly in place...

Observe the gap on the corner on the left where the roof doesn't meet the body. That was because my somewhat aloof driver had an interference with the lead sheet that was hidden inside the cab roof for extra weighting.

The lead is now removed, and all is back to normal. If only I'd discovered that _before_ the photo session was completed...

Tram roof.jpg


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Knuckles
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Knuckles » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:53 pm

I double tripple dare you to paint a #7 on it's side. :D

Looks good. Colours arn't fresh after weathering so it looks more realistic IMO.
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:44 pm

Knuckles wrote:I double tripple dare you to paint a #7 on it's side. :D

Looks good. Colours arn't fresh after weathering so it looks more realistic IMO.


Hi Knuckles,

I think that you mean to go with these name plates???

Number Seven.jpg


Unfortunately not :-)

It's being finished in Great Eastern Railway livery, circa 1911, for use on the Next Great Layout Plan (which will actually be quite small...) when it starts. I already have a couple of sets of Wisbech and Upwell coaches to go with it, so it should make rather a nice train.

Thanks for the comments on the weathering. It's getting there with that. I've just put on the lettering, and when I've achieved the lining of the panels then I'll put a coat of varnish on it and see what more weathering is needed.

At least I think that I've managed to put the lettering on straight ;-)

Tram lettered.jpg


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Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - lining out

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:07 pm

A few days delay in posting this... Between Christmas and New Year, we actually had decent enough weather for me to try lining out my tram locomotive.

This was done using my new Bob Moore lining pen, which I acquired at Scaleforum in September. I've never really succeeded with a traditional bow pen, so on the recommendation of my Area Group I decided to give this a try.

The first attempts to produce lining on a panel of transfer paper to then place on the model were singularly unsuccessful:

Tramlines 007.JPG


However I decided that there was nothing to lose from trying, and went on to lining directly onto the model:

Tramlines 004.JPG


And this was the arrangement that I used. The idea for the painting cradle came from an article in MRJ. I recall that it is how Alan Brackenborough paints his models. After the vermillion lining was in place, I used a brush to go around the outside of the panel with black, which also helped tidy up the slightly uneven patches:

Tramlines 008.JPG


There's been a bit more done since then, so hopefully I'll have another instalment for you soon...

Flymo
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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:35 am

Looks good Flymo. What a difference a few lines make - it adds extra character.

Although you didn't use it, where did you get the transfer paper from?
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:04 am

Ealing wrote:Looks good Flymo. What a difference a few lines make - it adds extra character.

Although you didn't use it, where did you get the transfer paper from?

Hi Ealing,

The transfer paper came from Fox Transfers. It's good quality, and I'm sure that I'll use it in other circumstances.

The disaster this time around was undoubtedly due to my cack-handedness with the lining pen. And that was due to the fact that it was the first time that I was using it, and hadn't practiced enough on scrap material.

At times, I can match Knuckles for impatience... (Sorry Knuckles!).

The tram is now nearly finished:

- buffers in place, solid as with Sprat & Winkle couplings I don't need sprung ones

- coupling loops for the afore-mentioned soldered through the cowcatchers

Just a little more weathering to do, and she's finished :-)

Flymo
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Knuckles
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:05 pm

No problem! :thumb

Do I come accross that way or was it something I said!? I can be at times though, freely admitted.

The tram is looking absolutely splendid by the way. A real inspiring peice of work.

Never really been a fan of the claas but after following this thread one day I might be doing one I think, yours has that finescale look about it wheras most I have seen in 4mm look lumpy, but mine will no doubt have a..um. Number 7 on the side :?

*hides*

EDIT: Oh yeah, this quote...

Flymo748 wrote:
Knuckles wrote:I double tripple dare you to paint a #7 on it's side. :D


Hi Knuckles,

I think that you mean to go with these name plates???
Number Seven.jpg

(on my phone so editing is limited but look above)

I don't think RWS loco's had nameplated but whether they do or don't those look decidedly attractive.
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:10 am

Knuckles wrote:The tram is looking absolutely splendid by the way. A real inspiring peice of work.

Never really been a fan of the claas but after following this thread one day I might be doing one I think, yours has that finescale look about it wheras most I have seen in 4mm look lumpy, but mine will no doubt have a..um. Number 7 on the side :?


Hi Knuckles,

I think that the reason that this tram looks quite delicate isn't my modelling, but the fact that it is built from an etched brass kit.

I'd bet money that 9 out of 10 tram locomotives that you see on layouts are whitemetal kits. I know that D&S produced one, and I think that K's did as well. No matter how good the kits were designed, and I've certainly never heard anything negative about the D&S kit, then whitemetal is never going to be as "crisp" a material to work with as brass or nickel silver. I think that you're finding that out from your own latest model under construction.

As for wearing a number seven, well that's entirely up to you ;-)

Cheers
Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - something for Mr Tatlow...

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:42 pm

As I had a somewhat frustrating experience last weekend in trying to do more on my Coffeepot (perhaps another post if I can face the memory of it...) I took on a small diversion of fettling another wagon.

As with the recently completed LNWR wagon, this was one that I built some time ago and needs checking over and any faults resolving. Fortunately time had not wounded this one, so all that it needed was a spot of weathering, which I did over a couple of days before going to work.

And here are the results:

DSC_0008 (Copy).JPG


DSC_0010 (Copy).JPG


DSC_0013 (Copy).JPG


Now to raid the stock box to see what I fancy working on next. Oh, and tonight might see a Y14 tender come together :-)

Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - love me tender...

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:57 am

...as we would say in the Black Country.

Aren't they easy to put together? This is the result of an hour or so of work. Compared to fiddling about with tiny, tiny components on 0-4-0 locomotives, this is the equivalent of moving to 7mm. Big pieces of metal!

IMG_6813.JPG


IMG_6814.JPG


It's not all plain sailing though.

Compared to the warm, luxurious, verbosity of a set of High Level Kits instructions, the ones that you get in a Gibson kit are somewhat sparse :-/ Still, there's nothing too complex about this, so referring to the exploded diagram is pretty much all you need.

However there are atill one or two "gotchas" in the kit. I've just soldered the first outside frame to the tender dragbeam. The slot in which it located is drawn (the kit isn't badly etched at all, so this is clearly how it was drawn) so wide that you have the choice of soldering to the left or the right side of it, and leaving a space on the other side.

I clearly guessed incorrectly - the answer should be the "inside" of the slot - as when I placed the frame against the tender body it put the dragbeam out of line outside the body on the other side by around a millimetre. I could have takenit all apart and resoldered it. However a gentle push into place and a bit of tack solder (visible in the first picture) will hold all in line as I construct the rest of the underframe.

"Bodgers 'r' Us", as they also say in the Black Country!

Flymo
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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:42 pm

Good stuff Flymo.
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Chris Mitton
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers - love me tender!

Postby Chris Mitton » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:19 pm

Hi Paul.....

SNAP!.......J15's must be in the breeding season! (http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2341&p=21397#p21397)

A couple more "gotchas" for you.....the tender top is a hefty lump of metal, so much so that when I managed to get one corner slightly misaligned, instead of flexing to suit it put a twist in the whole tender! Only a fraction of a millimetre, but we of this faith worry about such things! It took quite a bit of jiggery-pokery with the iron to correct, and it was only when I threatened it with daughter-in-law's cook's blowtorch that it decided to fall into line!

The rear buffer-beam is completely wrong - the buffer holes are much too close. I spent an hour or so tediously drilling, broaching and filing a new one, and I couldn't get the coupling slot narrow enough so another bodge will be needed, but for now it will have to do!

I trust this isn't going to turn into a race!

Regards for now
Chris

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers - love me tender!

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:47 pm

Chris Mitton wrote:SNAP!.......J15's must be in the breeding season! (http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2341&p=21397#p21397)

A couple more "gotchas" for you.....the tender top is a hefty lump of metal, so much so that when I managed to get one corner slightly misaligned, instead of flexing to suit it put a twist in the whole tender! Only a fraction of a millimetre, but we of this faith worry about such things! It took quite a bit of jiggery-pokery with the iron to correct, and it was only when I threatened it with daughter-in-law's cook's blowtorch that it decided to fall into line!

Hi Chris :-)

Well, I haven't reached that stage yet... The trial fit isn't too bad, although I'll have to see how closely I can align it when it comes to being soldered. Given the thickness of the brass, I feel that the RSU is going to come out to zap that one...

Also, I'm going to have a go at rectifying the undersized "hole for the coal" that is referred to in the MRJ article about the J15. Where that leads, me, I know not, althoughyou know that I like a challenge!

Chris Mitton wrote:The rear buffer-beam is completely wrong - the buffer holes are much too close. I spent an hour or so tediously drilling, broaching and filing a new one, and I couldn't get the coupling slot narrow enough so another bodge will be needed, but for now it will have to do!

Yes, that's also mentioned in the MRJ article.

Guess what? I've just put down the piercing saw and files after fretting one out. It's the pillar drill next to get the buffer holes in place, and the coupling slot as well.

Fitting it will be a challenge as well, as the buffer beam isn't symetrical horizontally. The buffers have a greater gap towards the bottom of the buffer beam. Or is it the top? I think that I have to squint at some prototype photos to establish which way up it goes.

Chris Mitton wrote:I trust this isn't going to turn into a race!

Nah! I become distracted with far too many other things to finish this in any sort of hurry!

Cheers
Flymo


Regards for now
Chris[/quote]
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:41 am

Ealing wrote:Good stuff Flymo.


Thank you :-)

The Y14 tender is now making progress. I've just gone "ping!" with the first 0.6mm drill that I've broken since I purchased my Proxxon drill stand. However that is nothing more than I deserve as at the time I was pushing sideways on it to use it as a mill to cut out the coupling hook slot!

All that to save me digging out the pliers to adjust my piercing saw :-/

Lesson learned, and I've now done it properly. Here's the tender top (refered to by Chris correctly as "a big b*****d piece of brass"0 with the coal space cut back to the correct size, and the buffer beam in progress.

IMG_6816.JPG


And this is the old and new buffer beams tack-soldered together to enable me to drill through the coupling hook slot. <ahem> Giving rise to the "ping" moment... You can also just see at the right hand side of the right buffer hole the pilot hole for the correctly placed buffers. They're off-location by quite a bit!

IMG_6817.JPG


And finally the old and new buffer beams separated, cleaned up, and side by side for comparison:

IMG_6818.JPG


Now back to the soldering iron!

Flymo
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:49 pm

To help Paul answer a question that he received via email I can tell you a little more about the Highland timber wagon that he posted about earlier on this page. There were over 200 of these on the Highland's system.

This is a white metal kit produced by the Model Wagon Company; sadly not been in production for 20+ years but you do see them occasionally on fleabay.

They were designed to have staves slide into the metal mounting brackets that are visible on Pauls model. With apologies for the slightly scrappy pictures, but here are a couple of mine under construction with the staves mounted:

011compress.JPG


The timber was mounted longitudinally I beleive, that is a task still to do as I don't think they have made progress from these piccies!

There is a picture of one in Hunter's "Carriages & Wagons of the Highland Railway" but I am afraid that this book is also rather difficult to get hold of. Fear not though, if you can wait to the Glasgow show in 2014 and look at the booksellers, you may well find a much extended and improved book on the Highlands carriages and wagons..........
Mark Tatlow

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David B
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby David B » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:55 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:There is a picture of one in Hunter's "Carriages & Wagons of the Highland Railway" but I am afraid that this book is also rather difficult to get hold of.


There is a copy available on ABE Books for £15 + p&p. There are also 3 copies on Amazon, though the most expensive is £104.95!!

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:34 pm

There is a copy available on ABE Books for £15 + p&p.

WAS, someone has quick reactions.
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Flymo748
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Another Round...

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:11 am

Well, that's embarassing!

Part of the silence over the last couple of weeks has been working out exactly what I've done to my Beer & Buckjumpers thread. When I last came to make an update, it wouldn't allow me to post any pictures as illustrations.

Thanks to some digging around by WebmasterRob, it appears that I've hit the limit in size of a single thread.

So it's time for me to wander back to the bar and get started again with Another Round. Hence the relocation of this thread into the OMWB area. And there is quite a bit of modelling to catch up on, so I'm looking forward to it.

IMG_6902.JPG


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Flymo
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Tim V
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Re: Another Round...

Postby Tim V » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:53 pm

So, what is happening on that very empty workbench....
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David Knight
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Re: Another Round...

Postby David Knight » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:04 pm

He's been tidying things up in preparation for the next project?

;)

Cheers,

David


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