Beer and Buckjumpers

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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - Through the paintshop

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:25 am

A couple of pictures of the other locomotives currently going through the paintshop.

First, the Y6 tram engine which this morning got the first coat of teak paint on the woodwork. In my opinion, it's starting to look rather smart.

Paintshop 001.jpg


The teak will get at least another coat of paint before I start thinking about putting the woodgrain on the top of it.

I also need to think about the colour of the interior. I haven't found any reference yet to indicate what the colours may be. I suspect that it would not be teak, as there would be a need for as much light as possible to be reflected into what would be quite a gloomy interior, with all of that boiler taking up space. I suspect that I'll go for some shade of light stone, cream or ivory white, all with suitable weathering.

And this is the Y14, after three light coats of GER royal blue. I feel that it's just about ready to start on the detailed paintwork of the areas of black, and then onto the detailing. I quite like the satin finish, with perhaps a little more shine in the final varnish coat before the weathering goes on.

Paintshop 004.jpg


Paintshop 006.jpg


More to be done this afternoon :-)
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:30 pm

Flymo, they do look really good. Are you spraying the paint or brushing. I ask as you seem to have a very thin even coat. Painting is one of the skills I have yet to acquire Or is that develop.
Doug
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:49 am

DougN wrote:Flymo, they do look really good. Are you spraying the paint or brushing. I ask as you seem to have a very thin even coat. Painting is one of the skills I have yet to acquire Or is that develop.

Hi Doug,

The GER Blue has been sprayed on, in three very thin coats, with probably three or four days between each coat. I wasn't aiming for a particular time to leave it, but that was when I had chance to do a little modelling.

The equipment is all pretty standard: Badger 150 airbrush, using the Fine nozzle, tanked compressor from Derek at Eileen's set to 20 psi, Precision GER Blue, let down _slightly_ in consistency by Precision quick-drying air thinners. I did follow one tip of Derek's, and that was to paint into the corners first, and then just fill in the middle of the larger areas after all of the crevices have been covered. In that way you don't get a build up of multiple layers due to repeated overspraying. It really does work.

The teak is applied with a good quality artist's brush. However it's getting to the end of its life and I suspect is going to be replaced by a number of new ones soon. It's been a while since I did any serious painting and I hadn't realised how little good quality kit I had left. I keep stealing the tired brushes to use for flux!

Flymo
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:05 am

Thansk Paul,

I know I am going to be needing to start painting in the next week and a half if I have any chance of bringing things along to Scalefourum.

I have a Paasche airbrush and a piston compressor that is designed for air brushes but I have yet to really use it in earnest. This week may be the oportunity!
Doug
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HowardGWR
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby HowardGWR » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:24 am

I thought the teak vehicle looked suitably authentic as it was (could be the photo) and reminded me of the George Iliffe Stokes approach to realism. Looked fine as it was, congratulations !!

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:03 pm

HowardGWR wrote:I thought the teak vehicle looked suitably authentic as it was (could be the photo) and reminded me of the George Iliffe Stokes approach to realism. Looked fine as it was, congratulations !!

That's very kind of you, but unfortunately the photo was rather flattering...

Because of my preference for rather thin coats of paint, and several of them, then viewed from a different angle it is slightly more problematic. What could be seen as highlights is actually still the yellow of the self-etch primer on the corners, and the shading further down is from the Royal Blue overspray showing through as a base colour. So it does look rather less satisfactory in real life.

That said, once I've got it into a state with decent paint coverage, I'll be out with the washes and the dry brushing to put it all back again!

It will probably only need one more coat of the teak, and I'm intending to let some of the underlying colour remain, but at the moment it's not quite there yet.

Flymo
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:38 pm

it does look an excellent finish, but i'm not sure if its my screen but your GER blue looks to be exactly the same colour as the weathered black on the tram skirts, or did the GE paint the tram skirts blue as well?
Keith
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Keith
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:59 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:it does look an excellent finish, but i'm not sure if its my screen but your GER blue looks to be exactly the same colour as the weathered black on the tram skirts, or did the GE paint the tram skirts blue as well?
Keith

Hi Keith,

It's not your screen :-)

Yes, the sideskirts should be Royal Blue for the period that I'm modelling. Interestingly, the buffer beams were as well, supposedly to prevent the normal vermillion red scaring any loose animals that the locomotive may approach on open sections of tramway.

The blue tank side panels also need to have black borders on them, and vermillion lining! If you thought that building a tram locomotive was simple, just try finishing one...

This livery was carried from the time of construction until roughly 1915 when the sideskirts were painted a wartime grey shade, similar to the well known "photographic grey" but more probably just undercoat... Then from 1920 to '23, the bodies ceased to be teak and were painted carriage crimson instead. So in a few short years a broad variety of liveries were carried.

Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - more painting...

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:41 pm

Someone prodded me a couple of days ago to ask how the tram engine was going. The answer is progressively through the paintshop...

Paint 001.jpg


The boiler is from the tram, and the backhead from the Y14. They will both be getting gauges, brasswork and similar picked out on them next.

The tram itself has had another coat of teak basecolour, but then washed over with a Dulux teak effect topcoat. It's shiny, but doesn't give a convincing effect of woodgrain in 4mm.

I don't want to lose more of the detail by putting another coat of base colour over the top, so will see what can be done with dry brushing and weathering...

Oh, and the tram interior will have to be painted again, as just after I completed that with a "guessed" colour of off-white, I found a reference that the GER painted cab interiors in tan. There are days when I really wish for a GER equivalent of "Great Western Way"!

Flymo
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Mark Tatlow » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:45 pm

Paul,

Take a look at using wood dye to grain. It is much thinner and when it starts to dry (this happens relatively fast unless you really lap it on) you can drag your brush through it to grain.

As ever, try it on something rough first.
Mark Tatlow

Philip Hall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:53 pm

I've used wood stain (on a tan coloured base, actually the kit plastic) to finish a rake of LNER carriages, and it gives a very nice effect, but a note of caution: be careful how you varnish afterwards. I used my usual Ronseal, a mixture of satin and gloss (not the quick drying acrylic, the ordinary polyurethane stuff) and decided to brush it on as I had created a wood grain effect so a few brush marks wouldn't show and might even improve it a bit. Well, as I was brushing it one the wood graining started to move around! So I did it more carefully, brushing the varnish as little as possible and in the direction of the grain on each panel. Once dry there was no problem. Had I applied the wood stain to a painted tan base it might possibly have adhered better.

I should perhaps have used the airbrush to avoid such a problem, but for health reasons I was avoiding using it then (This was a few years ago, and I'd had a bit of a breathing scare, with water based paint of all things). To a large extent I still do as the symptoms haven't entirely gone away...

Philip

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:00 pm

I have a teal livery method which uses nothing more exotic than enamel paints. You will be able to check it out the results in the completion show case as Scaleforum. If you want more details ask me there.

Will

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:08 pm

Will L wrote:I have a teal livery method which uses nothing more exotic than enamel paints. You will be able to check it out the results in the completion show case as Scaleforum. If you want more details ask me there.

Hi Will,

Thanks for the offer. To be honest, I wish that I'd just stuck with my usual dry brushing techniques and produced an effect that way.

However I'd had some good results in 12":1ft scale with woodwork in my old house, so having this as tester sized pot meant that I thought that it was worth giving it a try. Turns out that it wasn't, so lesson learned and the pot will go in the bin...

I'll be pretty busy over the weekend, so won't get the chance to do more for a few days, although I'll be picking it up again soon!

Cheers
Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - getting things moving

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:26 am

As a change from the painting, yesterday I decided to stop dithering and see if I could get the tram engine actually moving under its own power...

I had already glued in place some gapped copperclad board and given it a coating of solder to ensure that the subsequent work took well to it. This is the preparation underneath the chassis, and also shows the amount of space that I have to work with.

Pickups 003.jpg


As a reminder, the gearbox is one of the slimline High Level models which is articulated so that it fits underneath the boiler. It is the 1:108 ratio (I think!) to ensure that the tram can creep along at an appropriately slow pace. You can also see the guitar strings in place from the CSB suspension arrangement.

These are the pickups themselves. Made by twisting phosphor bronze wire (in straight packs from Eileen's Emporium, rather than battle with coils of the stuff) around a 2mm wagon axle with a slot cut in the end. Inspiration from Morgan Gilbert in the thread here http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=550 (look a third of the way down...)

Pickups 005.jpg


And these are them in place. The gearbox limited the amount of space that I had available for one pair, but there is still enough flexibility for them to cope with the suspension movement. As the tram wears skirts, I didn't have to worry about the ends of the wires being visible next to the tyres.

Pickups 011.jpg


This is it completed. You can see how low in the chassis the motor and gearbox sit. It's on my short test board. I hooked up a pentroller to it, turned on the juice, and off it went :-)

Pickups 015.jpg


It can do with a little lubrication, and some gentle running in to aid smoothness and reduce motor noise, but it runs!

Pickups 018.jpg


In this final shot it can just be seen through the door and window when the body is fitted. This will be covered by the boiler.

Although this chassis works successfully, I'm still not confident or happy with fitting sprung pickups (and this method is the best that I've tried so far) so I'm fairly certain that the next new-build locomotive that I start will be a split-chassis one.

Flymo
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:37 pm

Well done Flymo, I seem to be having the touble of getting things to move under their own power at the moment. The Tram really looks the part. As I have said previously these pick ups really do work successfully.
Doug
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby allanferguson » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:33 pm

I am impressed that you could put the works together an make it go. I have persistent problems with this sort of pick up -- the vertical displacement of the wire is sufficient to cause it to foul the frames. Is this perhaps a matter of the pressure on the wheelrims? What gauge of PB wire do you use?

Allan F

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:12 pm

allanferguson wrote:I am impressed that you could put the works together an make it go. I have persistent problems with this sort of pick up -- the vertical displacement of the wire is sufficient to cause it to foul the frames. Is this perhaps a matter of the pressure on the wheelrims? What gauge of PB wire do you use?

Hi Allan,

Well, I'm amazed that it works first time... In the tradition of all the best awards ceremonies, there are a few people that I'd like to thank...

Seriously, I think that a lot of my success here is due to the sound advice of John Brighton in how to set up a chassis, and what is the correct amount of "slack" to fettle it to. And I've already mentioned Morgan and the pick-up design. Plus I'm helped in not having to get it cosmetically pretty by hiding the whole lot under the skirts of the tram.

I agree with you that the correct amount of pressure is critical. That is where I find this style of pick-up is very good, as it can give a gentle pressure whilst still staying tightly controlled in place. And it does still respond to a spot of tweaking with snipe-nosed pliers if it needs moving a mill or two - as a couple of these did. I still suffer from not having three hands to hold it all in place whilst soldering, and was seriously looking as to how to get a contact point for my RSU...

The PB wire itself is thicker than Morgan recommends - it's 0.35 mm, and I think that he used 0.25mm. It's what I had in stock... I might see if Derek has some thinner in stock at Scaleforum, but I'll probably forget!

Flymo
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Philip Hall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:32 pm

I have used this style of pickups for years, but nearly always using 0.3mm hard brass wire, as I prefer this when using steel tyres. When I've got nickel silver tyres, PB is fine but I prefer it a little thinner than Flymo's, 0.25mm or 0.3mm again. With the right amount of pressure (which can be surprisingly light) they work very well.

As for touching the frames upon deflection, I've not had much problem with that apart from some GWR engines with massive J hangers behind the wheels. When I've been known simply to snip them off and not look too closely...

Philip

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:15 pm

allanferguson wrote:... I have persistent problems with this sort of pick up -- the vertical displacement of the wire is sufficient to cause it to foul the frames. Is this perhaps a matter of the pressure on the wheelrims? What gauge of PB wire do you use?Allan F


Possibly but I'd want to know more about how you configure them. Posted else where is one approach to this when the going really did get tough and the pick ups had to pass through a gap no more than 1.5mm wide and not touch either side. This is the same picture cropped and blown up a bit.
Y5 pickups 2.jpg
Y5 pickups 2.jpg (211.11 KiB) Viewed 6493 times

The pick ups to the right end are sprung to stay in contact with wire fingers above them which are part of the pick up assembly and insulated from the chassis. These fingers prevent the pick ups coming into contact with a bit of cosmetic pipe work soldered to the chassis. You will notice that the left hand pick up pair did not need this and keep themselves away from the chassis no problem, but the fingers idea could be adapted to prevent it if they did.

These are 36 gauge PB wire which I find a bit flimsy but this is a very small loco and these wires are very short so I used the thinner wire for the extra flexibility. I normally preferring 28 gauge (used for the "fingers" here) when I can get a bit more length.

Will

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Beer and Buckjumpers - that's a surprise!

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:23 pm

I've just gone to do a bit of late night modelling and paint the coupling rods on the tram engine. Even though they will be hidden by the side-skirts, it's nice to know that they are correct.

I have *no* vermillion paint at all!

So that's something alongside thin PB wire to go on the shopping list for Scaleforum...

I'll have to do something else now instead.

Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - To complete the set...

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:31 am

This morning I popped a set of pickups on the Y14...

Well, actually I started the process last night by cutting and shaping a length of copperclad sleeper (I knew that the remains of those EM gauge points that I built when I was sixteen would one day come in useful...) so that it fitted between the frames. I'm always doubly cautious and cut an over-generous gap. It doesn't do any harm and means that there should be absolutely no chance of a short.

Here they are laid out in the correct order to be fitted.

Y14 Pickups 003.jpg


Then they were fixed using two-part epoxy, and left to set solidly in position overnight. This is the time that you don't want the modelling pixies to come along and give them a gentle nudge whilst you're sleeping!

Y14 Pickups 004.jpg


Then finally a wipe over with some solder to tin the copper-clad (being very careful to get absolutely no flux on the steel tyres!) and fix the pickups in place.

Y14 Pickups 006.jpg


For this locomotive I'm going to wait until the body is fully painted before wiring up the motor. The reason for that is that I want to be very certain of the path of the wires before I solder them in place. I will have to route them up the sides of the gearbox and along the top of the motor, before turning them back to the contacts.

So that can wait until I can handle the whole thing as a single unit.
Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - Wiring

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:07 am

A short preamble - I really don't like doing wiring. It scares me. Which is daft, as I've a Physics A-level, and I've re-wired an entire house before, so I should be comfortable about where the pluses and the minuses have to go. But for some reason whenever it comes to wiring for models I have a mental block...

You may recall that it was quite a while ago that I finished track-laying on my "demo board" - this will be both a test track for my own use, and also a way of showing those interested in P4 modelling the different types of track that are available. A while ago I fitted the power feeds to the tracks, and was able to get something running. The next step is to fit the point motors and the uncoupling magnets.

First of all, an overview of the track-plan, drawn out in permanent marker on the top surface of the board. Push-button switches have been fitted through drilled holes to provide the ability to just press switches along a route. I thought that this would be easier, particularly for others that may have a play with it, than a more prototypical lever frame. The rotary switch in the top corner is for selecting the power supply for each of the three roads.

wiring 006.jpg


And this is what it looks like underneath. There are two separate power inputs - I wanted to keep the ones for the "trains" and the "track" separate. At the moment the intention is to run this as DC, but I suppose that there is no reason why it wouldn't work equally well for DCC train control in future, if I decide to change.

At the bottom, the rotary switch feeds the three lines of track. And at the top, the new wiring that I am now putting in. The bus-bar has the feeds to the positive side of all of the switches soldered to it already. The red wires are to the point motor switches; the pink ones to the uncoupling magnets. It's probably an unnecessary distinction, but I can do it, so I did...

wiring 004.jpg


The track plan drawn on the underneath of the board helps me identify what is what - a tip picked up from somewhere on RMWeb I think, where it was used for a 2FS layout. It's better if you use Templot to make it look smarter, but I ain't that clever :-(

wiring 002.jpg


The next step is to install the point motors themselves. For these, I'll be using functional tie-bars beneath the baseboard, and operating the point blades by means of wire running up through small holes. This is the batch of tie-bars being made out of copperclad strip.

wiring 001.jpg


So maybe I'll try fitting one of these tonight...
Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - Lesson for tonight

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:13 pm

Retro-fitting tie-bars (or stretcher bars to give them the proper name) is *never* easy when you've already laid the track, and ballasted up to a height that interferes with fitting them under the rail.

Oh, and as you tidy up the soldering on the first one, the joint breaks.

Argh! Enough is enough, for tonight...

Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - tiebars fitted

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:18 pm

And in a burst of competent soldering, all of the remaining tie-bars went easily into place :-)

tie-bar 003.jpg


That's one of them. Tomorrow I hope to fit the dropper wires to the point blades and connect it all up...

Flymo
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:36 am

Paul have you got far enough to show us a photo of the under mount tie bars. It is one area that I know I need to figure out while the seed of a layout germinates in the grey matter.

I guess the other question is what is the sections of plastrut are you using. I can see this is easily accessible here in Australia. (some of the references to curtain rail means nothing to me all those years ago)
Doug
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