Boscarne Junction

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:11 pm

Dave thanks for the suggestions
Suggest you include brackets on the wall behind for cassettes in order to clear the main deck - you'll see something like this on Chris's original article.

I've like a few of Chris's ideas and certainly his solution it clearing the deck and transportation of rolling stock as a combine solution. I especially like his solution for automatically stopping engines running off the end of cassettes.
Front of deck could hinge down to improve access at rear, although you'd need a 2 hands catch to avoid disasters.

Hmm.. will have to give this some thought. May be appreciate this idea better when looking at a full size plan.
Biggest improvement to the system since originally published is the addition of an infill down the centre of the cassette leaving just 2 flangeways.

I've used these inserts on my Tredethy Wharf cassettes and appreciate their benefits.
You haven't mentioned layout height

I'm thinking of a similar rail height as Tredethy Wharf which is approximately 4'3". https://tredethywharf.blogspot.com/2010/05/all-this-for-just-three-inches.html

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:41 pm

Some more good thoughts Jeremy
Just picking up on the earlier point about clay train lengths. I hadn't really noticed this before on the prototype but if your loops are more or less scale length, it looks as though the empty clay wagons would also have to return from Bodmin (GWR) in short rakes otherwise they would foul the running lines and prevent the ability to run round/shunt.

I've had to shorten distance between the two mile posts by approximately a scale 150 feet. So it's about 2ft short some of that has been taken out of the exchange siding the rest out of the long siding. Will have to check how much from where and post this later.
if you were to reduce the distance between the entry turnout to the loops and the river you might be able to lessen the curve on the rear, Bodmin North/Dunmere route and reduce the space taken by the fiddleyard a little. This would be at the expense of some length on the rear siding but this seemed to be used mainly for holding wagons so as long as you could get 2 rakes of 8 you wouldn't be compromising the operation significantly.

I like your thinking and there is always a but... I would like to increase the scenic section towards Wadebridge as I believe with the current plan shunting movement will require trains to run into the cassette board. Also I'd like a longer Bodmin/Wenford cassette board I believe it was not uncommon for a Beattie to bring a train of 16 or more full clay wagons down from Wenford. I'm trying to make a compromise between accurately portraying train movements, the location all within the space available and how I'd like to used the remaining space in the room. It's a difficult compromise as many must have faced in the past.

I'll mull over yout ideas though.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:48 pm

I copied the following entry off RMWeb back in 2013 unfortunately I didn't recode by whom. If who ever it was will not mind me reposting the entry here
Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:57
Good day today! I have just had a 'phone call from a chap who worked on the Wenfordbridge trains so I now have the lowdown on the handling of the Wenford line goods traffic at Boscarne Junction.

In a nutshell, the down goods would arrive in the exchange siding and await an up Pass departing for Wadebridge. The engine would then pull forward and cross the Camel bridge before setting back into the Southern siding, collecting the empty clay wagons, then going forward again before finally setting back to rejoin the rest of the train prior to departing for Wenfordbridge.

The up train would normally (not always handled the same way) stop on the Southern line before the junction. The engine and clay wagons for Fowey would then run forward into the exchange siding, the engine would detach, run forward onto the single line the other side of the level crossing and then set back through the Southern line to collect the rest of its train and depart for Wadebridge.

The Western goods with the empty clay wagons would arrive from Bodmin General and run into the Western line where it would detach the brake van which would be screwed down and left there whilst the engine took the clay empties forward over the level crossing and then set back into the Southern siding. Leaving the empties there the engine would cross the level crossing again, then run back through the Southern line and set back onto the full clay wagons for Fowey that were waiting in the exchange siding. Having collected these it would pull forward onto the Western single line, set back onto the brake van and depart for Bodmin General.

There could be variations on this depending on operating circumstances, and the shunter!


As he comments at the end there may have been variations to the above but for the moment this is the best information I have.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:55 pm

Steve
You may already know this, but the Cornwall Railway Society's website has a lo of material old and new, on Boscarne and its surrounds:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.u ... e+junction

The website has a vast archive of images and recollections of Cornish railways and is well worth a browse for anyone interested in rails west of the Tamar.

Thanks for the link and yes I've browsed this site many times so agree is is a usefull source of information on Cornwall's Railways old and new.
I'm also in contact with Andrew Jones who posts on the site. He was very influential in saving the trackbed for use as a recreational pathway and does have recollections of the line which I hope to include in the model.

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Stephan.wintner » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:25 pm

Can the Rospeath Lane storage move, e.g. to under the cassette board at the right?

As is, there's a narrow gap between the corner of Rospeath storage and the edge of the boards, some 18 inches or so. If you can get a bit more space there, accessing the wide areas near the river (e.g. via a step stool) may be a bit easier.

Stephan

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:29 am

Hi Stepen
Can the Rospeath Lane storage move, e.g. to under the cassette board at the right?


At the moment I'm still committed to building Rospeath Lane. My idea for having the storage for Rospeath Lane in that position is so one baseboard at a time could place on top to be worked on. It could also be used as a work area when all boards at stowed away. I'm sort of trying to plan for the future. In time Rospeath Lane could become the permanent layout within the room with Boscarne Junction and Tredethy Wharf in storage.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:49 am

With all that's going on project managing the house renovations, thinking about this new project is a welcome distraction. So much so I awoke this morning wondering if anyone has attempted the follow idea.

After rereading the post above about the goods traffic operations at Boscarne Junction had me thinking (possibly dreaming) last night. I would really have liked a longer scenic section from the level crossing towards Wadebridge this would be to keep the shunting operations within the scenic section of the layout. Last night was wondering about the possibility to have an additional board just for exhibition use. Then this morning I wondered about about having a scenic cassette board... :o

Has anyone tried this or seen one in action?

I'm was already thinking about building new cassettes similar to the one below but with clear perspex sides. This would be to enable checking stock was on the track better that having solid sides.

Stuarts cassette.jpg

This cassette is one from Stuart Holt's superb Kyle of Sutherland layout. I had the pleasure to help operate this layout on a couple of occasions and if memory serves me right these cassettes worked very well. Smooth in operation and faultless in electrical connection. The use of track rather than aluminium angle along with having only one side helped tremendously with putting stock on the track.

If I build something similar but with low perspex sides so they fit within the trackbed, and have them ballasted with correct sleeper spacing would it work? The additional thought is to build up the trackbed above the connections so the connections could be buried within the ballast. So far the three problems I can see with doing this are:
    1. How to devise a method of handling the cassettes.
    2. The problem with placing/lifting the cassettes in/out of the scenic section without damaging any of the scenery.
    3. Making sure each cassette fits without leaving an inconsistent gap to the scenery which would be a distraction

Any thoughts anyone?
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davebradwell
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby davebradwell » Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:03 pm

For ease of re-railing, you'll not beat the standard cassette with infil idea - it's just a long version of a commercial railer and the stock just drops into the flangeways. No need to look at all. If you're going to make them scenic then that's another matter, of course. What's on the other side of the LH wall?!

I feel that with some fiddling, you could move the layout right 6-9" which might help. The thought process is to pivot the whole thing about the bottom right corner - the end of the cassette. If you must preserve gap at rear then whole would require slight re-alignment.

If almost vertical joint between boards 3 and 5 were moved to right then board 3 would be slightly longer and the large board 5 would be narrower and shorter. Line of joint between 3 and 4 remaining unchanged, but longer making 4 wider at this end.

DaveB

Jeremy Good
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Jeremy Good » Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:22 pm

Ian

I think I have seen the scenic cassette/fiddleyard idea used in a couple of cases.

There were a couple of Welsh Marches layouts Penhydd and Bleddfa Road on RMWeb/Western Thunder that I think used a similar idea and another O gauge one, Sherston Abbas, has a short scenic piece that links between layout and sector plate which was added after original construction, again its on RMWeb, I think.

It does, in theory, seem quite a good way of extending the scenic interest into what would otherwise be bare plywood.

Jeremy

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:16 pm

DaveB
I feel that with some fiddling, you could move the layout right 6-9" which might help. The thought process is to pivot the whole thing about the bottom right corner - the end of the cassette. If you must preserve gap at rear then whole would require slight re-alignment.

If I read you correctly, I've tried pivoting the whole plan on the bottom right corner but the layout then hits the protruding wall.I then move the layout so it avoids the protruding wall and then seem to lose too much off the cassette board. I'm still laying with the idea but wondering if compromising cassette board space or reducing the scenic section after the bridge for 6" at the other end might not be worth it. After all what I'm after is about and extra 3ft at the Wadebridge end.
If almost vertical joint between boards 3 and 5 were moved to right then board 3 would be slightly longer and the large board 5 would be narrower and shorter. Line of joint between 3 and 4 remaining unchanged, but longer making 4 wider at this end.

That's a sound idea and works well.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:20 pm

Jeremy

There were a couple of Welsh Marches layouts Penhydd and Bleddfa Road on RMWeb/Western Thunder that I think used a similar idea..

So its not too daft an idea. I was an avid follower of Geoff's and his Penhydd layout. I've Registered with Western Thunder now waiting to see if I'm a suitable gent and get approval.

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Neil Smith
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:54 pm

Our own Geriant Hughes is also using a scenic fiddle yard concept on his new P4 Friden layout.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/154081-fr ... nt-3944596

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johndarch
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby johndarch » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:01 am

Hidden fiddle yards do improve the overall scenic effect of a layout although I do seem to recall exhibition visitors craning their necks to get a view of the fiddle yard on Clinkerford.

Fiddle 02.jpg


It's hiding behind here

stoneworks 12.jpg
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johndarch
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby johndarch » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:13 am

Since posting that, I realised that you won't be accessing the fiddle yard from the rear of the layout. Ooops!!

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Will L
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Will L » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:54 am

johndarch wrote:Hidden fiddle yards do improve the overall scenic effect of a layout although I do seem to recall exhibition visitors craning their necks to get a view of the fiddle yard on Clinkerford.

Absolutely. When I'm at an exhibition I can spend quite a lot of my time trying to see what people have got in their fiddle yards, and if you really care for your visitors, making that possible would not be no bad thing. On our layout in the 80's it took well over an hour before all the stock had appeared out front and audience members who last that long are rare.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:29 am

Thanks for the link Neil, I've PM him as there are a lot of photos missing on his thread that might help explain how he's getting on with his scenic fiddle yard/cassette board.

When I'm at an exhibition I can spend quite a lot of my time trying to see what people have got in their fiddle yards, and if you really care for your visitors, making that possible would not be no bad thing.

I've also found when exhibiting Tredethy Wharf many folks including children like to see the fiddle yards and what is going on behind the scenes. That said if this layout does get to an exhibition it will need a bear minimum of two operators at a time to run the layout. So I'm musing over having the Bodmin Cassette boards hidden when exhibiting but open for home use. When exhibiting I'd use the board hiding the Fiddle yard/Cassette board to display information/photographs of the location and any background information about the layout.

Thoughts at the moment are for the main control panel to be at the left so the Wadebridge Fiddle yard/Cassette board would be open to the public for ease of access for the operator at that end. Still unsure whether to locate the lever frame for Boscarne Ground Frame next the Signal Box lever frame at the left or opposite the Ground Frame hut. The question then will be where to position the few levers of Dunmere Ground Frame that operate the turnout and ground signal at the Bodmin End of the siding 2 at the back?

All ideas are up for negotiation thou... :)

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Tim V
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Tim V » Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:48 am

Seen here, the staging roads on Clutton. No 'fiddling' here, no stock handling.

2016 Trainwest (12).JPG


I once saw at S4N many years ago the fiddle yards on Hampstead Norris (MRJ Compendium 3 - 'Four outings and a funeral') get knocked and virtually all the stock was knocked off, some ending on the floor!

If one walked into Clutton, you ended up with a bruise!
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:14 pm

Tim V wrote:I once saw at S4N many years ago the fiddle yards on Hampstead Norris (MRJ Compendium 3 - 'Four outings and a funeral') get knocked and virtually all the stock was knocked off, some ending on the floor!


I have seen the same thing happen where the cassetts were placed on shelf brackets fixed to the front facia of the fiddle yard. Not nice. :(

Terry Bendall

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Will L
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Will L » Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:49 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:
Tim V wrote:I once saw at S4N many years ago the fiddle yards on Hampstead Norris (MRJ Compendium 3 - 'Four outings and a funeral') get knocked and virtually all the stock was knocked off, some ending on the floor!


I have seen the same thing happen where the cassetts were placed on shelf brackets fixed to the front facia of the fiddle yard. Not nice. :(

When Knutsford East was taking part in the 18.83 challenge its cassette fiddle yards were distinctly and worryingly minimum, as a result of trying to get it all into the 18.83 square feet allowance. Rather more substantial fiddle yards followed later. Despite the rather obvious dangers of the original arrangement, we avoided any problems. The later much more substantial arrangement had vertical storage shelving for cassettes and loose stock. A jar big enough to upset things on these shelves would have had most of the stock on the rest of the layout off as well, and avoidance would probably have required bolting the whole layout to the floor.

Tim V wrote:...
If one walked into Clutton, you ended up with a bruise!

Yes I've seen Clutton being assembled and was mildly surprised at just how substantial it all was. Glad I didn't have to cart it about.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:36 am

Thanks for the view behind the scenes of Clutton Tim. Like many took great pleasure in seeing Clutton when ever I could, but didn't really get a good view of the storage sidings.

I do take everyone's points about shelving to store cassettes along with having a very stable support system for the layout especially at an exhibition. With Tredethy Wharf carrying cassettes around the back of he layout between fiddle boards was done with a certain amount of intrepidation. In hindsight I should have a return line under the scenery to transfer trains between the two boards...hey oh

The idea of a scenic Fiddle yard/cassette board at the Wadebridge end might be for home use only. Hopefully less chance of damage to rolling stock and scenery when installing/lifting cassettes, but it would give me better the visuals when operating at home. Also if I damage anything while at home I'm the only one to blame and it could be repaired without the public gaze. At an exhibition if a guest operator to operate the scenic fiddle yard;
    1 - I don't think it would be a comfortable experience for them
    2 - If any damage is caused they could well be mortified.
    2 - Any damage would affect the operation or visuals of the layout in public.
    3 - Also depending on the amount of damage it could ruin the event.
    4 - Even I would be on a knife edge when using the scenic fiddle board under the pressure of the public gaze.
If I do go down the route of a scenic fiddle yard I would build an additional board to be added at the Wadebridge end. This would be a traditional flat top cassette board or a traverser.

Still playing around with the track plan and will post the next version ASAP.

davebradwell
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby davebradwell » Sat Feb 11, 2023 6:11 pm

Perhaps you might have a scenic piece with thin base in place of cassette while shunting. This would be replaced by standard cassette when train ready to depart. It all seems a bit of a faff but it would provide your scenic experience while operating at home.

We seem to be misunderstanding each other with my rotation idea but never mind. Real point was that you probably don't need much scenery behind the rear track where it disappears onto cassette at RH end and this saves a little length.

One warning - have you checked builders have made room to the size on the drg? I've seen an undersized room cause trouble with layout plan.

DaveB

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:04 pm

ginger_giant wrote:With Tredethy Wharf carrying cassettes around the back of he layout between fiddle boards was done with a certain amount of intrepidation. In hindsight I should have a return line under the scenery to transfer trains between the two boards...hey oh


For through layouts, one solution is to have removable loads in open wagons so a freight train can work full in one direction and work back later empty. We do this on Pulborough and my son and I have done it successfully on Ravenscroft Sidings and in an earlier time on Staverton. Barry Luck does the same thing on Plumpton Green. With a passenger train there may not be a lot of difference in train formations in either direction but workings can be made more interesting with the addition of parcel vans, milk vans and horse boxes, which can be moved by hand between each end. With a though station such traffic can be attached or detached at the station which also adds to the operational interest.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby hughesp87 » Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:53 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Our own Geraint Hughes is also using a scenic fiddle yard concept on his new P4 Friden layout.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/154081-fr ... nt-3944596


Sadly, some of the photos that accompanied the RMWeb posts have disappeared into the ether, so I thought it would be a good idea to summarise my experiences with the concept in the attached note, which I hope will be of interest and of some help to Ian.

Scenic Fiddle Yards.pdf


I would add that for the moment, I don't have much operational experience with what I have constructed, as the layout is dismantled pending some building work in the railway room, but I am pretty confident that it will meet my requirements. Others contemplating this kind of facility will have to make their own judgements, based on their particular circumstances!

Geraint
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Geraint Hughes
Cromford & High Peak in P4
Danish Railways in P87

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:06 pm

Many thanks for the scenic cassette summary Geraint. Looks a good article for the News...

I like the use of 10mm aluminium angle in the building of the cassettes and using it for current collection. Also the thumbscrew to locate/fix the cassette in place.

My concern is how to lift and protect the rolling stock from falling off when moving & swapping cassettes over. My current thought is to have perspex sides. Not ideal as it would distract from the overall concept but for operating at home might be a good idea. Feel this would be a compromise between having an unbroken view of the rolling stock within the scenic FY or a pile of broken wagons and a loco on the floor. The problem I'm having is thinking a solution to lift the cassettes out of the trough within the scenic area. I'm wondering if a mechanical lift might be possible. If there is away to have an electrically driven platform that slowly lifts the cassette up enabling a handle, like Chris Pendlenton describes in MRJ 27, to be clipped on. Still mulling this idea over...

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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:44 am

The picture below shows the cassetts made by Barry Luck for use on Plumpton Green and on Pulborough with Martin Marrison enjoying the use of three link couplings. The aluminium angle is 16mmm x 16mm. In the botton right hand corner one of the lifting handles can be seen. These are made from aluminium strip jpoimed across the top with a pice of paxolin fixed by pop rivets. The handles pivot on pop rivets at the bottom of each upright. They are only lifted over each other on the fiddle yard top. So far notmhing has been dropped. The angle is screwed to 12mm thick MDF and forms the "rails" of the fiddle yard with power transferred by folded over brass clips. They work.

Terry Bendall
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