Boscarne Junction

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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ginger_giant
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Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:46 am

After enjoying SolRail last November I've been contemplating my next layout that could replace Tredethy Wharf as an exhibition layout. Some of my ponderings can be found at the following here on my revamped blog page. What follows is the result of those ponderings...

It was way back in 2008 when I was first contemplating building a layout of Boscarne Junction. That one was going to be a fictional take on the junction using some what might have beens. Why fictional? Well it was going to be my first foray into P4 and I wasn't confident about building a model of a real location to an acceptable standard. Tredethy Wharf has given me some confidence that I could achieve a reasonable model of Boscarne and if I don't give it a go I'll never know

After much thought and a few plans drawn I think the plan below is the best I can do to represent Boscarne Junction in my new 'Man Cave'.

Boscarne Junction 12wagon exchange siding-layout only.jpg


I've used an old OS map of the junction for scale. A few compromises have been made so it fits in the room and be functional. These are:
    Shortened Siding 1 (the exchange siding) by approximately a scale 152 feet
    The curve of the line to Bodmin General has been increased
    The river and therefore the bridge over the river on the line to Bodmin General has been moved closer to the junction.
There are a few quirks with the track plan that I only noticed when looking through photographs of the junction.
    There is a very slight curved running through the first turnout just after the level crossing.
    The first turnout from Bodmin General is curved towards the GWR line but straight towards Siding 1 (the exchange siding).
    It looks like the catch point at the Bodmin end of Siding 1 is part of the turnout. I'll try and post a photo to confirm this in a follow up blog.
There are a few niceties that I need to think about:
    How to transfer clay wagons between the hidden sidings a little more securely than on Tredethy Wharf.
    Will it be DC or DCC or even have the ability to to run both.
    How to build very lightweight baseboards so that in 10 years time, when I'm a little frailer, I'll still be able to exhibit the layout.
    What support structure should I build for the layout? The supports for Tredethy Wharf are now more stable but they take a lot of time to erect and dismantle.
    Should there two control panels, one for Boscarne Signal Box the second for the Ground Frame, or just one control panel.
    Where and how to install the Control panels.
    The cassettes on Tredethy Wharf need improving so need to look for better designs.
More thoughts and problems to solve will no doubt come to light as this project progresses.
It's a shame that I couldn't include the SR bridge over the river Camel but even so I'm hoping the layout still captures the feel of the junction.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:20 am

Looks like a very interesting layout Ian with a lot of operating potential.

ginger_giant wrote:Tredethy Wharf has given me some confidence that I could achieve a reasonable model of Boscarne and if I don't give it a go I'll never know


Based on what I have seen of Tredethy Wharf, I would have thought that you would not have any problems! :)

ginger_giant wrote:The cassettes on Tredethy Wharf need improving so need to look for better designs.


Barry Luck uses cassettes on Plumpton Green and the Pulborough fiddle yards have been adapted to use them as well. These are made for 16mm aluminium angle 5 feet long screwed to a 12 mm thick MDF base and are fitted with lifting handles at each end. There are separate loco cassettes. The train cassesstes are not turned round, only lifted over others in the fiddle yard. When a train comes into the FY the loco is uncoupled, driven onto the loco cassette and moved to the other end of the train. It then driven onto the main cassesste and coupled up. All frieight trains have a brake van at each end but if that it not done it is very easy to uncouple the van and move it by hand. Cassesttes are joined with folded over brass clips. It all works very well. Barry's stock stays in the cassettes all the time and they travel in purpose made long boxes, four to a box with lots of foam padding which is also very effective.

ginger_giant wrote:What support structure should I build for the layout?


I use simple three legged wooden trestles for the baseboards which are simple to build and put up and don't take that much room in a vehicle when going to exhibitions. Lighting pelmets are a bit more of a problem but modern LED lighting strips are light in weight. There seem to be as many ways of doing lighting as there are layouts so a look round at a few shows should give some ideas.

Terry Bendall

davebradwell
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby davebradwell » Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:36 am

I suggest you look at the signalling which is not shown on your plan and consider its implications, particularly clearing distance, before finalising your scheme.

As for cassettes, Chris Pendlenton first wrote of these way back in MRJ 27. With 1/2" angle on an 8mm base, normal double track centres could be used. The original article also mentions various refinements which appear to have been lost with time - someone should reprint it.

DaveB

bécasse
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby bécasse » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:32 pm

It is a location that has interested me over the last 60+ years and which I have studied in some detail. I do have copies of the diagrams for both the signal box and the two ground frames although they are far too large to copy as they are.

I did do an analysis of the train working for the summer of 1963 (which might not be quite right as the details of goods workings that I had were for a different year) and I have appended the diagrams that I prepared separately for SX and SO.
B&WTTsum1963SX.pdf

B&WTTsum1963SO.pdf
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Tim V
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Tim V » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm

You have an extremely deep layout, but have you considered joining the two 'fiddle yards' on the right together - making a loop at that end? Then it would make a double ended staging roads - making it a lot easier to operate and getting rid of those pesky cassettes - less stock handling.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm

ginger_giant wrote:How to build very lightweight baseboards so that in 10 years time, when I'm a little frailer, I'll still be able to exhibit the layout.
What support structure should I build for the layout? The supports for Tredethy Wharf are now more stable but they take a lot of time to erect and dismantle.


Looks very interesting. I'm on the same kind of page as you. There may be some ideas for you to look at (and probably reject! :)) here. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8165

I need to update it to describe the folding rigid supports I've made

Suddaby
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Suddaby » Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:18 pm

Hi Ian,

That looks interesting, and as Terry says should give some interesting operation. I just wondered about the fiddle yards being different sizes. Do trains from the longer of the two yards, get reduced in size, and not travel right through? I would have thought you had an ideal train length, and all FY's would support that, unless of course one is a branch with much shorter trains. Just wondered.....?

Oh, and from what I have seen of Tredethy Wharf, you will have no problem with this layout.

Kevin
Rochdale MRG
45509 Division

Andrew Ullyott
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:29 am

Hi Ian
Looking good.
I agree with Tim that linking the Wenfordbridge and Bodmin fiddle yards would be a good idea to avoid handling the empties and returns. Have you thought about using two sector plates with a direct link between. If you don't fancy making your own, Tim Horn baseboards now do a 5ft turntable fiddle yard unit. I've got two of them for my layout. You could have a hidden returned siding/track(s) between, potentially allowing further storage. There should be plenty for all the rakes of clay wagons!

Jeremy Good
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Jeremy Good » Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:16 pm

But don't forget that the rakes of full/empty clay wagons going up the hill to Bodmin General were unbalanced.

From the info I have seen they had to be split into rakes of 8 loaded wagons for a 45XX to get up the hill - they were recombined in Bodmin General into rakes of up to 24 for the run down to Bodmin Road. There are quite a lot of engine and brake van moves between Bodmin General and Boscarne as a result and the rakes of loaded wagons had a brake van at each end to allow ease of running round. At least it means the cassettes for the loaded trains don't need to be too long....

I don't think those limits affected the empties running back to Boscarne Junction - that was simply limited by the run-round capacity at Bodmin General....

Jeremy

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby stephenfreeman » Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:10 pm

If you are interested in the signalling, I should have the details somewhere on the computer though problems with Windows has caused some problems recently, which has resulted in some file loss. I will have a further look.

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Neil Smith
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Neil Smith » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:22 pm

Oh good! Having now been photographed in the Snooze as proof of my admiration of Tredethy Wharf, this is excellent news Ian!

Regarding your secret transfer - you surely have enough headway under the footpath to have a hidden route across the back?

Anyway, best of luck, I am looking forward to seeing how you progress!

Neil

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:38 pm

Many thanks guys for all comments and suggestions.

Cassettes
Terry
Barry's stock stays in the cassettes all the time and they travel in purpose made long boxes, four to a box with lots of foam padding which is also very effective.

That sounds an interesting and time saving solution when arriving and departing from exhibitions.

Dave Bradwell
As for cassettes, Chris Pendlenton first wrote of these way back in MRJ 27. With 1/2" angle on an 8mm base, normal double track centres could be used. The original article also mentions various refinements which appear to have been lost with time - someone should reprint it.

I'll dig out MRF 27 and have a read.

Tim & Andrew
I'm currently working on a new track plan which will combine Bodmin General and Bodmin North cassette boards.

Signalling
Below is my understanding of the signalling at Boscarne and Dunmere.
My drawing of Signal Box Diagram.jpg

Stephen Freeman. If your able to find the files Stephen how does the about compare to your references?

Clay Traffic and timetables
I've been working on a timetable. Unfortunately Iby combining four different sources
Source 1: - Operation Cornwall - Train Services and Carriage workings 1958 - pg47
Source 2: - BR Western Working Freight Timetable 1959 - Table 97
Source 3: - BR Western Region Passenger Working Timetable 1959
Source 4:- District Controller's View No16 North Cornwall pg 67
Source 5: - The Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway, CFD Whetmath - 1962 SR Timetable pg 71/72

bécasse
I'll download your 1963 timetables and compare.

Jermey Good
I am aware of the restriction to 8 clay wagons working up the hill but not aware of the complete workings of the goods workings to/from and through the junction. I'm feeling the BR Western Working Freight Timetable does not give a full picture of how the goods traffic was handled.

Baseboards and Supports
Julian Roberts
Thank you for the link
I need to update it to describe the folding rigid supports I've made
please do...

I've been thinking of building baseboards similar to Gordon Gravett's Arun Quay. Not committed as yet so still open to suggestions.
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Jeremy Good
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Jeremy Good » Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:45 pm

Ian

I did some research into the clay workings before settling on the design of the fiddle yard for my Bodmin General layout. I ended up with a hybrid design with cassettes for the clay trains so that I could swap empty and loaded rakes without handling.

Some of the info came from articles in GWR Journal and also from the Whetmath book. I’ll see what I can dig out and email you. I did come up with a train plan for Boscarne J at one point as I have considered using at as “in effect” a scenic fiddleyard for the Wadebridge/Wenford traffic.

I look forward to seeing how you get on with this.

Jeremy

bécasse
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby bécasse » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:37 pm

As soon as I get time, I will check your signalling diagram against my official copies, but I can already see one discrepancy.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:17 pm

ginger_giant wrote:
Baseboards and Supports
Julian Roberts
Thank you for the link
I need to update it to describe the folding rigid supports I've made
please do...

I've been thinking of building baseboards similar to Gordon Gravett's Arun Quay. Not committed as yet so still open to suggestions.


Allan Goodwillie has made lightweight baseboards for his Scotts Road layout


viewtopic.php?t=5510

BTW I have updated my thread but weighing scales are kaput. Not because of my baseboards!

Terry Bendall
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:21 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Not committed as yet so still open to suggestions.


The series of articles that I wrote on baseboard construction, and which appeard in scalefour News 170 December 2010 to 177, May 2012 may be useful. I also mentioned construction of simple three leg trestles as a support for baseboards which is a very simple way of doing that job. Back numbers of the News can be found on the Society web site.

Terry Bendall

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:22 am

Allan Goodwillie has made lightweight baseboards for his Scotts Road layout


viewtopic.php?t=5510


I fine set of posts by Allan Goodwillie's. I've not completely finished reading all posts but I'm thinking using Aluminium angle for baseboard frames is a little beyond my skill set. It's material I doubt I'll be comfortable using especially with some of the strange angles that I might have to use along with with the curved edges.

The series of articles that I wrote on baseboard construction, and which appeard in scalefour News 170 December 2010 to 177, May 2012 may be useful. I also mentioned construction of simple three leg trestles as a support for baseboards which is a very simple way of doing that job. Back numbers of the News can be found on the Society web site.


My copies of Saclefours News along with GWR Journal are still in boxes since we moved house. I'm trying to locate them but they must be, due their weight, at the bottom of a stack of boxes somewhere. :(

My Signal Diagram was drawn a couple of months ago. After looking at it again I've realised I'd made a couple of mistakes so below is the corrected version. I hope this is a little more accurate for the location for period 1959-1962 and possibly 1964.

My drawing of Signal Box Diagram.jpg
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Will L
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Will L » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:08 pm

ginger_giant wrote:My copies of Saclefours News along with GWR Journal are still in boxes since we moved house. I'm trying to locate them but they must be, due their weight, at the bottom of a stack of boxes somewhere. :(

While we can't help with the GWR Journal, Scalefour News back issues are avaible here Scalefour News Archive. You will need to be loged in to the forum.

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby stephenfreeman » Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:06 pm

I have now located the plan and photos.

The plan is very close if not identical to your plan. The one I have is the SRS plan. I have also located photos of some of the prototype signals. I don't have the copyright on these so perhaps best if I send them direct if needed. There were some fairly unusual signals there it has to be said.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:35 pm

The plan is very close if not identical to your plan. The one I have is the SRS plan. I have also located photos of some of the prototype signals. I don't have the copyright on these so perhaps best if I send them direct if needed. There were some fairly unusual signals there it has to be said.


Thank you for checking Stephen.

Signals will be a first for me and I'm looking forward to the challenge. However the two ground signals next to the level crossing (19-20 on the Signal Box frame) are somewhat unfamiliar. When It comes around to constructing the signals I'll probably post a picture or two of these ground signals in the signalling area of this forum for help.

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ginger_giant
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby ginger_giant » Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:25 pm

I've taken on board the suggestion to combine the Bodmin North and Bodmin General Cassette Boards and come up with the amended plan below.

Boscarne Junction v5_2 Fiddle Yards.jpg

Thought it best I show the layout in the room to give a better idea of the constraints I'm working with (each square is 1ft).

At the outset I didn't want to make the compromise of curving the Bodmin North Line but it does solve the problem very well with transferring full and empty clay wagons between the Bodmin North/Wenford and Bodmin General Lines.
Other bonuses this plan gives are;
    a. It will allow me to include the other bridge over the River Camel.
    b. With enough trees this compromise of curving the Bodmin North line could be masked quite well.
    c. The trees will also be a natural break between the bridge and junction to give a tantalising glimpse of trains running over the bridge to/from Bodmin North/Wenford before they appear at the junction or disappear onto the cassette board.
    d. By extending the Bodmin North line will allow any shunting of Siding 2 from this end to be contained mainly within the scenic section of the layout.

Concerns I have;
    a. The depth of the new Cassette Board on the right
    b. The overall size of the new Cassette Board and whether it should be broken down into two sections.
    c. The depth of the curved corner section and the ability to work on it when completing the scenic details with both boards together.
    d. The shapes of the new baseboards and the difficulty in transporting them if it became exhibitable.

There will no doubt be some alterations before I start baseboard construction. Once I get an empty room the best move might be to lay a full size plan out on the floor to gain am appreciation of the layouts size. Doing so may throw up further concerns which are not evident on paper.

Any way it's back to decorating tomorrow and checking the builders are laying the flag stones as planned in kitchen/dining area along with chasing up the HETAS engineer, Cooker supplier, Plumber, Electrician and Stonemason.

It's not dull here... :D
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davebradwell
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby davebradwell » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:48 am

You can make your cassette deck a little narrower as space behind the far track can't really be used except perhaps for locos. Suggest you include brackets on the wall behind for cassettes in order to clear the main deck - you'll see something like this on Chris's original article. In fact you could have a false wall to bring it forwards. Front of deck could hinge down to improve access at rear, although you'd need a 2 hands catch to avoid disasters. Don't forget that the cassette adaptors take up some length in joining to ordinary track.

Biggest improvement to the system since originally published is the addition of an infill down the centre of the cassette leaving just 2 flangeways. It's very difficult to be certain that vehicles are actually on the rails without and all too often trains would emerge with wagons bumping down the sleepers despite the re-railers. Many folk have missed this trick which also makes railing stock so much easier - a no-brainer as they say.

You haven't mentioned layout height and I would ask if you need the narrow gap at the rear - perhaps it's just for stuff not yet defined.

Jeremy Good
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Jeremy Good » Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:53 am

Ian,

Just picking up on the earlier point about clay train lengths. I hadn't really noticed this before on the prototype but if your loops are more or less scale length, it looks as though the empty clay wagons would also have to return from Bodmin (GWR) in short rakes otherwise they would foul the running lines and prevent the ability to run round/shunt.

In terms of your design, the revised version incorporating the river certainly helps to set the location and will add more scenic interest. I am not sure how much you have compressed the length but if you were to reduce the distance between the entry turnout to the loops and the river you might be able to lessen the curve on the rear, Bodmin North/Dunmere route and reduce the space taken by the fiddleyard a little. This would be at the expense of some length on the rear siding but this seemed to be used mainly for holding wagons so as long as you could get 2 rakes of 8 you wouldn't be compromising the operation significantly.

As Dave Bradwell mentions there is not a huge need for a massive deck to the cassette boards especially if you can have a vertical stacking element. For the revised Wheal Elizabeth fiddleyard the cassette deck is only 30 cm wide but allow enough room to swap around between 3 cassettes with space to store additional stock on the deck. It works well despite the access restrictions I have at home. The infill along the centre line is a significant improvement to the original ideas and does make rerailing so much easier!

Jeremy

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steve howe
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby steve howe » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:53 pm

Hi Iain,

You may already know this, but the Cornwall Railway Society's website has a lo of material old and new, on Boscarne and its surrounds:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/apps/search?q=boscarne+junction

The website has a vast archive of images and recollections of Cornish railways and is well worth a browse for anyone interested in rails west of the Tamar.

Steve

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Will L
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Re: Boscarne Junction

Postby Will L » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:00 pm

davebradwell wrote:...Biggest improvement to the system since originally published is the addition of an infill down the centre of the cassette leaving just 2 flangeways. It's very difficult to be certain that vehicles are actually on the rails without and all too often trains would emerge with wagons bumping down the sleepers despite the re-railers. Many folk have missed this trick which also makes railing stock so much easier - a no-brainer as they say...

Having spent long hours operating this sort of cassette fiddle yard at exhibition, I would like to strongly endorse this Idea. Perhaps no quite so important for a home layout but none the less a simple and easy way to avoid problems.


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