Beer and Buckjumpers

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Dave K
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers - Making progress - 1 of 5...

Postby Dave K » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:38 am

Flymo748 wrote:When that was done, it was time for some weathering to reflect the reality of late Victorian/Edwardian railways. This was done with a mixture of Citadel miniatures washes, which really do work as well as others describe.


Flymo,
I've only used enamels for weathering today but I've found that my local "games" shop is a stockist of Citadel paints and fancy giving them a try. Can you tell me what colours you have used?

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers - Making progress - 1 of 5...

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:51 pm

dave k wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:When that was done, it was time for some weathering to reflect the reality of late Victorian/Edwardian railways. This was done with a mixture of Citadel miniatures washes, which really do work as well as others describe.


Flymo,
I've only used enamels for weathering today but I've found that my local "games" shop is a stockist of Citadel paints and fancy giving them a try. Can you tell me what colours you have used?

Hi Dave,

I have five of the washes. They are:

Badab Black - black and very useful for adding atmospheric grime
Baal Red - dark crimson, which I'm still experimenting with. Not convinced with this.
Devlan Mud - dark brown, of an "old oak" tone
Ogryn Flesh - a medium chestnut brown
Gryphonne Sepia - a mid/light brown, like tan shoes

I would like to find one that was a wash of rust red/brown, that I could use on wagon ironwork, so I'll have a poke around and see what other shades there are.

HTH
Flymo
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:56 pm

NB. Looking at Games Workshop, http://www.games-workshop.com/ "Washes" have now been replaced by "Shades" and the names are different. Washes on offer must now be old stock.
Keith

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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - Citadel paints

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:08 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:NB. Looking at Games Workshop, http://www.games-workshop.com/ "Washes" have now been replaced by "Shades" and the names are different. Washes on offer must now be old stock.
Keith

Thanks Keith. I bought these around a year ago, so i wasn't aware that the range had changed.

Mooching around that site, along with some very helpful tips on figire painting, I found a conversion chart:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... sion_Chart

So that tells me, for example Badab Black is now "Nuin Oil".

Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - enthused by Missenden

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:10 pm

Now back at home and work after a wonderful weekend away modelling in the beautiful surroundings of Missenden Abbey. And the food wasn't half bad this year as well...

I didn't feel that I did as much modelling over the course of this Autumn weekend as I did in my last couple of visits on the Spring weekends. This was mostly due to a large amount of socialising with the other course participants! However the enthusiasm for modelling remains. I have had a good sort out (tidy up!) of my workbench on my return, and tonight I settled down for some heavy duty metal bashing.

I had taken a number of projects along to Missenden, but mostly worked on my Coffeepot. I had stopped working on it at home, in the evenings, as I knew that the next task to be done was to make up the two sets of brake rigging, and I didn't the three or four hours of time to sit down solidly and knock this off in one session. However Missenden is perfect for this sort of task and I soon had it cracked out. That was followed by miscellaneous fittings, and the slide-bars and cylinders.

This was the point at which work at Missenden ground to a halt, as I knew that I would need my little vice and an assortment of bars to roll the forms of the cylinder covers. These are both small and a tricky reverse curve. However earlier this evening I cracked on, and this is the result:

Missenden Oct 12 004.jpg


Missenden Oct 12 005.jpg


There has already been some tidying up of the soldering (I was in a splodge-it-on strategy, to get them firmly in the correct places without moving) , and tomorrow night will bring the cylinder end covers into place...

Flymo
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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - Stumped by a Coffeepot!

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:39 pm

For the first time since starting the build of the Coffeepot, I've hit a genuine, can't-see-how-this-works, problem that re-reading the instructions won't solve...

The crossheads are two very nice lost-wax brass castings. After cleaning them up, and straightening the piston rods, they are united with the connecting rods by passing a pin in the back of the crosshead through a hole in the end of the connecting rod, and then soldering a backing plate, well, on the back.

However, this is a picture showing the pin and the hole:

Crosshead 004.jpg


You will see that the hole in the connecting rod is far too small for the pin. Indeed the pin is almost as wide as the rod-end itself... By way of scale, the total length of the crosshead is 14mm, so I don't have a great deal of metal and room to play about with.

My initial thought is to grind out (as I can't get a file on it) the pin at the back of the crosshead. Then I will drill a (say) 0.4mm hole through it, and use a brass lacemaker's pin to make a new pivot point.

Before I get out the heavy engineering tackle, is there anyone here that has either:

(a) built one of these Coffeepots or a similar Neilson and got this arrangement to work as designed, or
(b) can tell me that I've missed something blindingly obvious, or
(c) can suggest an alternative solution?

This isn't a deal-breaker by any means. The parts are all still beautifully formed, and this is the first difficulty I think that I have had and it's nearly at the end of my second tiny High Level locomotive. Knowing how good Chris Gibbon's instructions are, I do still wonder if I've missed something somewhere. Anyway, as he's now a Society member, perhaps he can chip in and tell me where I've gone wrong...

Oh, and when I have it all sorted out, I've already made the clothes peg clamp to hold it all together to be soldered...

Crosshead 005.jpg


Cheers
Flymo
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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:19 pm

Paul

It just worked for me. I have this feeling that despite what you said, you haven't followed the instructions... yet. The bit about filing down the back of the cross head in the filing guide provided. Could be that the pin will be a lot thinner when you've filed the cross head down to the correct thickness.

Will

David Knight
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby David Knight » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:03 am

What Will said. My Neilson had no problems either. Have you had a look at the crosshead from the end to see if the pin is a bit mushroomed? Filing down could be the cure, failing that I'm sure Chris could furnish another casting if you asked nicely ;)

Cheers,

David

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Flymo748
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Beer and Buckjumpers - stumped - the solution...

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:08 am

Will L wrote:It just worked for me. I have this feeling that despite what you said, you haven't followed the instructions... yet. The bit about filing down the back of the cross head in the filing guide provided. Could be that the pin will be a lot thinner when you've filed the cross head down to the correct thickness.


davknigh wrote:What Will said. My Neilson had no problems either. Have you had a look at the crosshead from the end to see if the pin is a bit mushroomed? Filing down could be the cure, failing that I'm sure Chris could furnish another casting if you asked nicely ;)


Will, David, thank you both very much indeed!

No matter what Will (or my manager at work) may think about my ability to follow instructions, I had indeed been following the instructions... Not that it is a chore, with instructions of the quality of Chris's.

I had put both of the crossheads into the filing jig to reduce the depth of them. This is yet another bit of clever High Level design, and you file the thickness of the casting down until it is that same as the slidebars...

crosshead jig 002.jpg


However it does indeed appear that I have not quite filed down far enough. When I looked end-on to the casting, as suggested, this is what I saw:

Mushroom 001.jpg


That is literally 0.1mm of metal remaining as a "cap" that made the pin look much thicker than it actually is.

So the instructions are correct, I can carry on, and the Scalefour Society Forum once again proves its value! Thank you gentlemen...

Cheers
Flymo
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:52 am

Any chance of the loco chassis & body getting to East Ham on Saturday ?
There are a few things which would be useful to look at before I start on plans to modify one.

- Nigel

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:43 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:Any chance of the loco chassis & body getting to East Ham on Saturday ?
There are a few things which would be useful to look at before I start on plans to modify one.

Hi Nigel,

I'm afraid not :-(

I have a prior engagement in the Scottish Borders on Saturday, so it's not even as though I can pop in.

Is there anything that I can help with by taking some pictures for you? Alternatively, when the current bout of work on the chassis is finished and it's ready for the paintshop, I could pop it in the post to you, so that you can have a look in the flesh.

Cheers
Flymo
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:27 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
nigelcliffe wrote:Any chance of the loco chassis & body getting to East Ham on Saturday ?
There are a few things which would be useful to look at before I start on plans to modify one.

Hi Nigel,

I'm afraid not :-(

I have a prior engagement ....


Not to worry. I was hoping to look at the rear axle clearances on the assembled chassis. I was thinking of assembling with hornblocks at both ends, but set the rear so they are fixed height and use the original design front axle compensation. I'd gain the benefit of removable wheelsets. But, not totally sure of all the clearances to know if it would quite work - the gearbox needs to drop through together with the rear axle.

And, I've got a new book to flog to you :-)



- Nigel

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:25 pm

nigelcliffe wrote: I was thinking of assembling with hornblocks at both ends, but set the rear so they are fixed height and use the original design front axle compensation. I'd gain the benefit of removable wheelsets. But, not totally sure of all the clearances to know if it would quite work - the gearbox needs to drop through together with the rear axle.


I though I might try that, I was thinking about putting CSB in. But given the size of the original high-level horn blocks it was a none starter, as is apparent from this photo taken with the final gear missing from the gearbox.
Y5 pickups.jpg
Y5 pickups.jpg (192.03 KiB) Viewed 7122 times

Have to say I don't hold out much hope with the new thinners axle block versions either as I realised I was in trouble when the gearbox wouldn't fit between horn guides. I had to take the horn guides out again and reinstate the original fixed axle. I think a redesign of the gearbox would be needed before horn blocks can be fitted.

Will

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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:39 pm

Will L wrote:
nigelcliffe wrote: I was thinking of assembling with hornblocks at both ends, but set the rear so they are fixed height and use the original design front axle compensation. I'd gain the benefit of removable wheelsets. But, not totally sure of all the clearances to know if it would quite work - the gearbox needs to drop through together with the rear axle.


I though I might try that, I was thinking about putting CSB in. But given the size of the original high-level horn blocks it was a none starter, as is apparent from this photo taken with the final gear missing from the gearbox.

Have to say I don't hold out much hope with the new thinners axle block versions either as I realised I was in trouble when the gearbox wouldn't fit between horn guides. I had to take the horn guides out again and reinstate the original fixed axle. I think a redesign of the gearbox would be needed before horn blocks can be fitted.

Will


Will thanks for that. I wasn't initially worried about width; The gearbox will fit "00" frames, so I had assumed there would be several millimetres to play with at P4. The standard hornblocks may be a little thick at the rear, but could be thinned down quite a lot as there is a fair bit of metal protruding inboard of the horn guides. However, your comment suggests some very careful measuring is required, or perhaps a custom hornblock and horn guide. I did make my own front axle guides and hornblocks for a Coronation 0-4-0; it was built before Chris at HighLevel produced his own hornblocks.


- Nigel

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Will L
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:12 pm

nigelcliffe wrote: or perhaps a custom hornblock and horn guide.


Now I think about it, Exactoscale horn blocks, which go through the frame rather than fixing behind it, may do the job you want.

Will

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:54 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:Not to worry. I was hoping to look at the rear axle clearances on the assembled chassis. I was thinking of assembling with hornblocks at both ends, but set the rear so they are fixed height and use the original design front axle compensation. I'd gain the benefit of removable wheelsets. But, not totally sure of all the clearances to know if it would quite work - the gearbox needs to drop through together with the rear axle.

Without wishing to sound rude - have you actually built one of these?

You also have to consider that the motor and gearbox combination sit above the (detachable) lower boiler half, which in turn is pegged to the top of the chassis. So dropping the motor out strikes me as a non-trivial job.

Would you like a set of the Coffeepot instructions emailed to you? You can check the diagrams to see what I mean. Chris was very kind in letting me have a soft copy, to get me out of a crisis situation at Missenden. If he hadn't been so helpful I'd have been forced to spend the weekend making something GWR!

nigelcliffe wrote:And, I've got a new book to flog to you :-)

URL?

Cheers
Flymo
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:41 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
nigelcliffe wrote:Not to worry. I was hoping to look at the rear axle clearances on the assembled chassis. I was thinking of assembling with hornblocks at both ends, but set the rear so they are fixed height and use the original design front axle compensation. I'd gain the benefit of removable wheelsets. But, not totally sure of all the clearances to know if it would quite work - the gearbox needs to drop through together with the rear axle.

Without wishing to sound rude - have you actually built one of these?

You also have to consider that the motor and gearbox combination sit above the (detachable) lower boiler half, which in turn is pegged to the top of the chassis. So dropping the motor out strikes me as a non-trivial job.


Not built the Coffeepot, but I've built three other High Level 0-4-0's, all to P4, with DCC controlled AJ's amoungst other tricks. The Coronation is probably the closest in design/construction to the Coffeepot, with similar gearbox, lower boiler section clipped into chassis, etc..
They're huge with bags of space when compared with my 2mm scale 0-4-0's :)

I've got a coffeepot kit, instructions, hornblocks, motor, alternative slightly smaller motor (I have some other tricks in mind). Even have the very last set of Sharman P4 wheels for it !



Will's comment about Exactoscale hornblocks has made me remember how I made the set for the Coronation, and that approach might work again here. I still need to answer the gearbox dropping question, but I may have to assemble the chassis before deciding if this will actually work.



{quote]
nigelcliffe wrote:And, I've got a new book to flog to you :-)

URL?
[/quote]

Sorry, no URL yet. Its for Track.


- Nigel

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:30 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:Not built the Coffeepot, but I've built three other High Level 0-4-0's, all to P4, with DCC controlled AJ's amoungst other tricks. The Coronation is probably the closest in design/construction to the Coffeepot, with similar gearbox, lower boiler section clipped into chassis, etc..
They're huge with bags of space when compared with my 2mm scale 0-4-0's :)

I've got a coffeepot kit, instructions, hornblocks, motor, alternative slightly smaller motor (I have some other tricks in mind). Even have the very last set of Sharman P4 wheels for it !

Excellent! I hope that you'll be writing it up on the Forum then ;-)

There's only two things that stand out from memory in Chris's instructions:

- the GERS notes on the Y5 (Class 209) say that there is only one injector fitted under the cab on the LHS, whereas the instructions show two (and that is what I have fitted).

- there are two Diagram 19s in the instructions. It is pretty easy to work out which is which though!

Have fun...
Flymo
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Beer and Buckjumpers - chips with that?

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:11 pm

Not an Arts graduate job at the Sign Of The Golden Arches... Instead, my first attempt at fitting a DCC chip to a locomotive.

This is where I've reached before breaking for lunch:

Chips 005.jpg


This is following exactly the excellent article by Chris McCarthy in Scalefour News 174.

The most fiddly bit so far is fitting the heatshrick tube to the bare wires. Despite using the smallest size (1.5mm) that Maplin stocks, there is still an awful lot of tube to a very small piece of wire.

However it all seems to fit, and after lunch and a trip to the cinema with a twelve year old to watch Skyfall, I'll be carrying on with it.

Flymo
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:14 pm

Suggestions for fitting chips in small locos...

Wire - the decoder wire which CT Elektronik use on their decoders is the finest flexible wire that's easily available. The ESU stuff is a fairly close second. Various retailers offer this loose, some at reasonable prices.

Heatshrink - the thinnest heatshrink I've found is available at Rapid Electronics, but its a big reel of the stuff. You might find someone splitting it if you ask around.


If you want plugs and sockets, then I'd be tempted to look at the PluX-12 socket, and chips that use that socket, or even the smaller Next-18 socket - a few chips starting to appear with that socket. Both are a bit unusual in the UK, but could be more compact that the arrangement of wires and sockets you've used.
However, for such a simple set of wiring, I'd directly wire the chip to pickups and brushes, and forget the plug/socket arrangement.


- Nigel (regular chipper of 2mm scale 0-4-0 shunters).

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:50 am

nigelcliffe wrote:Suggestions for fitting chips in small locos...

Wire - the decoder wire which CT Elektronik use on their decoders is the finest flexible wire that's easily available. The ESU stuff is a fairly close second. Various retailers offer this loose, some at reasonable prices.


Hmmm... Yes, that does look like worth getting, even if a 10m reel will last several lifetimes of locomotive building. I can give excess away at the Area Group though, which is better than it sitting in my modelling drawer.

nigelcliffe wrote:Heatshrink - the thinnest heatshrink I've found is available at Rapid Electronics, but its a big reel of the stuff. You might find someone splitting it if you ask around.


Unfortunately out of stock for the next couple of months... And although there is some 1.2mm stuff in mixed kits, that would leave me with an awful lot that I didn't need. I'll persevere on with what I have.

nigelcliffe wrote:If you want plugs and sockets, then I'd be tempted to look at the PluX-12 socket, and chips that use that socket, or even the smaller Next-18 socket - a few chips starting to appear with that socket. Both are a bit unusual in the UK, but could be more compact that the arrangement of wires and sockets you've used.
However, for such a simple set of wiring, I'd directly wire the chip to pickups and brushes, and forget the plug/socket arrangement.

- Nigel (regular chipper of 2mm scale 0-4-0 shunters).


Yes. Quite. That's been a learning curve now that I've got it all together :-)

More on that subject when I've downloaded a couple of photos...

Thanks as always for the extremely useful help, and to repeat my comment that I've said to you before about 2mm 0-4-0s - you're completely mad!

Flymo
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 am

Crazy question here Flymo, why put in another plug into the build. I have yet to have a chip die :shock: And if it did I would hard wire the chip to the loco deleting the plug and the extra wires that go with it. Also I use enameled wire as the collection bus's for the pick ups and then a single solder lump at the end for the connection to the red and black. Then I know the other 2 can be short (orange and grey) to the motor.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Flymo748
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:57 pm

DougN wrote:Crazy question here Flymo, why put in another plug into the build. I have yet to have a chip die :shock: And if it did I would hard wire the chip to the loco deleting the plug and the extra wires that go with it. Also I use enameled wire as the collection bus's for the pick ups and then a single solder lump at the end for the connection to the red and black. Then I know the other 2 can be short (orange and grey) to the motor.


Hi Doug,

Well, the simple answer was that I didn't want to re-invent the wheel. As this is my first locomotive that I've chipped up for DCC, I didn't really know what I was doing... Following Chris's article on the benefits of making chips interchangeable seemed like a good idea to me.

Many aspects of it are - such as sealing the ends of bare wires with heatshrink tube, and also using nail varnish to protect them. However hit the fundamental problem that the whole ensemble is too large to fit inside a small GER loco - which is where the expertise of Nigel comes in as well as well.

So I've saved the "plugged" chip for another day, and a larger locomotive, and I've successfully had the tram running with a chip installed exactly as you say...

Cheers
Flymo
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DougN
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 am

I have tended to use the TCS M1, the Digitrax DZ 123. both of which are tiny. in the hard wired state the room is very minimal that they take up. I was even thinking of putting a M1 in my Black Hawthorn and then removing the majority of the construction wiring. From a personal perspective I wouldn't build a layout in old DC form. The DCC makes the operation so much easier and all you have to do is control the signals and points :D .
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

nigelcliffe
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Re: Beer and Buckjumpers

Postby nigelcliffe » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:01 am

DCC chip preferences can get like wheels or couplings. "3-link only", "argh, 3-link is terrible to use, hand of god everywhere, must use AJ's", "AJ's too fiddly, must use Dingham", "Dingham horrible, must use 3-link", etc..

I'd use European chips for the quality of motor control. Zimo as first choice, head and shoulders ahead of other makers. Price not that high when equipping a handful of hand-made locos. Decent manual, decent support from maker. Outputs protected against short circuit (so it doesn't go "pff" and need replacing if a mistake happens through a metal body).

I wouldn't use either the TCS or the Digitrax (have tried them, not up to the quality I expect). Neither are particularly small either; if you need small, its CT Elektronik who achieve running quality similar to Zimo, but a size which makes every other chip on the market look massive.

I have blown the odd chip, but only slightly mad bench experiements with far too many live components which could short. The TCS ones go "pff" instantly. Zimo don't fail, they just shut down and report the error through a CV value, and restart when power is removed and re-applied. But, I've never blown a chip in a conventional installation in a loco.


- Nigel


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