Beer and Buckjumpers

[Philip Hall]

Paul,

I think the most up to date info on the layout came in MRJ 150(?), when Iain and Bob (Barlow) wrote about the line's history.

Philip

[Paul Willis]

Paul,

I think the most up to date info on the layout came in MRJ 150(?), when Iain and Bob (Barlow)

Hi Philip,

Thanks for that - I'd forgotten about that update, and it does have some lovely pictures in it. I had a quick flick through it on Monday night.

It does mention that the Orford Haven main ESLR layout was sold off, lock, stock and barrel, to someone whose name I didn't recognise and forget now, so presumably that was where it disappeared from the exhibitable scene.

Just seeing the names of Butley, Orford and so on whilst driving around brought me straight back to the memories of it.

Cheers
Flymo

[Jan]

Ah.... Butley Mills. Cracking layout. Nicely observed, well modelled, and cunningly awkward to operate. Just like the Taw Vale Light Railway
(Miffed-with-self-mode ON) should have tried for it when it was up for sale (Miffed-with-self-mode OFF).

WRT Orford Haven, I recall there was some talk of a permanent exhibit being made of it at the time. As John Lydon said:

"I could be wrong"

Cheers

Jan

[Philip Hall]

Paul and Jan

I think the ESLR went to a Dr Paul Holmes - not sure if that's the same Paul Holmes who had the lovely Welsh NG layout at Scaleforum a couple of years back - and I believe some kind of museum was planned. But these things are always difficult; the late Ken Northwood's 'North Devonshire' was a candidate for such things after Ken died, but nothing seemed to come of it. I wonder what happened to that?

As Jan says, operating was entertaining stuff; I remember helping with Orford Haven at Ipswich and later at Imrex (where, incidentally, I took the picture of Bob and Iain which appeared in the recent MRJ article) and never quite got my head around some of the wiring. Not sure Iain and Bob did, either, come to that... As for my old 'Taw Vale', well of course that now lives across the pond with one of our esteemed moderators. At the time, I had no idea anyone else was interested...

Philip

[Paul Willis]

WRT Orford Haven, I recall there was some talk of a permanent exhibit being made of it at the time. As John Lydon said:

"I could be wrong"

"I could be right..."

I remember being at a gig by PiL at the Birmingham Odeon when I was about 15-16 years old. I now have the words to "Rise" running around my head all evening!

I've had a couple of late nights in the office (to make up time from some time touring the more remote bits of Dutch waterways last week - don't ask!) so I haven't had chance to read more of the ESLR. I aim to rectify that this weekend...

However just the thought of it has inspired me to move towards crystallising the plans for my new layout. The fact that we move house at the end of August and I get a dedicated study/railway room means that it becomes much closer to reality. More on the concept soon...

In the meantime, I should get on with a test run of the resuscitated Pug, and finish my first CSB locomotive.

Flymo

[Horsetan]

....On Tuesday I had a card through the door saying that the Royal Mail had a package for me to sign for....

....despite you probably being in at the time.

[Paul Willis]

I was hoping to get a good few hours of modelling in today...

Anne is away racing sidecars in South Wales, and apart from a couple of hours over lunch to visit some bee-keeping friends, I was expecting a day of peace and quiet to finally knock a couple of things off. However I didn't anticipate the modelling bug striking my ten year old stepson so hard today. A friend of ours gave him an old Tamiya kit for a Ducati 916 (the same bike that I have).

So I've spent most of the morning and afternoon holding parts, cutting out components, and generally being a gopher! Pretty much all of it he can do himself, but he does like the company

Anyway, I'm not really complaining. He's shown a skill and patience level far beyond what I was expecting. This is the result so far:

Bens Ducati 002.jpg

It's about five inches long, and has exactly the same components as the real thing, so he's had me going "that's a crankcase breather, that's a steering damper" and so on...

For me, I was frustrated because:

(1) I forgot that I'd switched my mini-drill into reverse to do some burnishing, so the small drills I was using to make holes for handrail knobs on my J15 were going nowhere, and particularly after I snapped the drills...

(2) Whilst spraying track for my demo board, the paint well fell off the side of my airbrush, so that was a clearing up job...

(3) I took the Pug back out of its box where I put it for the loctite on the gearwheel to set, and found that I hadn't re-done as much to it as I thought.

Oh well, in reality, it's been a lovely day! Hope that yours was as well...

[Wizard of the Moor]

For a minute there I wondered why you had covered your garage floor with a giant cutting mat

Good on yer fer being a gopher.

[Paul Willis]

For a minute there I wondered why you had covered your garage floor with a giant cutting mat

Good on yer fer being a gopher.

Nah... My garage floor is carpeted

Everytime we have some replacement carpets in the house, I keep the old stuff and offcuts and put them down. When they're soaked with oil, petrol or whatever, then they just go in the skip and some more go down.

It makes life a lot easier to work on the bikes, saves the old knees and even makes finding dropped bolts easier!

Flymo

[Paul Willis]

It's been a few weeks since I last made a post. I'm afraid that's because I've been busy with other things - both Scalefour Society matters, advertising the Scaleforum exhibition in September, and more importantly preparing for our house move that will take place in two weeks time. That means that I get a dedicated study cum railway room

The Pug has made some progress since I replaced the axle after the unfortunate Loctite Incident. It has been put on a rolling road, and shows a slight limp that I need to eliminate. To help the running and road-holding, I also needed to add some additional weight to the kit chassis. The normal model has a large cast weight in the tank, and this is replaced in the High Level model with the motor and gears, to give the benefit of clearing the cab and allowing full backhead detail to be seen.

I used lead sheet to pack up the free corners, cut to size with a scalpel and snips, and held in place with either superglue or epoxy resin. This photo shows how it was done.

PugWeight 001.jpg

The locations are:

1 - under the cab, next to the reversing rod
2 - under the cab, behind the rear valance
3 - in the front chassis "box" between the cylinders. This has a section cut out to allow a screwdriver to the chassis mounting screw
4 - inside the coal bunkers on either side of the cab. There was a need to be careful here not to intrude into the area of the floor fixings
5 - two curved strips placed under the roof, and glued out of sight.

Together, they've brought the weight up to 76 grams. Probably not as heavy as the original model was, but a definite improvement. Let's see how it runs when it's back together.

[Paul Willis]

In the background, behind my exploits with the High Level Pug, I've been building an Alan Gibson kit of a J15, or more accurately a Great Eastern Y14, as it will be in condition suitable for circa 1908.

I'm now at the detailing stage of the body, and I've found on the fret these mystery parts - four times part #42 :

Mystery part.jpg

They look like washout covers for the boiler. However there is no mention of a part #42 anywhere in the instructions, nor do they show on the exploded diagram, which is intended to cover the parts not mentioned in the text.

Fortunately, it seems like they were a not an original GER feature, so I can safely ignore them. I can't see them evident on any of the period photos that I have from the GERS Journal. But does anyone know if my assumptions are correct?

Flymo

[Will L]

I've found on the fret these mystery parts - four times part #42 :

They look like washout covers for the boiler. However there is no mention of a part #42 anywhere in the instructions, nor do they show on the exploded diagram, which is intended to cover the parts not mentioned in the text.

Fortunately, it seems like they were a not an original GER feature, so I can safely ignore them. I can't see them evident on any of the period photos that I have from the GERS Journal. But does anyone know if my assumptions are correct? Flymo

Now that's an interesting question Paul, which I will have to solve for myself one of these days when I go back to building loco's that suit me rather than the CAG layout. So I too have had a good look round. I have singularly failed to find anything terribly helpful on J15 photo's but, the GER being a railway that practised standardisation, I have also had a good look at F3/4/5/6 and E4's which carried very similar boilers.

The upshot is that I have found a few BR days E4 photo's in Yerdon that seem to show washout plug covers, which may or may not have been a squared off oval and placed two a side. No pre nationalisation photo's show this feature.

Then I got sensible and looked at my J15 kit. This was purchased a good few yaers ago now, when Alan G first produced it. In there I found a RAILDATA GA drawing by Lyn Brooks. The second page of which has a scrap view showing "Later Arrangement of wash out plugs" which would appear to correspond with part 42. I could scan you a copy if you want.

Just as interesting was the discovery that, in GER and early LNER periods, there were no visible washout plugs on the firebox/boiler sides at all. In the 1930s, square ended screw in plugs, just under the handrail, began to appear. These eventually changed again, in BR days, to the covers described above.

But that leaves the question of where they were in GER days? Presumably they must have had washout plugs somewhere. On the backhead, or on the firebox below footplate level, or where?

Will

[Paul Willis]

Now that's an interesting question Paul, which I will have to solve for myself one of these days when I go back to building loco's that suit me rather than the CAG layout. So I too have had a good look round. I have singularly failed to find anything terribly helpful on J15 photo's but, the GER being a railway that practised standardisation, I have also had a good look at F3/4/5/6 and E4's which carried very similar boilers.

The upshot is that I have found a few BR days E4 photo's in Yerdon that seem to show washout plug covers, which may or may not have been a squared off oval and placed two a side. No pre nationalisation photo's show this feature.

Then I got sensible and looked at my J15 kit. This was purchased a good few yaers ago now, when Alan G first produced it. In there I found a RAILDATA GA drawing by Lyn Brooks. The second page of which has a scrap view showing "Later Arrangement of wash out plugs" which would appear to correspond with part 42. I could scan you a copy if you want.

Just as interesting was the discovery that, in GER and early LNER periods, there were no visible washout plugs on the firebox/boiler sides at all. In the 1930s, square ended screw in plugs, just under the handrail, began to appear. These eventually changed again, in BR days, to the covers described above.

But that leaves the question of where they were in GER days? Presumably they must have had washout plugs somewhere. On the backhead, or on the firebox below footplate level, or where?

Will

Thanks for all the background on that. I also couldn't find any pictures of them on GER photos, and that is the period that I'm modelling.

You are, of course, completely correct that the scrap view of the Lyn Brooks drawing shows these washout plugs clearly. The diagram was also included in the instructions with the new run of kits, as well as the original ones. In my defence, it's on the page that has the BR specification J15 on it, and not the early GER Y14 which I'm modelling, so I didn't really look at it. There are lots of scribbles on the GER period page!

Also, I'm a member of the GERS, and their Journal #36 has a full article by Lyn Brooks covering the history of the class, covering about ten pages and also having several pictures of locomotives in GER days. However it does describe the later LNER and BR changes, and it actually says:

"Washout plugs began to appear on Y14 fireboxes in the 1930s. At first there were four plugs on either side, but this was later changed to two."

So that answers the mystery, but as usual with such a large and long lived class a photograph is really the only answer. And the GERJ article still says nothing about how the GER washed out their boilers!

Making this model has shown that there are a number of small errors/improvements that can be made on the kit, and I'll be incorporating these when I build my second one (this one will be a passenger engine, and the next one a goods locomotive in black). However when I've finished this model, I'll post these for the general information of anyone contemplating building one.

Cheers
Flymo

[Paul Willis]

Also, I'm a member of the GERS, and their Journal #36 has a full article by Lyn Brooks covering the history of the class, covering about ten pages and also having several pictures of locomotives in GER days.

Oh, one thing that I meant to mention and forgot - if you are a GERS member, you can get a DVD of every single Journal from 1 to 140, for the princely sum of twenty quid.

It's all fully searchable, and of course you can zoom the images up as much as you like to examine fine details. Now it's loaded onto my laptop, the full collection is a constant source of inspiration and education.

Highly recommended to anyone with a passing interest in the GER, or the subsequent LNER and BR days.

Flymo

[Wizard of the Moor]

Oh, one thing that I meant to mention and forgot - if you are a GERS member, you can get a DVD of every single Journal from 1 to 140, for the princely sum of twenty quid.

It's all fully searchable, and of course you can zoom the images up as much as you like to examine fine details. Now it's loaded onto my laptop, the full collection is a constant source of inspiration and education.

Now there's a good idea for a forward-thinking specialist society...

The Great North of Scotland Railway Association provided a similar CD, albeit that one was free to members

[Paul Willis]

All has been quiet from me recently, as a house move at the end of August meant that modelling equipment had to be boxed up, and time found for more important things (like rebuilding drains, and fixing lights). There was also the run-up to Scaleforum, which meant Society matters took my attention as well.

However, with a very successful weekend at Leatherhead behind us (I'm sure that there are many that will tell the story better than I can) I have both more time and much inspiration as well. Inspired by Horsley Bank, I feel a minimum space "box" layout coming on

Finally, it was great to spend time talking to folk over the weekend that I only normally "know" over the web. Too many to name individually, thank you all for taking the time to say hello, and I'm sorry that I may have been interrupted to answer questions about catering and suchlike. If you have a namebadge on, at times you're a target

See you all next time!

[Paul Willis]

...if you have spray painted a length of flexible track off the baseboard, don't try and subsequently adjust the curve of it.

For although it is relatively easy to break the bond on a single painted chair, or even Pandrol clip in this case, a track panel worth's of them isn't going to move easily

Oh well, it's nice to be doing some modelling again. I am just wondering how long it will take the PVA that I laid last night to dry. It seems to have hardly dried at all by this morning. It's also very successfully turned the sides and head of the steel rail rusty. That was unforeseen. I think that my track laying technique is going to need some refinement in the future...

[Paul Willis]

Or, in this case, read Norman Solomon's series of track-building articles in Model Railway Journal. That would have been very helpful with my recent track-laying experience.

Before going away racing at the weekend, I decided to lay some of the track that I've been building for my demo board. Having seen Norman's demonstration at the Missenden modelling weekend earlier this year, I thought that I would try his technique of fixing the track using PVA and ballasting it at the same time. This would be laid on a bed of Carrs foam, which is just the right thickness and firmness to give a resilient but yielding foundation.

I also used the technique of laying granite ballast immediately on top of the wet glue, in the areas where I wanted to show finished track. So I did this, after spreading the glue reasonably well, up to and over the edges of the masking tape that I'd use to define the formation, and placing the track carefully on the wet PVA. Then I applied a few weights just to hold the track in position and left it for the weekend. When I came back to it, this is what it looked like:

Laid track 001.jpg

Laid track 007.jpg

Good points:

- the track had stuck well, and hadn't tried to lift or twist

- the glue was flexible, and the foam trackbed still worked as a firm foundation

- the ballast had generally taken well, sticking to the glue without going rock solid. It had also stayed reasonable clear of the sleepers, so I don't have a huge amount of clearing up to do.

Less good points:

- the steel rail has rusted! Having been very careful to keep it unblemished prior to laying it, there are now patches of fresh rust all over the sides and head of both plain track and pointwork. This is going to have to be cleaned off. I suspect that it is something nasty given off as the PVA dried, and as it is much more pronounced on the sections where the weights were placed, I believe that it was trapped from evaporating away.

- there is glue and ballast that has crept behind a couple of the switch blades. This is going to need some careful digging out and cleaning.

- the PVA stuck the masking tape too well to the edge of the track to separate easily. I'm having to carefully cut it off the underlay. In future, I think that I need to lift the masking tape when the PVA is still wet, and chance the glue and ballast creeping further.

So all in all, a mixed result. I'm confident that it doesn't need scrapping and rebuilding, but it does need a bit of TLC to get it back to a usable state. Live and learn!

[Philip Hall]

Paul,

Rust on steel rail after laying into PVA seems to happen to some people, but not to others. Eddie Bourne told me they'd never had any problems like this on Wanborough Camp and later on St. Merryn, and SLAG have been keen users of steel rail for as long as I can remember. Maybe the environment is a factor, but then St. Merryn lives in a Portakabin so you would think that if anything promoted a bit of moisture, it would be that. I think Don Rowland commented once that he wouldn't use steel rail again because of problems like this. His layout was in a conservatory - more extremes of temperature, I guess.

This interests me because when I finally get down to constructing the new layout, it will probably be up here in the loft room. But one day it might possibly end up in a purpose built shed in the garden. Brief pause here whilst I help my wife recover from hysterical laughter, she's been waiting to see a new railway since we got married fifteen years ago.

I accepted the arguments for steel rail long ago, and I also like the idea of ballasting as you lay the track; it's a lousy job at the best of times and anything which makes it quicker is a good idea in my book. I used to use Copydex on my old layout and apart from being stringy and liable to tear when it's gone off, it sticks like crazy when set and stays flexible. That will probably be the way I go, but I shall experiment a little as to whether I thin it down a bit with water. I looked at the Greenscenes ballast layer with interest at Scaleforum, simply because The Fasttrack I shall use for the main lines has full depth sleepers and the ballast might need topping up a bit.

Were the sleepers on your test piece full or half depth, and if full depth how did the ballast cover?

Philip

[Paul Willis]

Rust on steel rail after laying into PVA seems to happen to some people, but not to others. Eddie Bourne told me they'd never had any problems like this on Wanborough Camp and later on St. Merryn, and SLAG have been keen users of steel rail for as long as I can remember. Maybe the environment is a factor, but then St. Merryn lives in a Portakabin so you would think that if anything promoted a bit of moisture, it would be that. I think Don Rowland commented once that he wouldn't use steel rail again because of problems like this. His layout was in a conservatory - more extremes of temperature, I guess.

Hi Philip,

In all honesty, I don't think that environment or temperature had anything to do with it. Simply cack-handedness on my part. I really should have read Norman Solomon's article first, but modelling time is so scarce these days that I just cracked on regardless.

For the record, the tracklaying was done in my study, at usual South East temperatures for this time of year - it's October and I'm still generally wandering around in a t-shirt.

This interests me because when I finally get down to constructing the new layout, it will probably be up here in the loft room. But one day it might possibly end up in a purpose built shed in the garden. Brief pause here whilst I help my wife recover from hysterical laughter, she's been waiting to see a new railway since we got married fifteen years ago.

Well, I don't think that the environment will make a huge difference to steel rail *unless* there is high humidity. I believe that the problems that I've had came from splashes of flux during construction (despite much rinsing at the end of work sessions) and from the inability of the vapour from the PVA (which I think is a very dilute acetic acid) being unable to escape. Either in a loft or a shed, if well made, I would expect no problems.

I accepted the arguments for steel rail long ago, and I also like the idea of ballasting as you lay the track; it's a lousy job at the best of times and anything which makes it quicker is a good idea in my book. I used to use Copydex on my old layout and apart from being stringy and liable to tear when it's gone off, it sticks like crazy when set and stays flexible. That will probably be the way I go, but I shall experiment a little as to whether I thin it down a bit with water. I looked at the Greenscenes ballast layer with interest at Scaleforum, simply because The Fasttrack I shall use for the main lines has full depth sleepers and the ballast might need topping up a bit.

Well, like you, I love the look of steel rail, so maybe not for the next project, but when I come to build a larger layout, and all of the track comes from Exactoscale, then it will definitely be steel. I simply have to learn a few lessons first

I'm going to stick with PVA as well, having been warned off Copydex by Mark of Clan Portchullin.

Were the sleepers on your test piece full or half depth, and if full depth how did the ballast cover?

A mixture of both, as this was for my demo track and it has both ply-and-rivet, and P4TrackCo pointwork, and flat-bottom FastTrack. Generally, the ballasting has worked very well. I'll try and get some pictures when I have chance in daylight.

Having now dug out the article that I should have used in the first place, in MRJ 144, this is where I went wrong:

- I applied the PVA with a spatula, and left it quite thick - to the depth of the sleepers in places. NS uses a paintbrush and applies it very much more thinly.

- I used boards/tins to hold the track down, which didn't allow the PVA to dry quickly and the vapours to escape. NS uses a staple gun over the rail to fix the track in key places, then removes the staples afterwards.

- I used masking tape to delineate the edges of the ballast, which was then a sod to remove. NS just uses the edge of the brushed PVA, and that's it.

- I left the ballast on the wet glue to dry, and that has in parts formed lumps. NS uses less glue, and vacuums off the excess straightaway. Again, this probably helps prevent the condensation from the PVA.

All these are things that I didn't read up about first, and so didn't take enough care about. Live and learn, and I'll do it better next time.

Cheers
P.

[grovenor-2685]

In all honesty, I don't think that environment or temperature had anything to do with it. Simply cack-handedness on my part. I really should have read Norman Solomon's article first, but modelling time is so scarce these days that I just cracked on regardless.
For the record, the tracklaying was done in my study, at usual South East temperatures for this time of year - it's October and I'm still generally wandering around in a t-shirt.

Well, I don't think that the environment will make a huge difference to steel rail *unless* there is high humidity. I believe that the problems that I've had came from splashes of flux during construction (despite much rinsing at the end of work sessions) and from the inability of the vapour from the PVA (which I think is a very dilute acetic acid) being unable to escape. Either in a loft or a shed, if well made, I would expect no problems.

I agree, i have used steel rail for very many years and not had rust problems, I have always used solder paste, mostly of the corrosive variety to build the track but any soldering after laying, for wiring etc. just standard non-corrosive electronics solder as it can't really be washed at that stage.
You do say much rinsing, I always take the completed track to the sink, give it a good scrub with a toothbrush and vim, then rinse under the hot tap so it dries quickly. (the scrubbing finds any loose joints as well so they can be sorted before laying).

Well, like you, I love the look of steel rail, so maybe not for the next project, but when I come to build a larger layout, and all of the track comes from Exactoscale, then it will definitely be steel. I simply have to learn a few lessons first
I'm going to stick with PVA as well, having been warned off Copydex by Mark of Clan Portchullin.

For all my recent tracklaying i have used "child friendly" PVA from the likes of Early Learning Centres, being designed to wash out of the kiddies clothes etc. its easier to remove when you want to make changes, and cheaper as well.

- I applied the PVA with a spatula, and left it quite thick - to the depth of the sleepers in places. NS uses a paintbrush and applies it very much more thinly.

All in the P4 Manual of course, long before NS, but 100% agree, for large areas the PVA can be premixed, but for small areas I run a couple of beads of neat PVA along the trackbed then brush it out with a wet brush, keep a jar of water handy and wet the brush as needed.

- I used boards/tins to hold the track down, which didn't allow the PVA to dry quickly and the vapours to escape. NS uses a staple gun over the rail to fix the track in key places, then removes the staples afterwards.

Can't say this staple gun idea gives me good vibes, especially on softish underlay it would seem likely to cause problems with level, I would try it on something not very important first I have always used weights, since I replaced the lead piping in my last house they nave been flattened sections of lead pipe. See pics 26 and 27 here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/shed-relay.html It is noticeable that the glue dries quicker between weights than under them, and assuming I'm not asleep I move the weights around after an hour or two. Never noticd any rust patches under them though.

- I used masking tape to delineate the edges of the ballast, which was then a sod to remove. NS just uses the edge of the brushed PVA, and that's it.

Same here, no masking tape.

- I left the ballast on the wet glue to dry, and that has in parts formed lumps. NS uses less glue, and vacuums off the excess straightaway. Again, this probably helps prevent the condensation from the PVA.

I've always left it on to dry, I suspect your problem is more related to the excess glue, the glue layer will need to be a little thicker for the thick sleepers than for the thin ones I have used, will need a bit of experiment to arrive at the right thickness so the ballast ends up close to sleeper top level. Since the excess ballast is usualy a lot more than is actually used it needs to be recovered in re-useable state, make sure you put a new bag in the vac Where the track is being laid on a board off layout I just upend it over a newspaper, if its in situ i brush the ballast into heaps and spoon it off, this method always leaves a residue to be vacuumed away but it only usually applies to small areas anyway.

All these are things that I didn't read up about first, and so didn't take enough care about. Live and learn, and I'll do it better next time.
Cheers
P.

Yep, still learnng, regards, Keith

[craig_whilding]

You'll see some laid and ballasted track in either MRJ 202 or 203 as Slattocks trackwork has an article on it by Dick Petter. He uses wood glue but i've used normal pva on other bits of track on the layout and a nice thin layer is the key. If you put it on thick it goes up the sides of the sleepers when you lay the track on top and gives you curved sections of glue between the sleepers as well.

Masking tape does work better than hand painting the edge but remove it after the track is down but before you ballast, ie while the glue is still wet! Mind you if you haven't laid the cess before the main ballast you'll have to put that down and do a new ballast edge over it in any case.

Full depth sleepers don't have to be ballasted as you lay like 1/2 depth but it is quicker and you can add a small amount of ballast into any gaps later. Its much quicker than filling in the ballast later.

We bought all of our Exactoscale bits separately and used NS rail with it so can't help on PVA and steel but you may find much less issues anyway if you use the correct thin layer.

edit: Cross posted with Keith, for the glue I always used ELC stuff but Hobby Craft do a similar bottle and its normally cheaper with a 3 for 2 offer.

For holding the track in place we used panel pins either side of the rail and then weight on top. The track tended to float on the pva so the pins keep it int he right place.

[martin goodall]

I am still puzzled by the differing views one hears on the use of steel rail. I have never used anything other than N/S rail, but I am very interested in the possibility of using steel rail on a future layout.

There are strong claims in favour of steel rail - better rail-to-wheel contact (and thus traction), better current collection, less rail cleaning required, etc. etc. Yet one does come across people who have used steel rail and vow 'never again'. But it is difficult to pin them down as to precisely why they say this. Rust is occasionally cited as a problem, but other users of steel rail seem never to have had a problem with it. What else can 'go wrong' with steel rail which makes some of its users reluctant to use it again?

Can one of those modellers who have had problems with steel rail explain for the enlightenment of the rest of us what the down-side of using steel rail is precisely.

[zebedeesknees]

Can one of those modellers who have had problems with steel rail explain for the enlightenment of the rest of us what the down-side of using steel rail is precisely.

It's only my opinion, but... the only up-side to using steel is the colour.

Nickel Silver is less difficult to use in all respects. It doesn't corrode in the rapid way that steel does. It solders much more easily and it causes less wear your tools, such as saws and files. The idea that steel provides better conductivity and/or traction is an urban myth perpetrated by those who've had to justify their suffering with it. I've never heard of or seen any proper comparison, only theorising based on co-efficients of friction and materials resistivity. These effects are immeasurably miniscule compared with the difference made by fitting spring suspension or just a few more grams of lead.

For track-laying adhesive I recommend 'Everflex' external frame sealant. Acrylic based, permanently flexible, and takes paint well. Just a thin skin is all that's needed. Even sticks to polycarbonate.

Zeb.

[Paul Willis]

I agree, i have used steel rail for very many years and not had rust problems, I have always used solder paste, mostly of the corrosive variety to build the track but any soldering after laying, for wiring etc. just standard non-corrosive electronics solder as it can't really be washed at that stage.
You do say much rinsing, I always take the completed track to the sink, give it a good scrub with a toothbrush and vim, then rinse under the hot tap so it dries quickly. (the scrubbing finds any loose joints as well so they can be sorted before laying).

Hi Keith

Well, the washing stage was preceded by neutralising rinse applied with an old paintbrush, and then a rinse under the tap. So not as vigorous as your method, and probably not as effective. I'll be more brutal next time

For all my recent tracklaying i have used "child friendly" PVA from the likes of Early Learning Centres, being designed to wash out of the kiddies clothes etc. its easier to remove when you want to make changes, and cheaper as well.

Mine is proper builders PVA, from Wickes. Bought in a five litre quantity because I know that I'll use a lot of it in the garage, rather than any plans to build baseboards on the scale of Retford. In that quantity, it's cheap (which is why builders use it...)

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Waterproof-PVA-Adhesive/invt/243806

All in the P4 Manual of course, long before NS, but 100% agree, for large areas the PVA can be premixed, but for small areas I run a couple of beads of neat PVA along the trackbed then brush it out with a wet brush, keep a jar of water handy and wet the brush as needed.

As I confessed, I was in too much of a hurry to RTFM... I'm afraid that with the scarcity of modelling time recently, I cut one too many corner

Can't say this staple gun idea gives me good vibes, especially on softish underlay it would seem likely to cause problems with level, I would try it on something not very important first I have always used weights, since I replaced the lead piping in my last house they nave been flattened sections of lead pipe. See pics 26 and 27 here http://www.norgrove.me.uk/shed-relay.html It is noticeable that the glue dries quicker between weights than under them, and assuming I'm not asleep I move the weights around after an hour or two. Never noticd any rust patches under them though.

Fair enough. I left mine in place over the weekend, so that really wouldn't have helped moisture be released. I may try the staple gun idea, in part because I could do with a staple gun for numerous other purposes as well

I've always left it on to dry, I suspect your problem is more related to the excess glue, the glue layer will need to be a little thicker for the thick sleepers than for the thin ones I have used, will need a bit of experiment to arrive at the right thickness so the ballast ends up close to sleeper top level.

Agreed, it was almost certainly the excess glue that caused many of the issues. I'll definitely try it differently next time.

Thanks for all the thoughts,
Flymo