Beer and Buckjumpers

[Knuckles]

Well, on my only completed split axle project I built the loco chassis (0-6-0) in the usual way but fitted no pickups at all. Instead I built the 6-wheel tender with split axles and, as the decoder is also in the tender, it was no trouble at all wiring everything up. I also put in a 4700uf capacitor. It all works very well.

DT

Hmm, could you please explain how to put one in, where to wire it etc. Maybe in a PM or different thread as to not derail it.

I tried doing similar before but was swamped with too much conflicting information. Websites were saying to wire two together to stop them blowing them up so I did so and the engine just sat there sapped. So I sacked the idea.


And the cutting and shutting of axles - oh yeah. Forgot about that, now I remember the 'other' thing that originally put me off.

[Will L]

Truth is, there are no ways of providing pick-ups that don't have a "faf" element in there somewhere. I think that perhaps David's split axle tender looks the easiest, assuming you do have a tender of course. (Tender on CSBs of course to ensure good six wheel contact).

Personally my early experience was with live chassis loco's (i.e. pick-ups on one side only, Romford uninsulated wheels on the other). This lead to me developing a significant allergic reaction to live chassis and the development of my own take on wiper pick ups on both side which I have explained on here before. While what I do may seem more complicated than perhaps it needs to be, I know how to make it work reliably, so for me it represents minimum "faf".

So when it comes to it, the way that works for you is always best, and, no method will work reliably until you have sorted out the skills required to do it well.

[dal-t]

So when it comes to it, the way that works for you is always best, and, no method will work reliably until you have sorted out the skills required to do it well.

Searching for that missing 'Like' button again - nail hit on head, apposite saying quoted , debate suitably distilled , carry on doing what suits you best!

[David Thorpe]

Hmm, could you please explain how to put one in, where to wire it etc.

I assume that you're referring to the capacitor. It was actually very simple, if only because i was using a Zimo MX634 decoder which has two wires all ready to connect to external storage. I merely soldered one of these wires to the positive of the capacitor and the other to the negative (making sure they were the right ones) and that was it.

And the cutting and shutting of axles - oh yeah. Forgot about that, now I remember the 'other' thing that originally put me off

As for the axles, I used 2mm steel tube from Eileens. Shove a piece of piano wire, suitably shrouded in super glue or something similar, into the tube, test there's no connection between the piano wire and the tube (easier said than done), and leave to harden. Once fully set, cut the tube all the way round in the centre, but not the piano wire, and fill the gap with araldite. Leave to harden again, then cut the axle to length with the gap, hopefully, just where you want it. To be fair I wasn't entirely confident as to the axle's strength, but it seems to have done OK. It's much easier doing 1/8 inch axles this way.

And yes, Will, the tender chassis was built using CSBs - apart from anything else they were ideal for use with split axles in this situation.

DT

[Knuckles]

I was referring to the capacitor yes, thanks for explaining.
I was trying it on a DC system though as I was chasing after that 'olde bodge' of yesteryear.

Got to admit, Will; your pick ups are a work of art.

[Paul Willis]

Paul

Like the J65, who's kit is that. One small hint, you have the water filer caps on the wrong way round. The screw down catch fitting goes to the front and is secured to the front face of the tank by a small bracket at the top. The Westinghouse brake cylinder/air tank under the rear buffer isn't entirely right either but hay, who can see it down there anyway.

Morning Will...

Thanks for all the input. The kit is the Connoisseur Models one. As usual, shot down from 7mm and very simple to put together. I have spoken with Jim about running off some more of these. Unfortunately the moulds for the castings are shot. They were used for all of the GER locomotives, so had taken a beating. However Jim has said that he may consider making new moulds if there is enough interest.

I wondered for ages about the mounting of the tank fillers. The instructions are very unclear on the fitting of them. There isn't a separate direction about them, and the side elevation diagram doesn't show the handles on it to determine the direction. I also had a number of reference photos with me, none of which showed it clearly either.

What decided it for me is the hole that the casting stem fits into. If I fitted them what I know is now the correct way around, the handle support overhung the tank front by about a millimetre. Fitting them the way around that they were, it all seemed to fit, in the absence of any evidence.

So they have now come off!

IMG_2310.JPG

In the reverse of attaching them, I stuck the RSU probe on them, whilst trying to lever the edge up with a scalpel. The 3V setting didn't touch them, so I whacked it up to 4V and with some sparks (from trying to move something with current flowing through it!) off they came... You can see the holes that I mounted them into, thinking that the location points were the best reference.

So when I next have time for a spot of modelling, I'll clean up the tank tops and locate them properly.

The placing of the Westinghouse reservoir was a deliberate move on my part. It sits squarely in the dead section of the spacer between the two live frames. I know that it is slightly out of place to where it should be as that was the compromise I made to keep this first attempt at split frames as simple as possible. As you say, it's mostly out of sight in the general "murk" under the cab.

I'm becoming very pleased with this little locomotive. Missenden has given me a real motivation to crack on and finish it.
Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

And the cutting and shutting of axles - oh yeah. Forgot about that, now I remember the 'other' thing that originally put me off.

Using the Branchlines jig and kits of axles to make them was not particularly painful. Just follow the instructions for making them. These are the axles with the epoxy glue introduced to them, and then subsequently clamped in the jig to keep them straight.

IMG_8332.JPG

IMG_8333.JPG

I wanted to be absolutely sure that they would set and not bend or move when I unclamped them. To do this, rather than just leave the axles overnight I left them for 72 hours. These are the finished ones.

IMG_8338.JPG

For use, all I have had to do is clean up a bit of excess glue and cut them to length.

HTH
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

On my latest split chassis venture (a SE&CR H) I have abandoned the spider and, instead, used a brass washer round the axle. Using a 0.4mm drill bit drill right through the tyre, front to back, and join the resulting hole to the washer using 0.4mm wire. Only one such wire is needed as the set up is unlikely to fail once successfully completed. Needless to say in soldering the joint it needs to be very clean, the iron needs to be extremely hot, the flux very corrosive and the heat sinks most abundant (wet tissues). Don't linger and clean up thoroughly afterwards to remove the flux. Nick the inside of the washer to ensure engagement with the axle and groove its face to take the wire.

Thanks Richard. I might well use that technique when/if I do another split frame chassis. It certainly sound like less trouble than the wire spider method.

Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

What a fantastic day! Everyone that I spoke to was enjoying the atmosphere, the demonstrations and the layouts.

And I was pleased that I was finally able to pick this up

IMG_2328.JPG

Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Although feeling the heat from the sun today, I'm not sure of the accuracy of saying such things... It's been a great summer the doing things with the family, from messing about with motorbikes, and generally all those other things which mean there is a temporary lull in the pace of modelling. I still done one or two things over the period since I last posted, and more of that in future days.

However two things in the last two weekends have inspired me to dust off the modelling bench and make a serious start on one or two unfinished models.

The first was Scaleforum where I was on a demonstration desk talking about how to model wagons in the pre-grouping period. I had some great conversations with visitors over the weekend, not only about period modelling but also about things as diverse as what types of couplings to use, what is the best type of suspension, and how best to do weathering (including a swift hands on demonstration of the use of washes on the sides of wagons to simulate that lovely Edwardian grime).

Of course, one of the best ways to learn weathering techniques is to attend Tim Shackleton's weathering course at Missenden Abbey. It was the Missenden autumn weekend last weekend, and as usual I participated in the 4 mm loco modelling group. It was a great bunch of people to spend the weekend with and was led in great humour by Tony Gee.

Missenden Autumn 2016 01.JPG

If you've never been to Missenden before, here's a few snapshots of what I was working on and how it was done.

This was the set up in the loco building room. The light available, both artificial and natural, in the room was superb and I very much hope we'll be returning there on future courses.

Missenden Autumn 2016 02.JPG

As usual, I had my portable workbench with me. It's been a great addition to my toolkit, enabling me to take it to demonstrate at Scaleforum and then on to Missenden. I also had a few comments over both weekends from people offering to beg, buy, borrow or steal my beloved toolchest from me. Alas, I'm not letting go of it, and you can go and find your own for twenty quid in a junk shop.

Missenden Autumn 2016 03.JPG

I'd taken along to separate loco kits, both of which I'd started at previous Missendens. Both of them are also in the final stages of completion with the chassis fundamentally builds and the bodies to different stages of finishing. On the left is a London Road Models LNWR Samson kit, which really only needs motor rising before it is finished. On the right is the kit I chose to take further this weekend, which is a Connoisseur Models GER Buckjumper.

I'd taken it to the point where I had a rolling chassis with a motor installed, and apart completed body that needed detailing. It was this I chose to work on for the weekend.

Missenden Autumn 2016 04.JPG

I'll come back to what I did over the weekend in my next post.

Cheers,
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

So after setting the scene, what did I manage to achieve over the weekend on my Buckjumper?

I'd last done a major piece of work on the locomotive at the Missenden weekend in spring 2015. Since then I've done a little bit of tidying up on the workbench at home but nothing major. The stage the locomotive had reached was that I constructed the shorted out wheels for the split frame chassis, put the chassis together, quartered the wheels, and made sure it rolled freely as an unpowered chassis. I had put together a High Level gearbox, reduced in width thanks to the inspiration of Steve Duckworth in encouraging me to take a piercing saw to such a lovely piece of engineering. It now sat cleanly in the insulated centre section of the driving axle.

So the first thing to do this Missenden was to see if all of my efforts had been in vain in my first attempt at a split chassis. I cut a couple of lengths of electrical wire and threaded one end through the terminals on the motor, then soldered the other end to either side of one of the PCB spaces in the chassis.

Connecting an ordinary 12 volt controller borrowed from John Gowers to my short 6 inch length of P4 test track I gently turned the power knob up and to my amazement the motor ran. It's not conclusive proof that split chassis work for me, as I still see a number of problems with them that need to be solved, but it certainly surprised me that it worked first time. Apparently I was very happy for the rest of Friday evening and wouldn't stop talking about it, according to the other members of the group.

This shows the chassis sitting on the length of track at the top of my workbench. As I said, the wiring is just a lash up and the more permanent arrangement will be longer wires to slip the motor inside the boiler and also the inclusion of a DCC chip.

Missenden Autumn 2016 05.JPG

The next stage on the chassis was to fit the brake rigging.

As the steel tyred wheels were already in place along with the motor and gearbox, and although I could have dropped them out I needed them in place to judge where the brake blocks were going to go, I decided to forego my usual technique of soldering and resort to superglue. I had opened out the holes in the brake shoes and in the brake rigging to 0.45 mm to be able to use matching nickel silver wire to form the brake rigging from one side of the chassis to the other.

This whole process took quite some time for two reasons. Firstly the pre-etched shape of the brake shoes didn't match the profile of the tyres of the wheels, so there was quite a lot of filing required to make sure that when the brake shoes were fitted to the upper mounting wires they were located in the correct place. The second element was that because the brake rigging came in separate sections I wanted to make sure that each section was correct correctly located and soundly fixed in place before moving onto the next. So it was a case of glue one section, do something else/go and visit another group/have a cup of coffee whilst the glue dried and then return to the next.

This picture is of the chassis with almost all the brake rigging in place, apart from the final length. This turned out to be the most problematic because the holes at the end of the rigging were over etched and in actual fact were not holes but merely cup-shaped stubs. This meant there was a little bit of swearing and much bodging with lace pins (thanks to James Dickie for the loan thereof) to get it into place whilst the glue dried. It wasn't entirely successful as when I started working on the locomotive on Sunday evening after returning home, this section fell off due to the brittleness of the superglue, so I resorted to a slightly chunkier quantity of 24-hour epoxy resin to put this particular section back in place.

Missenden Autumn 2016 06.JPG

With the chassis done as far as I could, it was onto the body but that is for next time…

Cheers,
Flymo

[stevecarr]

Good work Flymo.

It would be interesting to know what work you did to the gearbox as I have found this a troublesome area in the past?

Cheers.

[Paul Willis]

Good work Flymo.

It would be interesting to know what work you did to the gearbox as I have found this a troublesome area in the past?

Cheers.

Hi Steve,

Certainly... It was actually quite straightforward once I had the courage to take a piercing saw to one of Chris's lovely gearboxes

It involved making two cuts in the final drive stage and doing a "cut and shut" job, as they would say in the motor trade. I use the "xxx +" gearboxes with the separate final stage, so this is simple to do. You probably couldn't slim down the entire gearbox because of the need to fit in all the gears, and the correct spacing to screw it to the motor.

I didn't actually put the description on my own blog, but it was a discussion on a separate thread over here http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4702. You'll find I've posted a few pictures of the process.

Cheers
Flymo

[stevecarr]

Thanks mate

I'll stiffen the sinews etc next time I'm working in that area.

Steve

[RobM]

Paul, I've meant to ask before but what is the make and colour of the paint you used on 'Chaucer"?
Cheers Rob.

[Winander]

It's not conclusive proof that split chassis work for me, as I still see a number of problems with them that need to be solved, but it certainly surprised me that it worked first time.

Hi Paul,

Would you care to elaborate as I am about to start one?

thanks

[Paul Willis]

It's not conclusive proof that split chassis work for me, as I still see a number of problems with them that need to be solved, but it certainly surprised me that it worked first time.

Hi Paul,

Would you care to elaborate as I am about to start one?

thanks

Hi Richard,

Certainly... I'll start by saying I'm not permanently anti- the idea of split chassis, it's just I'd need convincing there are better ways of doing things than I've used this time round.

The main thing is I'm not convinced about the best method for shorting out the wheels. This time, I used etched brass shorting strips.

I initially had problems soldering the strips onto the tyre. These are Alan Gibson steel tyred wheels, and despite using the ultra-aggressive Carrs brown label flux and a very hot iron, they took several attempts to bond securely. Some of them pinged off when I pushed the wheels onto the axles, which was annoying as the wheels were painted at that point. Obviously you can't linger with the iron whilst soldering them as because of the plastic centres to the wheels. Perhaps the answer will lie in using nickel silver tyred wheels, as I understand Ultrascales are.

The second problem is setting the back-to-back accurately - because you now have a soldered strip which makes a 0.xx mm packing piece between the backs of the tyres. So you are reduced to trying to set the BtB on the edge of the wheel, rather than across the whole face of it.

That is compounded when wheelsets develop a wobble. Despite using a GW Models quartering jig to set the quartering, and press the wheels on square, there is still a noticeable wobble in the centre wheelset. I spent quite a bit of time this weekend trying to chase the wobble out of this pair of wheels, but only being able to apply the gauge at one point on the tyre meant it turned into an exercise of chasing yourself around in circles.

Some things have been no problem - the use of PCB spacers rather than the etched ones in the kit was absolutely fine. Likewise the insulating of the various bits which span the chassis has gone well enough. There will be more on that to come soon in writing up what I did at Missenden. And the making and using of the split axles was all very problem free.

So the main thing is being able to use the wheels as a normal insulated set. I have a couple of ideas on how I could do things differently.

- don't use mechanically added shorting, but use the conductive silver paint which is available. I have some of this, which I used to flood the joint between the shorting strip and the axle, to make sure it conducted well. I will experiment with how well it works to short out the wheel by painting the whole of the back and sides of the spokes with the paint. This will be my preferred route.

- alternatively, try the approach of using fine fuse wire for the shorting. I'm thinking this could be soldered to the inside edge of the tyre so it doesn't protrude, and gently melted into the back of a spoke to achieve the same result. The main thing will be to produce a wheel which doesn't have anything sticking out to mess up using it.

Of course, there'll be an engineer along in a moment to tell me to bloody well shut up moaning and just mill the whole thing from solid brass

Hope this helps,
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Paul, I've meant to ask before but what is the make and colour of the paint you used on 'Chaucer"?
Cheers Rob.

Hi Rob,

I haven't overlooked this - I just forgot to look in my paints box before leaving the house this morning.

It's a Humbrol enamel, and it's a fairly bright brick orange. When I initially sprayed the pug, it caused shock in a few people...

[Edit: the Drag'n'drop picture function seems to be bu**ered - technical term - and the pictures aren't displaying in the correct order in the post. There should be two in raw paint, then one of it weathered and one of the prototype]

IMG_6988.JPG

DSC_4763 (Large).JPG

It's all done in the weathering to let the colour of the paint down, and knock it back to the degree of the prototype photo I worked from:

Pug build 072.jpg

Pug build 067.JPG

I'll dig that paint number out for you, but it may not be until after the weekend...

Cheers
Flymo

[RobM]

Thanks Paul, will be a while before I build any locos for Woodville but they will be along the lines of 'Ribblesdale'………heavily rusted and caked in clay, coal dust and soot.
Rob

[Winander]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for your thorough reply - I hadn't considered the back to back. The measurement should be taken on the tyre regardless and I have been reading Tim Venton's workbench and he files the tyre to recess the shorting strip (which he tins beforehand) and I assume he files the joint to level the shorting strip to the back of the tyre. I use Powerflow flux to solder steel turnout crossings and do no more than wipe it off when it is still liquid. My crossings made over 12 months ago have never shown signs of corrosion.

I don't see how the shorting strip could cause the wheel wobble unless the soldering did some damage.

thanks again

[Paul Townsend]

Paul, have you considered using Gibson brass centred wheels?
Admittedly they are a limited sub-range which is GWR biased, but some may suit you.

As Gibson wheels, pre Colin Seymour , had a tendency for the tyre to come loose, Tim V always took the tyres off and reglued, this gives a good opportunity to file a groove and tin the slot for later shorting wire or strip.

Current wheels are more secure so tyre removal is less desirable.

[Paul Willis]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for your thorough reply - I hadn't considered the back to back. The measurement should be taken on the tyre regardless and I have been reading Tim Venton's workbench and he files the tyre to recess the shorting strip (which he tins beforehand) and I assume he files the joint to level the shorting strip to the back of the tyre. I use Powerflow flux to solder steel turnout crossings and do no more than wipe it off when it is still liquid. My crossings made over 12 months ago have never shown signs of corrosion.

I don't see how the shorting strip could cause the wheel wobble unless the soldering did some damage.

thanks again

And thanks to you Richard for passing on some possible solutions. As I mentioned, I'm not entirely against the idea of split frames. I simply found out they weren't _quite_ as easy to do as some of the more ardent advocates make out.

I like the idea of recessing the tyre to take the shorting strip. If you did that across the tyre, and something similar to the spoke, then the back-to-back measurements should be preserved. I may give it a try on the next split chassis I build. However I'm going to experiment in advance with this silver conductive paint that I have and see whether covering the entire back of the wheel will provide sufficient conductivity for it to work effectively. I have plenty of spare wheels to test this with so shall dig out my Round Tuit later today.

Regarding the wobble on the wheels, I don't believe the spokes have moved or melted away from the tyre. I think it is the classic issue of the wheel not quite going on the end of the axle squarely. I'm sure that a patient session of tweaking gently the tyre one way or the other will sort things out satisfactorily. It was just this highlighted the issue regarding setting the back-to-back measurement easily.

Thanks again for the thoughts. It's all good input to make this easier.
Cheers,
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Paul, have you considered using Gibson brass centred wheels?
Admittedly they are a limited sub-range which is GWR biased, but some may suit you.

As Gibson wheels, pre Colin Seymour , had a tendency for the tyre to come loose, Tim V always took the tyres off and reglued, this gives a good opportunity to file a groove and tin the slot for later shorting wire or strip.

Current wheels are more secure so tyre removal is less desirable.

Hi Paul,

I hadn't considered the new Gibson brass centred wheels as I understand they need a lathe in order to be able to true them up properly. However I'm not certain on that. I'm sure I've read an article about them in either the News or in MRJ.

I'll have to dig it out and have a read.
Cheers,
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Paul, I've meant to ask before but what is the make and colour of the paint you used on 'Chaucer"?
Cheers Rob.

Hi Rob,

I've dug the tin of paint out now

It's Humbrol Matt number 82. Be warned - it's very bright when sprayed on a whole model!

Cheers
Flymo

[RobM]

Thanks Paul…….
Rob