Boscarne Junction

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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steve howe
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby steve howe » Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:00 pm

davebradwell wrote: Some folk just seem determined to do it differently. I make the base a tiny bit wider than width over angles to prevent adjacent angles touching and causing a short.

DaveB
Yes that can be an issue with several cassettes on the deck at one time, I had a lot of those little square pads that glaziers use to keep glass apart and stuck those on the cassette sides, but any sort of plastic pad would do.
Steve

Chris Pendlenton
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Chris Pendlenton » Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:46 pm

I would just say that if people really feel the need to re-invent dimensions they should be careful to allow for thin card or cork pads on the base of the cassette to leave a clearance to the deck for 1) insertion of lifting forks and 2) to afford some adjustability in the event of any slight concave bowing of the cassette plank over time that may impede the mating of the cassette couplers. If you go to 9mm planks rather than 8mm you will have to review the downward displacement of the deck from the main baseboard to ensure this clearance is not lost. I recently bought some nice flat 45mm x 8mm planed pine strips from a hardware shop which are ideal, so they can still be had. Bowing can be mitigated by screwing aluminium angles to the wood rather than gluing.
I see Terry describes Barry Luck as deciding to use simple clips as cassette couplings which as far as I can see offers a lateral hold but loses the vertical, which I believe is just as necessary. Mike Clark sells robust etches for proper angled couplers though I add some tapered entries to ease engagement. I can see that some users may have to consider "clips" if they havn't got the 8-10mm end on clearance for a coupling manoeuvre.
Small end spacer pads to prevent accidental shorting contact as Dave mentions are an important refinement
Chris

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:14 am

Chris Pendlenton wrote:I see Terry describes Barry Luck as deciding to use simple clips as cassette couplings which as far as I can see offers a lateral hold but loses the vertical, which I believe is just as necessary.


As Chris says, vertical alignment is important but the degree of importance may depend on how the cassettes are used. The ones used on Pulborough and Plumptin Green are 5 feet long and contain the whole train plus the loco so the only join is where the cassette connected to the incoming road of the fiddle yard. Assuming that the timber of the cassette is flat, and the top surface of the FY is flat, vertical alignment should be maintained. Both of those factors may of course be assumotions too far and need to be checked. On the two layouts and on those that I have built the hight to the incoming road is a little greter than the thickness of the base of the cassette and a projecting piece of copper clad board to which the rails are soldered acts as a ledge to provide the vertical alignment.

Using two cassettes for one train is of course another matter. We did that in the early days of Staverton where some trains were quite long - 8 feet or so plus a diesel loco. Useing two cassettes worked but it was not ideal so I made two traverser type fiddle yards with a nine foor liong moving section which was a lot better.

Terry Bendall

Chris Pendlenton
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Chris Pendlenton » Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:55 pm

As Terry says (!) assumptions too far and no need at all to risk them. The recommended horizontal and vertical angle couplers are very simple.
Chris

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:44 am

Further thoughts on the track plan (v.8)

I wasn’t going to revisit the track plan until the man cave was empty so its internal dimensions could be confirmed. That was until I was able to squeeze in a day’s visit to Boscarne Junction after being in Torquay for a wedding (which is why I was unable to get to Scalefour Crewe). The visit was to take photos of the wider surrounding area. The site is now dramatically over grown compared to the photographs I have which were taken in the early 1960s. That said the embankments, paths, field boundaries seem to not have altered. Plenty of photographs were taken which I hope will enable me to replicate the topography around the junction.

While at Boscarne then subsequently looking at my track plan I began to feel I’d drawn it a little out of proportion. Siding 2 (along the back towards Bodmin North) looked too long. In reducing its length has made it feel more in proportion. In doing so I’ve been able to move the whole track plan to the right a little which has slightly increased the visible track left to the level crossing. In my attempt to balance the space available between scenic and fiddle yards I’ve had to reduce the overall length of the junction and sidings. There is approximately 13.5ft between the two quarter mile posts as opposed to 17.3ft for a scale quarter mile. Even so, the hope is this will still create a recognisable layout with the ability to operate as near as possible realistic train movements to a replica BR timetable.

Boscarne Junction v8.jpg

To give me the possibility to add a further board at the Wadebridge end I’ve also twisted the track plan slightly. In doing so means the track beyond the level crossing (towards Wadebridge) now runs parallel to the baseboards sides. This will allow the fiddle board that I’ll be using at home to be connected to the extra scenic baseboard if it ever is invited to a show.
Next thoughts:
1) How to build the baseboard supports and at what height should the layout be?
2) How to integrate lighting on the model as well as prevent other external lighting to affect the visual effect.
3) Need to think about the overall operation of the layout (my initial thought may need to produce v.9 of the track plan)
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:08 pm

ginger_giant wrote:Next thoughts:
1) How to build the baseboard supports and at what height should the layout be?
2) How to integrate lighting on the model as well as prevent other external lighting to affect the visual effect.
3) Need to think about the overall operation of the layout (my initial thought may need to produce v.9 of the track plan)


I think Ian, the answers to some of these questions may depend on some other factors. If the layout goes to exhibitions, which side will it be operated from and viewed from?

Baseboard height may depend on the type of couplings used. If you use some sort of automatic coupling then the baseboard could be quite high. If you need to access three link or screw couplings they may need to be lower - or else the operators stand on a platform.

Iain Rice's book on Cameo layouts considers most of the relevant points that need thinking about.

My take on baseboard support is a simple three legged trestle. Easy to make and set up and takes minimal space when taking a layout to exhibitions. See Scalefour News 175.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:56 pm

I'm erring on the side of trestles with a support beam cross/between them. Mulling over how to pack the corner boards along with possible carting to exhibitions.

Wagons may be in fixed rakes with automatic couplings at each end.

I've enjoyed operating Tredethy Wharf out front so think this layout will be the same, especially as this will be how it will be operated at home.

I'll check out Scalefour News 175 and dig out Iain Rice's book on Cameo Layouts.

Thanks Terry

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:39 pm

ginger_giant wrote:Mulling over how to pack the corner boards along with possible carting to exhibitions.


My preference for transporting layouts to exhibitions has always been a simple box of some sort and this dates back to about 1982 and the first layout constructed by the Mid Susex group - West Chiltington. much of which still exists in good condition and still in the original boxes that I made back then.

Some people bolt the boards face to face with suitable end panels but this is a good way of doubling the weight that has to be moved. Boxes mean that moving baseboards in the rain from the vehicle to the exhibition hall does not present a problem and means that baseboard can be stacked up on top of each other which makes packing the vehicle easier. Ian's corner boards means that constructing boxes would be an interesting challenge but not impossible if the suggestions that I outlined in Scalefour News 177 are followed.

Terry Bendall

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Will L
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Will L » Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:17 am

Terry Bendall wrote:..My preference for transporting layouts to exhibitions has always been a simple box of some sort and this dates back to about 1982 and the first layout constructed by the Mid Susex group - West Chiltington. much of which still exists in good condition and still in the original boxes that I made back then.

Some people bolt the boards face to face with suitable end panels but this is a good way of doubling the weight that has to be moved. Boxes mean that moving baseboards in the rain from the vehicle to the exhibition hall does not present a problem and means that baseboard can be stacked up on top of each other which makes packing the vehicle easier. Ian's corner boards means that constructing boxes would be an interesting challenge but not impossible if the suggestions that I outlined in Scalefour News 177 are followed.

The layout we exhibited over 15 years in the 70s and 80s was boxed as Terry described with each board bolted in its own box. It did make the packed up layout much much easier to deal with. Once in the box the boards were pretty much proof against all but the roughest handling and were stacked in the van without worry. The problem they pose is that the boxes don't go away when the layout isn't in them. So we had to find somewhere to put them at the exhibition. In the back of the van was one answer if there was nowhere in the hall they could go, but that has disadvantages to. The net result was with the layout in boxes and all the other bits an pieces in plastic crates, we could be out of the hall within about half an hour.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:24 pm

Will L wrote:The problem they pose is that the boxes don't go away when the layout isn't in them.


That is a problem and the boxes that we used for West Chiltington were like that but since they were only 14 inches wide and 48 inches long we could usually find a place for them. More recent boxes fold flat which makes thing easier and the method is described in News 177

Terry Bendall

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Worzels Works » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:34 pm

Finally got my numbers sorted so able to log in and comment, just to say I am very much looking forward to developments on this Ian. very much my cup of tea with regards to prototype!

As an addition to the comments reference layout transport, I personally am a convert to the larger multiple stacked boards in larger boxes, provided you have easy enough access to transporting them and preferably on wheels to aid moving to/from the van/transport. These have the advantage of providing plentiful 'bench space' in the middle of the layout and protection for stock boxes and suitable places to put the inevitable sea of teacups and biscuits out of range of the layout itself. But I am well aware that having a team to move the layout about was necessary, at an absolute skeleton of a crew we still needed 4 operators, make it a weekend exhibition and you very quickly reach the need for 6+ with rolling substitutions.

The boxes themselves had simple shelves with the layout boards fitting in as a friction fit over the front lip with the backscene providing outward protection. This means multiple boards of different shapes can be shelved in the same box but obviously ends up pretty bulky (the layout takes up 2 of these multiple board boxes, plus fiddle yards, plus stock, wiring etc... was designed with van hire in mind from the outset)
Yours aye,
James

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:37 pm

Worzels Works wrote: I personally am a convert to the larger multiple stacked boards in larger boxes, provided you have easy enough access to transporting them and preferably on wheels to aid moving to/from the van/transport.


But they would probably end up being quite heavy to lift into a van. Not all exhibitions have step free access for trollys and rolling over a car park and external paths may well shake loose scenic items. There is a ned to make sure that the number of people needed to load the van will always be available when needed.

Worzels Works wrote:was designed with van hire in mind from the outset)


If a hired van is needed, this is now quite expensive which would put up the cost for the exhibition organiser. A recent four day hire for a long wheelbase van was around £400 with fuel extra. That may be enough to for orgnaisers to go for layouits with lower costs.

Just something to bear in mind. :)

Terry Bendall

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:49 pm

I've been thinking along the lines of trailer hire. This is for two reasons, 1 being the possible difficulty in hiring a van when I reach my 70 year and 2 trailer hire should be more cost effective than van hire.

I'll post an image along with my thoughts about baseboard design and support structure as soon as possible. In the mean time I'll just say after considering all the input received along with recent experiences I'm now modifing the track plan in an effort to enhance the operation of the layout . The modified track plan will also fit a baseboard design which should help with storage and transportation. I was initially trying to design the baseboards to fit the trackplan which did create some strange shaped baseboards.

Ian

Albert Hall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Albert Hall » Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:44 am

Make sure your replacement driving licence at age 70 includes category BE which allows you to tow a trailer up to 750kg. Shouldn't be a problem but when I renewed mine I lost the category which entitled me to drive trucks up to 7.5t, not that it is very likely I would need to these days.
Roy

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:48 am

Thanks Roy will look out for that when I have to reapply. I've still got 3 years to go before I have to but just trying to plan ahead.

Jeremy Good
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Jeremy Good » Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:26 am

Ian,

For my layouts at home I use the IKEA Ivar system which gives a strong support that it is almost infintely adjustable. I have modified them with bearers across the top of the upright for the layout to sit on. This give me a strong, levellable base and masses of shelf space under the layout for storing all those kits and other purchases I want to hide away (from the domestic authorities).

I had thought about using the system for the layouts in exhibition mode and indeed the Wheal Elizabeth fiddleyard is now supported by a bolt-on upright formed from an Ivar support panels. One of the layouts at DEMU last weekend was using a modified version of the system as layout support although they were bolted together for extra stability.

In my view its worth a look for a home layout base as it is relatively cheap, reasonably robust and minimises additional joinery work whilst giving a decent base.

Hope this helps.

Jeremy

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Worzels Works » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:53 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:
But they would probably end up being quite heavy to lift into a van. Not all exhibitions have step free access for trollys and rolling over a car park and external paths may well shake loose scenic items. There is a ned to make sure that the number of people needed to load the van will always be available when needed.

If a hired van is needed, this is now quite expensive which would put up the cost for the exhibition organiser. A recent four day hire for a long wheelbase van was around £400 with fuel extra.

Terry Bendall


Terry you are absolutely right, I should remember not to take my youth for granted with regard to lifting and shifting!

With things such as using a van personally a consideration before building the baseboards (certainly going forward) is going to be building around the space I have to get the layout in, for example measuring the rear hatch on my car, and going from there with regards to how big of a box to use for transporting layout boards. Certainly lots to think about from this discussion!
Yours aye,
James

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:45 am

Hi Jeremy
Jeremy Good wrote:For my layouts at home I use the IKEA Ivar system which gives a strong support that it is almost infintely adjustable. I have modified them with bearers across the top of the upright for the layout to sit on. This give me a strong, levellable base and masses of shelf space under the layout for storing all those kits and other purchases I want to hide away (from the domestic authorities).


Funny you should mention Ikea's Ivar system. We have used it many times and adapted it for different shelving in our all our houses. I also used it to support Rospeath Lane at our previous house. I'll be making use of what we have left in the new 'Man Cave' but as you say, it's good for a permanent solution, but not for exhibiting. My thoughts are to support the layout with what I'd use at exhibitions and fill in the gaps between supports with any spare Ivar shelving.

Cheers
Ian

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:00 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:My preference for transporting layouts to exhibitions has always been a simple box of some sort and this dates back to about 1982 and the first layout constructed by the Mid Susex group - West Chiltington. much of which still exists in good condition and still in the original boxes that I made back then.

Some people bolt the boards face to face with suitable end panels but this is a good way of doubling the weight that has to be moved. Boxes mean that moving baseboards in the rain from the vehicle to the exhibition hall does not present a problem and means that baseboard can be stacked up on top of each other which makes packing the vehicle easier. Ian's corner boards means that constructing boxes would be an interesting challenge but not impossible if the suggestions that I outlined in Scalefour News 177 are followed.


For transporting the layout I'd definitely build some sort of box for the boards. Tredethy Wharf has boxes for each of the two scenic boards that have to be lowered onto each board from the top. In doing so has occasionally cause some minor damage to the scenery so I'll be looking for a difference solution for Boscarne Junction.

The Building Better Baseboards articles in issues 170 through to 177 of the Scalefour Magazine are an excellent source of information and ideas. I like the idea of the folding collapsible boxes to safe space at home let alone storage under the layout at exhibitions. Thanks Terry
Last edited by ginger_giant on Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:54 am

Just when I thought version 8 was the final track plan, I’ve now produced a version 9.

When starting to consider how the layout was going to be operated, my thoughts went to the enjoyment I gained when invited to operate other layouts. Especially those where a signalman controls a signal box and the train driver has to obey the signals. The use of bell codes, interlocking lever frames, and train driving to signals fascinated me. I questioned how I could include this feature in my model?

If I'm going to create off scene signal boxes in the Fiddle Yards, which will use bell codes to communicate with Boscarne Junction signal box, I have a problem with the Wenford branch. There was no signal box at Dunmere or on the Wenford branch. I believe the Guard of the Wenford train walked to Boscarne signal box to retrieve/return the key for the Dunmere Ground Frame. Then the train crew operated the two ground frames. I thought this is something I’d like to include in the model.

So, in an attempt to introduce this type of operation into the layout, I’ve decided to split the control into three areas.
1) Boscarne Signal box & Wadebridge Fiddle Yard (There would be the possibility to split Wadebridge Fiddle Yard away from Boscarne Box).
2) The Bodmin North, Bodmin General & Wenford Fiddle Yard.
3) Train Driver who’ll also control both Boscarne and Dunmere Ground Frames as the train crew would have done.
In doing the above, should give a reasonably authentic operating experience to this layout.

At this point I’d like to thank David Woodcock again as I’ve only been able to consider doing this due to the signal diagrams and locking tables he has very kindly drawn for me. Many thanks David.

I started mess around with the plan to see if I could squeeze in Dunmere Ground Frame and the junction turnout into the track plan. The only way I found was to move the whole of version 8 track plan back to the left. This dramatically reduced the scenic area before the level crossing which I’d created in version 8. I felt this compromise for home use was well worth taking as it will increase operational interest. There were always thoughts with version 8 that I’d add a further scenic board at the Wadebridge end for exhibitions. Version 9 will be no different. Still a bit left to do as there are still a few scenic items to identify and mark on the plan along with checking on edge profiles and land contours but think I'm getting very close to finalising this track plan.

Boscarne Junction v9 DIAGRAM.jpg

Version 9

Above is how the layout will look when at home. I briefly mentioned that the track plan is now drawn to fit the baseboards. This is due to the comment about knowing angles for baseboard construction. I will construct the three baseboards making the curved scenic section with the same diverging angle (23 degrees). They will either be stackable on each other when boxed or I should be able to construct a rack into which they will all slide.

Below is my cursory thought for exhibitions.
Boscarne Junction v9 Extra Board.jpg
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby davebradwell » Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:19 am

I can't see how you can work a frame from either side by turning it round - doesn't this mess up the logic of the numbering? You'll surely have to position the frame as in the original box. This must be a common problem which I didn't have to face with my frame.

DaveB

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:04 pm

ginger_giant wrote:If I'm going to create off scene signal boxes in the Fiddle Yards, which will use bell codes to communicate with Boscarne Junction signal box,


This is what Barry Luck did for his Plumpton Green layout. See http://www.lbscrmodels.co.uk/index.html The description includes the block instruments and a simplified version of bell codes is used. Plumpton Green is due to be on display at the Bluebell railway exhibition this cominmg weekend although that is a very long way for Ian.

davebradwell wrote: I can't see how you can work a frame from either side by turning it round - doesn't this mess up the logic of the numbering?


Which is why Barry put the lever frame at the front of the layout on the viewing side. A bit unusual pehaps but it works very well and creates a lot of interest from visitors. However if you are the signalman you have to be very careful not to get distracted by questions from visitors. :)

Terry Bendall

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:34 pm

davebradwell wrote:I can't see how you can work a frame from either side by turning it round - doesn't this mess up the logic of the numbering? You'll surely have to position the frame as in the original box. This must be a common problem which I didn't have to face with my frame.

Unless anyone can come up with alternative suggestions, I feel it is something I'm going to have to live with.

Having Boscarne Signal Box lever frame at the front with numbering left to right, as opposed to the diagram being right to left to match track plan, is something I'll have to live with at home. When moved to the back at an exhibition the frame will be correctly orentated matching the diagram.

With Boscarne Junction Ground Frame being located at the front with turnouts and signals directly opposite in a small group (only 8 will be far left of the frame) I don't think it will cause to much of a problem in operation. Dunmere Frame will be at the front and will be the only one correctly orientated.

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:36 am

I have mumbled a little, on a couple of blogs, about my thoughts for baseboard construction. The baseboards for Boscarne Junction are going to be relatively large. If I used the plywood and softwood sandwich technique they’d require two people to move them. The basic idea is to build baseboards that I’ll be able to lift and move around when I’m in my 7th decade.

When visiting York Model Railway show in 2019 I became intrigued with Gordon Gravett’s baseboards for Arran Quay and way he’d sandwiched insulation board between thin plywood. I was not sure about using the same insulation board for the baseboard tops but he had made it work. This method of construction must have created a very light baseboard, easy to lift and move/transport model.

Gordon Gravetts baseboard beam.jpg


Many years ago I purchased a quantity of 2ft x 4ft x 1inch sheets of insulation board for creating hex terrain for wargaming. There are still eleven sheets left from that project which are taking up space in my shed. My intention is to rather than dispose of these sheets is to use them for Boscarne Junction’s baseboards.

20230621_181104.jpg


As my insulation board is only 1 inch thick, I’ll not be following Gordon’s methods fully but to borrow his general idea. Hopefully the drawings below will help to explain my intentions better than words.
Baseboard construction 1.jpg

Baseboard construction 2.jpg
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Worzels Works
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Worzels Works » Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:50 am

That is a fascinating method of construction, I hadn't realised Arun Quay was built that way, I'll be interested to see how you get on with it. Ive thought of using extruded aluminium for my next projects, mainly because I'll have plenty of off cuts after using it for remodelling a garage and workbenches and in my land rover, but it looks like it'll mean thinner baseboards can be made with even more rigidity. a combination of all methods could work quite well I think. Either way good luck, the baseboard sizes certainly look manageable! and I do like the trestle, girder, baseboard way of doing things... notes duly taken :D
Yours aye,
James


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