Beer and Buckjumpers

[HowardGWR]

True, Andrew is a bit minimalist with his design but the detail is there if you click on the pdf symbol, gives the spacing as well

I did that but the picture stayed the same, certainly no extra info. Any idea what I am doing wrong Keith?

I assume we are talking about the thing that looks like an aeroplane propeller?

[grovenor-2685]

If you click on the link I gave it takes you direct to the pdf file.
If you go into the Exactoscale website and choose products, then 4mm track then find the sleeper base there is a pdf symbol adjacent to the words, it does look like an aeroplane propeller if your propellers have 3 blades, that will take you to the same .pdf file.
If that is not happening for you then you need to explain in detail what page you are looking at, what you are doing, and what happens as a result.
Regards
Keith

[HowardGWR]

Keith i did all that (i suppose it's more of a wind turbine than propeller) but I only get a picture that does not give the distances between the sleepers. What extra information were you referring to. My pdf image just says 9ft wide sleepers and 45 ft long? What was our colleague talking about when he mentioned hidden background info?

[grovenor-2685]

The missing info was the 9ft length which is not mentioned on the catalogue page but 'hidden' in the pdf.
Regards
Keith

[HowardGWR]

ooeeuughwwww! Thanks Keith and so prompt (glad to know i don't have a virus!).

[Paul Willis]

Or at least the postman does. Bringing with him the etches for my Great Eastern Little Sharpie 2-4-0 kit. This is from PeterK, part of the Kemilway portfolio: http://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

Having virtually forgotten about it, being some fourteen months since I placed the order and the cheque was cashed, I gave a random phone call to Kemilway, when I remembered last week. Part of the overall delay was due to me having moved house in August, and the first delivery sometime after that wasn't swept up in our postal re-direct.

But now I have it! The next step is to review what suitable castings are available from Alan Gibson to complete it, and put it into the Works queue.

One picture from the Kemilway website of what the finished model should look like.

PeterK Little Sharpie.jpg

Despite the delay, I'm really looking forward to building it...

Flymo

[Paul Willis]

After watching Jezzer, James and Stuart on the seasonal Top Gear, I returned to the workbench last night to do some more on the Y14. I must have got in the metaphorical steam of things, as it was 23.58 when I soldered the last lamp iron into place, and dunked the body into the ultrasonic bath.

And I think that this is it. I believe that I've got in place every detail from locomotive no. 643 that I could identify on the photographs in place. I used a picture of 642 for the port-side, and even between apparently sister engines in the class, I noticed one difference, in the number of handrail knobs on the side of the smokebox. There is a lot of GER standardisation, but very little consistency!

So here are some pictures of it. The blotchy colours of the metalwork are due to the use of Acidip then Neutralising Rinse to clean off the flux and oxides. It isn't actually that bad in real life...

Y14 Body 001 (Large).jpg

Y14 Body 002 (Large).jpg

Y14 Body 007 (Large).jpg

Y14 Body 013 (Large).jpg

Comments and criticisms are all very welcome. I know that the whistle is absent from the side of the safety valve, as that is polished brass and won't be fitted until after painting. Also, I know of two very small errors in the style of the components fitted, when compared to the prototype photos. However I'll keep those to myself unless someone spots them - they really are very, very minor.

Flymo

[grovenor-2685]

Its looking very good indeed and the chimney looks straight now on all bar the last pic which I assume is wide angle distortion.
If you are looking for 'picky' I am a bit concerned as to how the crew might get the sandbox lids off to fill them up. You did mention the lack of info about the sandbox fitting, worth looking for it. Could it be in one of Geoff Pembers articles?
I sold my copy of his 0-4-4T book to Michael Prince but seem to recollect similar front sandboxes.
Regards
Keith

[Andy W]

Nice work Flymo.

Regarding the Kemilway/Peter K range - do you think their delivery is now reliable? I've heard worrying stories in the past, but if they are now more dependable there are a couple of kits in their range that I'm interested in.

Andy

[dcockling]

Comments and criticisms are all very welcome.

Flymo

Hi Paul,

It looks very good, you've caught the character and style of the class very well indeed, well done.

On Keith's point, I think those rods over the sandbox lids are the operating rods of the sanding gear. You'll have seen them on Lyn Brooks' drawings; if you look at the top elevation, they are slightly in-board of the covers but I can't find a clear photograph taken from above. Also they don't have any annotations associated with them in LB's article. I seem to remember a note and diagram about these once somewhere in GE Journal, but can't find it, my memory may be faulty, but as you have them all on a searchable disk, search for 'sandbox' and see if anything turns up. (If it does please let me know.)

There's a terrific close-up picture of a Westinghouse pump on page 2 of GEJ 51 where you can see the mounting plate; not visible in most pictures.

One other thing, No 642 of the X45 order of 1899 had an H14 tender, not the S23 that comes with the kit. It's not that different but info and dimensions are in GEJ 92 page 8. Oh and plain rods rather than fluted.

I know of two very small errors in the style of the components fitted, when compared to the prototype photos. However I'll keep those to myself unless someone spots them - they really are very, very minor.

I'd guess one of them is the westinghouse pipe, which looks much finer in real life than the casting and doesn't have the wire reinforcing around it.

Well done again,
All the Best
Danny

[dcockling]

Something like this? If this is looking down on to the top of sandbox.

sanding_gear.jpg

All the Best
Danny

[Paul Willis]

Its looking very good indeed and the chimney looks straight now on all bar the last pic which I assume is wide angle distortion.
If you are looking for 'picky' I am a bit concerned as to how the crew might get the sandbox lids off to fill them up. You did mention the lack of info about the sandbox fitting, worth looking for it. Could it be in one of Geoff Pembers articles?
I sold my copy of his 0-4-4T book to Michael Prince but seem to recollect similar front sandboxes.

Thanks Keith, for the points. I was also a little confused about the sandbox arrangements. I do have a copy of the 0-4-4T book, but having gone through it last night, there are no diagrams or photographs that are any more clear than the Y14 ones that I was working from. Danny has since clarified the arrangements a little more, but this is very cruel blow-up of part of the picture of 643 is basically the typical shot that is available:

Sandbox rod.jpg

You'll see that it does appear that the rod runs above the fillers. My initial thoughts were that the caps may lift off and slide out, rather than flip back on a hinge.

Picky is good, and whilst life is too short to re-model the ones that I have on this Y14, on future locomotives I'll try and "get it all right" (tm)

Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Comments and criticisms are all very welcome.

Flymo

On Keith's point, I think those rods over the sandbox lids are the operating rods of the sanding gear. You'll have seen them on Lyn Brooks' drawings; if you look at the top elevation, they are slightly in-board of the covers but I can't find a clear photograph taken from above. Also they don't have any annotations associated with them in LB's article.

I agree with your thought that logically they should be inboard. Looking at Lyn's drawing in GEJ #36, I can't actually see the rods at all from the top elevation - they seem to be hidden under the smokebox edge. However the fillers are clearly seen and have nothing running over them, so they must be inboard. It just didn't look that way from the photo

I seem to remember a note and diagram about these once somewhere in GE Journal, but can't find it, my memory may be faulty, but as you have them all on a searchable disk, search for 'sandbox' and see if anything turns up. (If it does please let me know.)

I do indeed have them all (well, #1 to #140) on this laptop, so when I've finished with web stuff, I'll have a look... And report back, of course.

There's a terrific close-up picture of a Westinghouse pump on page 2 of GEJ 51 where you can see the mounting plate; not visible in most pictures.

Oh, that's very nice! So that's something else that I got slightly wrong, but it's some very good knowledge for the future. Not having been a GERS member of quite such <ahem> longstanding as your good self, I hadn't read that copy of the GEJ yet. Thanks for the pointer.

One other thing, No 642 of the X45 order of 1899 had an H14 tender, not the S23 that comes with the kit. It's not that different but info and dimensions are in GEJ 92 page 8. Oh and plain rods rather than fluted.

Yes, I know that, but there was lots of opportunity for it to visit Stratford for overhaul between 1899 and 1908, and receive a tender swap. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! After all, they did receive considerable numbers of swaps in later life.

I know of two very small errors in the style of the components fitted, when compared to the prototype photos. However I'll keep those to myself unless someone spots them - they really are very, very minor.

I'd guess one of them is the westinghouse pipe, which looks much finer in real life than the casting and doesn't have the wire reinforcing around it.

As you're asking, I'll point them out... The first is that the top lamp iron is of the wrong shape. It should be like this:

Top Lamp Iron.jpg

I used a simple L-shaped one, knocked up from a piece of scrap fret. The real GER ones are a much more complicated shape, that is probably cast. I may look at how they could be etched up, to get the bends in the correct places to make it look convincing.

The second point is that it seems that the two straps on the model smokebox door are further apart than on the prototype. I noticed this when I saw the position of the top strap relative to the handrail (which is in pretty much exactly the correct place on the model) in this picture:

Door Hinges.jpg

If you compare it with my model, you'll see that it's clearly lower. I only got home from work at about 9pm last night, so I haven't measured the model yet to see if I'm right on this, but I will do, just for my own satisfaction.

I'm not convinced on the Westinghouse pipe. I chose the finest one from the assortment that I had in the spares box, so perhaps with a splurge (technical term) of black and grotty paint, it won't be noticeable

Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Nice work Flymo.

Regarding the Kemilway/Peter K range - do you think their delivery is now reliable? I've heard worrying stories in the past, but if they are now more dependable there are a couple of kits in their range that I'm interested in.

Hi Andy,

I think that to put it succinctly, find out if the kit is actually there in stock, and if it is then order it there and then.

If it's not is stock, be prepared for a rather lengthy wait. Pete at Kemilway has always been very pleasant on the phone and by email, but I think that his optimistic view of delivery dates for future production needs a very big pinch of salt.

The etches do look very nice, although the real proof will only come of course when I build it up, so I was "happy" to wait this long as I had other things to work on. If you want it any kit in the near future, I would be much more cautious.

Give him a call or a mail and find out about what you are specifically interested in, and if he can put his hand on it straightaway, you should have no problem.

Cheers
Flymo

[essdee]

Hi Paul,
A lovely model of an attractive prototype coming together there! Hope the following two tips may be of use.

For lamp irons of any shape, I use brass boiler band strip (from the Gibson etches with five strips in my case), doubled over and crimped tight with flat faced pliers before soldering 188 deg - don't separate from the strip till you have fettled up. Tom Mallard's article on the 3F a while ago in MRJ included a diagram of his own folding pattern - though Tom uses custom-prepared strip I recall. I fettle this with files to narrow it and give flat side faces, and shape the tapered/slightly rounded top of the 'prong'. Latterly, for those exposed smokebox top irons, I have added a third fold to give the mounting spigot a 'three-ply' strength - I always mount the lamp iron in a hole, using 145 solder, to discourage accidental detachment.

Sand box linkages - ah yes, a wry smile! I spent ages earleir this year peering at shadows in photos trying to determine them for the S&D 7F. So I am fairly used to 'reading' them in other pics, and suspect GER and SDJR sand would have been not so different in trickling qualities. Like Danny, I would expect the spindle for the sandbox 'valve' to lie near the longitudinal centre line of the sandbox, with the operating crank extending towards the smokebox, the linkage thence running snug against the smokebox, neatly out of the way, and allowing easy removal of the sandbox lid, which would be in front of it.

There may well be linkages across the frames as well, so that both sandboxes dispense in unison; the 7F was a 'great delight' in this respect, as the rodding ran very visibly down the RHS firebox, across the frames between the rear sandboxes, forward to the front pair, then back across the frames. Lots cranks, lots little holes, lots bargee monologue.

Have fun, and a relaxing Christmas etc; look forward to seeing her completed!

Steve

[Eastern]

Hi Flymo,

I like the model and I still have a Gibson J15 under construction myself.

Just to add some information to that already given.

As suggested by Danny earlier there was a sketch in a letter in GEJ 88 on page 47 of the type of sanding gear arrangement for the Y14 with a cross shaft from one frame to the other to operate from one side only. So far as the arrangement to miss the sandbox covers is concerned, this followed the arrangement shown by Danny in his sketch. You can see this if you have a front end view of a Y14 which shows a small crank attached to the sanding valve itself and the actual rods running close in to the smokebox wrapper.

For the Westinghouse hose, I bought a batch of lost wax brass castings some time ago from Branchlines (no conection) which were a very good representation. They may still be available.

Anyway happy modelling.

Eastern

[dcockling]

Just to add some information to that already given.

As suggested by Danny earlier there was a sketch in a letter in GEJ 88 on page 47
Eastern

Thanks for the Info Eastern,

Guess which edition of GEJ I can't find.

All the Best
Danny

[dcockling]

Y14_1.jpg

N31_1.jpg

N31_2.jpg

And

A front on view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:J15_SHERINGHAM_NNR.jpg

All in all the best I could find
Danny

[Paul Willis]

First of all, thanks to all of you for the kind comments, and the enormous help with deciphering the sanding arrangements on these locomotives.

Whilst hunting through the Journals in search of "sandbox" as a reference term, I did come across one mention in GERJ 30 that made me smile as it described perfectly the problem. It is in the introduction to "Detail for GE Modellers", a series that never seems to have fulfilled its true potential. I quote "... the limitations of 4mm scale inevitably means that a mudhole clamp or sandbox lid or tank filler clamp can appear as little more than an indecipherable squiggle, the modeller who wants to include such things, or that little shadowy projection he can just see in the photograph he is building from inevitably must seek his data elsewhere. "

It has indeed been an indecipherable squiggle!

I don't feel that any of the period photographs would have really enlightened me that much, but Danny's sketch and the reference to Journal 88 by Eastern has really clarified things.

Thanks very much! I promise to do it accurately on the next locomotive...

Flymo

[Paul Willis]

A few pieces of brass strip, and couple of bits of bent wire, and a rather impressionistic detailing of the chassis has come together.

Y14 Chassis 011.jpg

Now to find the instructions for my High Level gearbox kit and get some movement into it...

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Just when it was all going so well... Actually, the two glitches that I've hit that will disrupt progress for a little while are not the fault of the Alan Gibson kit. It's solely due to the way that I'm building it using CSB suspension, and the learning points involved in that. Again, no fault of the theory or practice of CSBs, just that they need alternative approaches.

The first glitch arose last night when I started putting together a High Level RoadRunner+ gearbox to use in the Y14. I picked up a couple of these at Scaleforum, knowing that they are lovely quality items. However, when i got it part-built, I tried it between the frames and...

Glitch 1 (Large).jpg

The gearbox is too wide to go between the axleboxes. I've already thinned as much as I dare from the back without losing the High Level beam-fixing tags, but there is still a lot to lose before it will go. So I've put the chassis to one side, and will phone in an order for a couple of SlimLiner+ gearboxes after the New Year.

I may also get chance to pick up one of the High Level mounting point jigs for CSBs at the same time. They were so popular at Scaleforum that Chris had sold out before I could get to his stand.

With progress on the loco stalled, I thought that I would have a crack at the tender. This should be pretty straightforward, and again would have CSB springing all round. I have more High Level 2mm axleboxes and hornblocks in stock, so the first thing that I did was get them out for mounting in the (inner) tender chassis frames.

Glitch 2 (Large).jpg

The Alan Gibson frames come pre-milled with cutouts for the standard AG hornblocks for springing. Unfortunately, these holes are actually larger than the entire High Level hornblock, including the mounting plate.

So I'll have to make up some frame sides of my own, and go from there. Not enormously difficult, but a little tedious with a piercing saw. So that's for another day. In the meantime, I'm going to knock up something quick and easy...

Flymo

[Philip Hall]

Paul,

Rather than make up new frames perhaps I could suggest folding up some strip into a U shape and soldering it all the way around the milled hornblock slots? if you use the right thickness of strip hopefully the High Level hornguides will slip in nicely. Seems a shame to waste the frames.

Philip

[Will L]

The first glitch arose last night when I started putting together a High Level RoadRunner+ gearbox to use in the Y14. I picked up a couple of these at Scaleforum, knowing that they are lovely quality items. However, when i got it part-built, I tried it between the frames and...

... The gearbox is too wide to go between the axleboxes. I've already thinned as much as I dare from the back without losing the High Level beam-fixing tags, but there is still a lot to lose before it will go. So I've put the chassis to one side, and will phone in an order for a couple of SlimLiner+ gearboxes after the New Year.

Ah... I have pointed out in the past that there are problems matching Highlevel gearboxes and horn blocks, so I'm rather disappointed you're surprised. My next post will go into exactly how I did it on the J10, so I don't really want to go into details here. Although the gear box is done, it may be a while until I can complete the post as I currently have wheel issues. Lets just say that the gear box is no longer as Chris Gibson intended, I have to say that fitting a SlimLiner is probably an easier solution.

Will

[Jol Wilkinson]

Paul,

you could try LRM cast brass hornblocks. I think they are wider than the HL ones. If you let me know the width of the frame slots, I'll check a couple from my own collection tomorrow.

Jol

[Paul Willis]

Ah... I have pointed out in the past that there are problems matching Highlevel gearboxes and horn blocks, so I'm rather disappointed you're surprised. My next post will go into exactly how I did it on the J10, so I don't really want to go into details here. Although the gear box is done, it may be a while until I can complete the post as I currently have wheel issues. Lets just say that the gear box is no longer as Chris Gibson intended, I have to say that fitting a SlimLiner is probably an easier solution.

Hi Will,

Yes, both you and DavidM (on his Brassmasters Super D, on your CSB thread) have mentioned the need to thin the hornblocks. I see that you used a DriveStretcher to reach the driven axle.

In my defence, I started this chassis and fitted all of the axleboxes at Missenden, back in March. As this was the first CSB chassis that I'd tried, I wasn't really thinking ahead to how I'd power the damn thing! Lesson learned, and next time will be different. I do like your suggestion of using standard 1/8th top-hat bearings with the High Level wire mounts. In effect, they become almost like the Bill Bedford bearing holders used in his sprung wagon chassis.

I'll wait for the SlimLiner to turn up, and go from there.

Cheers
Flymo