Beer and Buckjumpers

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:02 am

Will L wrote:Get it hot Paul, it brakes down above 150 C. Could be tricky if you assembled the chassis with 144 degrees solder but it is losing strength before it gets to 150. Google Loctite 601 for data sheets


Thanks Will - I suspected that would be the answer.

The only difficulty is that sort of heat will melt the plastic centres of the wheels, so they'll have to come off. There is not a lot of room to do that, and swing the coupling and connecting rods out of the way. And then reassembly means getting the quartering right again *without* being able to use my trusty GW Wheel Press. The Pug wheels are so small that it's almost impossible to adjust them using finger strength.

Oh well - lesson learned for next time :-)

BTW, the chassis was built with a mixture of 243 and 188 solder, for precisely the reason that I could "cascade" detail on to it. Hopefully I won't dissemble anything else at the same time!
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Philip Hall
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:17 pm

Paul

As a guide to retaining the quartering, scribe a line across the ends of the axles and the wheels (quite deeply) and fill with white paint on one side & yellow on the other. Make the lines not quite in the middle so you can only get them to line up one way. The different colours are in case you mix the wheels up, which you will. Then you can quite happily pull the wheels off and refit them, knowing that you can get them back on again later. Make sure you allow the paint to dry fully so that it doesn't rub off while you're doing all this. A drop of filler or thick paint when you're done will disguise the marks.

As for the gear wheel, I agree with Will about the heat. I suspect that the reason you had the gear slipping in the first place was that you used superglue to secure it. Had you used 601 and rotated the gear a bit on the axle it would have been nicely coated all round and would have been firmly set, as you've now discovered. I find superglue tends to be brittle when it goes off, and depending on brand, doesn't always find its way into joints, whereas 601 is quite thin and - I believe - expands around the axle thus locking it in place. I only find this works when the gear is a nice sliding fit on the axle, and won't work so well on a Hornby axle and gear where the gear is very sloppy. Then you're down to pinning the gear on, which is something else you could do if you get one that slips sometime.

Good luck

Philip

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:29 pm

Paul,

I am pretty certain that when you heat a cyano, you get some cyanide gas given off.

Now I have done this a couple of times (often unintentionally) and do not think I have suffered any adverse affects, but you are capable of making your own judgement on this! At the very least, do it outside and make sure you are standing back a bit.

People more clever than me can give the full low down, but I think this is right.
Mark Tatlow

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:58 pm

Strangely I too have just had a high-level final gear come loose on the driving axle, and that was originally fixed on with Loctite! Having been once bit, I wasn't going to be happy with just a glue joint, so I decided to pin it as well. I temporally fixed it back, in the right place, with Loctite, then I drilled it 0.5mm strait down between two teeth. As I didn't want to take the wheels off, I had no choice as there was insufficient access to do it down the sides. After I'd got the drill through the gear and into the axle it eventually broke off, and the remnant makes the pin. As I like to be able to disassemble things if necessary I'm not really happy with this as a solution. If/when the next problem occurs I'll probably have to saw out the axle and get a new gear wheel!

Will

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:13 am

Philip Hall wrote:As a guide to retaining the quartering, scribe a line across the ends of the axles and the wheels (quite deeply) and fill with white paint on one side & yellow on the other. Make the lines not quite in the middle so you can only get them to line up one way. The different colours are in case you mix the wheels up, which you will. Then you can quite happily pull the wheels off and refit them, knowing that you can get them back on again later. Make sure you allow the paint to dry fully so that it doesn't rub off while you're doing all this. A drop of filler or thick paint when you're done will disguise the marks.


Thanks for the tip. I already make copious use of different colours and numbers of dots to code the positions of the various components, as you can see in this picture of my J15 under construction:

J15 001 (Large).jpg
J15 001 (Large).jpg (112.26 KiB) Viewed 7948 times


Fortunately, the Pug wheels are disc ones, with two holes drilled in each, on on each side of the axle. So these make a useful reference point. The wheels *have* to stay on the rods though, as the crankpins and nuts have been filed down and firmly fixed. Ultimately however, this particular method wouldn't work as you'll see in a few minutes...

Philip Hall wrote:As for the gear wheel, I agree with Will about the heat. I suspect that the reason you had the gear slipping in the first place was that you used superglue to secure it. Had you used 601 and rotated the gear a bit on the axle it would have been nicely coated all round and would have been firmly set, as you've now discovered. I find superglue tends to be brittle when it goes off, and depending on brand, doesn't always find its way into joints, whereas 601 is quite thin and - I believe - expands around the axle thus locking it in place.


Well, this was nice thin and runny genuine Loctite stuff, but you're right - it probably was far too brittle, and gave out after five minutes running. The gear wheel has gone back on with 601 this time!

Flymo
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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:16 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:Paul,

I am pretty certain that when you heat a cyano, you get some cyanide gas given off.

Now I have done this a couple of times (often unintentionally) and do not think I have suffered any adverse affects, but you are capable of making your own judgement on this! At the very least, do it outside and make sure you are standing back a bit.


I believe that it is a close relative of tear gas and, yes, can be very nasty!

As it happened, I couldn't get enough heat into the axle whilst still in the chassis to loosen off the 601, so there was only a whiff or two as I touched the soldering iron on a trace or two of the superglue.

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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:57 am

I've always been very nervous about using Loctite and similar on worms and gears. I assume that the High Level gearboxes aren't fitted with grub screws?
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:12 am

Ealing wrote:I've always been very nervous about using Loctite and similar on worms and gears. I assume that the High Level gearboxes aren't fitted with grub screws?


No, they aren't. They're lovely pieces of kit, and very well thought out - I'd have no qualms about using plenty more in future, but the final drive gear is a permanent fit, as supplied.

YEngineeringSkillsMV>>>

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Ealing wrote:I've always been very nervous about using Loctite and similar on worms and gears. I assume that the High Level gearboxes aren't fitted with grub screws?


Actually some of the Highlevels final drive gears do have a grub screw (or did, things can change), but most seem not to. The trouble with grub screws is that if the gear isn't a god tight fit on the shaft, they can push the gear off centre leading to a stiff spot once per revolution. In the end I prefer without. The fact that I had trouble with one slipping if probably that I didn't fix it properly in the first place.

Will

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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:01 pm

Yes I know what you mean Will, but a permanently fixed axle gives me the shivers. I've never had too much trouble and if a small flat is filed on the axle it should (!!??) help.
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Stephen F
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Stephen F » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:50 pm

What do people think about the option of dropping the axles and gearbox including hornblocks, or bearings and rods, with a keeper plate, as per Alan Goodwillie's thread? Mount the brakes and springs on the plate, and retain it with bolts to the frame spacers.
I built my Black 5 with a High Level box, also had trouble getting the gear to stay put, and now can't get it out. You've got to be able to take things apart. Being a beginner I didn't realise the problem, but I won't do it again that way.

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Mike Garwood » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:48 pm

Stephen
There was a wonderful thread from Morgan Gilbert on a Caprotti on RM Web (sorry Vicar), some of Morgan's innovative ideas appealed to me. This also included the very things you were asking about.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... wentry=869

Well worth the read of the whole thread.

cheers

Mike

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:01 am

Stephen F wrote:What do people think about the option of dropping the axles and gearbox including horn blocks, or bearings and rods, with a keeper plate, as per Alan Goodwillie's thread? Mount the brakes and springs on the plate, and retain it with bolts to the frame spacers.


I would always make a chassis so that wheels sets drop out if at all possible. Lots of reasons for this, the key ones being:-
1. Because it is so much easier to paint the wheels/chassis when they are not together
2. Because I do try to assemble and quarter the drivers once only, each additional time you do it increases the risk of them moving on the axle in service.
3. Because I invariably find I need to do more work on the chassis and I don't want to solder close to the wheels. I like steel tyred wheels, and flux splashes make them go rusty. So the wheels will need to come out again.
4. Because as a general rule I like being able to take things apart again, so repairs and tweaks are easier to achieve.

If you use CSB suspension, and it is IMHO the only way to go, one of the advantages is that the Continuous Springy Beam retains the wheels in the chassis and a keeper plate isn't necessary, though something like a keeper plate may still be necessary if under hung pick-ups can't be avoided. I can see I may have to explain that one further, but not tonight.

The high level gear boxes will normally pass through P4 width frames without too much trouble, so will drop out with the axle. (Take care this may depend on your choice of horn block). You will probably have to remove the motor from the gear box first.

Finally, once out of the frames, and assuming you've accept the need to remove the wheels, a Loctited drive gear can normally be driven of the axle with a few taps with a hammer, so disassembly is possible. I chose to pin in the example above because I didn't want to remove the wheels.

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Stephen F
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Stephen F » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:11 pm

Mike, that is a great thread, beautiful work and photos, and I'll take a good long look at it when I have time. Was hoping for a page 2, but he seems to have stopped for now. Btw, it must be ok to mention RMWeb, there's a link to it on the banner :shock:
Will, thanks for your advice, coincidentally Morgan's thread includes excellent shots of CSB installation, just as I was about to ask for a refresher on that. Do you use .45 guitar wire or something like that?
Re pickups they are on front and rear driver tops, but do please elaborate when you have a moment. Another reason I liked Allan Goodwillie's system was the detachable brakes, which looked a bit of pain to set up, but then they always are anyway :!:
It's not really that I won't be able to get the axle and gearbox out, more that it should be a simple process, without any hammering and sawing.

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Beer and Buckjumpers - Scrap

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:06 am

Well, I couldn't get enough heat from a soldering iron into the gear wheel from my soldering iron. It's only a 50W iron, and even cranked up to full, the heatsink of the brass gear was too great to stop it getting any hotter than uncomfortably warm.

So it was out with the Dremel, and the careful use of the slitting disc... I had to make a series of cuts to first of all get the gearbox out, then to extract the gear wheel itself. There wasn't enough room to cut it immediately in the middle and slide the axles out.

This picture shows the four parts that the axle wound up in!

scrap 002 (Large).jpg


From here, it was easy to use a gear puller to get the gear off the axle. It was then cleaned up, and re-mounted on an axle stolen from my other Pug kit. I must get some spares from Alan Gibson when I next see him at a show...

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:09 am

Mike Garwood wrote:Stephen
There was a wonderful thread from Morgan Gilbert on a Caprotti on RM Web (sorry Vicar), some of Morgan's innovative ideas appealed to me. This also included the very things you were asking about.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... wentry=869

Well worth the read of the whole thread.


Very nice work indeed... That is very enlightening. Once I get a little more confident about getting a successfully running chassis first time off the blocks, I'll definitely be looking to include refinements such as detachable cosmetic springs and brakegear.

I've subscribed that thread for future reference and updates ;-)

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Beer and Buckjumpers - inspiration

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:58 pm

I had last week as holiday from work, and other than getting a lot more modelling done, we had the opportunity to just chill out and do things. On Friday Anne and I went into London to spend the day going around galleries.

To Tate Britain first, and then on to the National Gallery. I was, as usual, completely entranced with the Turners, and not just because "Rain, Steam and Speed" includes a Green With Rivets train.

It's because Turner is such an inspiration on how an impression of substance, colour and movement can be created with just a few strokes of a brush. When it comes to scenic works on a model railway, I definitely want to try and be inspired to create the depth and emotion in the scenery that he does on canvas. Hmmm.... I wonder if I should try art classes before painting my backscene.

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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:15 am

Flymo's note rang lots of bells with me.

My wife and I have spent many happy hours wandering around art galleries, and Turner is certainly one of my favourite painters. Having missed the Turner exhibition at Tate Britain, I managed to catch up with it at the Grand Palais in Paris earlier this year. But what blew me away was the fantastic collection of Impressionists at the Musée d’Orsay [which was formerly the Gare d’Orsay, by the way].

What has this got to do with railway modelling? A great deal, so far as I am concerned. I look on railway modelling as painting a picture in three dimensions, and I definitely derive inspiration from Constable, Turner, Monet and their various contemporaries and compatriots on both sides of the Channel. Turner painted just one railway scene (‘Rain, Steam and Speed on the Great Western’) whereas Monet painted quite a few, including several at the Gare St Lazare in Paris.

Painting and drawing was one of my hobbies before I even took up railway modelling, and I still devote a certain amount of my limited spare time to it. It has one huge advantage over railway modelling – no moving parts! And of course, painting a backscene is an ideal combination of the two hobbies.

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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:57 am

martin goodall wrote: And of course, painting a backscene is an ideal combination of the two hobbies.


Consider yourself booked then Martin!

Slightly different theme, but prompted by Paul's reference to art gallerys and also to 3D printing (which ought to be called "rapid prototyping" i am told). If anybody is going to the Royal Academy Summer Exhibition, there are several models in the architectural section (always the best bit I reckon - you do get some wacky stuff at the Summer Exhibition!).

These included three huge towers by Foster & Partners - about 8 feet high! They do have a very strong surface texture though - possibly OK for some things like stonework but not yet OK for vehicles was what I though.
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Mark Tatlow wrote:
martin goodall wrote: And of course, painting a backscene is an ideal combination of the two hobbies.


Consider yourself booked then Martin!

Slightly different theme, but prompted by Paul's reference to art gallerys and also to 3D printing (which ought to be called "rapid prototyping" i am told). If anybody is going to the Royal Academy Summer Exhibition, there are several models in the architectural section (always the best bit I reckon - you do get some wacky stuff at the Summer Exhibition!).


In the opinion of me and Anne, the architectural room was probably the best part of the exhibition. There was also a lot of use in the models of etched metal - mainly copper, but also some others.

All in all, very neat, and lovely models to see the construction and visualisation of ideas.

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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:09 pm

" But what blew me away was the fantastic collection of Impressionists at the Musée d’Orsay [which was formerly the Gare d’Orsay, by the way]."

It's a very impressive gallery - but I did spend much of my visit there imagining what the place looked liked when busy with steam engines!
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:24 pm

Ealing wrote:" But what blew me away was the fantastic collection of Impressionists at the Musée d’Orsay [which was formerly the Gare d’Orsay, by the way]."

It's a very impressive gallery - but I did spend much of my visit there imagining what the place looked liked when busy with steam engines!


In a guide book we bought, there was a picture of the interior when it was indeed busy with steam engines, but in fact (as city stations go) it was quite modest in size, and mainly used for suburban services. The nearest equivalent in London, I suppose, would be Marylebone, Broad Street or Fenchurch Street, but even they are/were quite a bit larger than the Gare d'Orsay. It is still a very impressive building, though.

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Stephen F
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Stephen F » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:24 am

I think there's a lot of crossover between art and modelling. I've made a lot of sculpture, mainly in stone which you can see here http://www.stephenfox.org.uk, but have always been into machines. I used to drive and rebuild bikes, (750 Ducati, Flymo, not desmo though, and 650 SS Norton was my favourite), and was a mechanic for some years. Now I'm getting back to that interest, in miniature.
A lot of 'arty' people like to elevate art onto a rarefied plane, but artists are often into making a wide variety of stuff. And making a layout is pure art, whether or not you show it at meets. In fact it's purer than a lot of high 'Art', because it doesn't have all the pretentious woffle and commercialisation loaded on to it...

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Andy W
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Andy W » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:21 pm

I think you've put your finger on what makes this such an interesting hobby. It's a unique blend of the creative (I won't use the art word) and the technical.

All we need now is a few art galleries being turned into stations with real steam workings, and the balance will be complete.
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Beer and Buckjumpers - East Suffolk Light

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:27 am

Over the weekend we visited Snape Maltings, in search of antiques shops. Whilst driving around the area, and seeing the maltings itself, it reminded me so much of Iain Rice's East Suffolk Light Railway.

Many people talk about the influence of Pendon or Heckmondwike on their modelling, but for me the key influence was the ESLR. That combination of artistic observation, eclectic rolling stock, and a history that bound it all together was superb in setting a time and a place. It wasn't just a model railway, but a model *of* a railway, even if that was an entire fiction :-)

It would be great to know "where is it now?" and whether it was ever going to appear on the exhibition circuit again, but it simply seems to have sunk without trace. Ah well, I think that I'll be digging out my old magazines for a dose of nostalgia tonight...

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