Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

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MarcD
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Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:14 pm

Being new to P4 I thought I would start small and as I already had the layout in a boxfile for the 7mm version, that never got off the ground I thought I would have a go at that to start with. In addition to being a test layout it needs to be able to demonstrate my Flippem Automatic Coupling and not take up to much room in the office and on the stand.
The plan for the stock is GER circ 1900. Using W&U tram locos to start with.
I working on scaling down most of my 7mm wagons so I will no be short of wagons very shortly.
Marc
www.pregroupingrailways.com for everything built before 1923

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Paul Willis
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:39 pm

MarcD wrote:Being new to P4 I thought I would start small and as I already had the layout in a boxfile for the 7mm version, that never got off the ground I thought I would have a go at that to start with. In addition to being a test layout it needs to be able to demonstrate my Flippem Automatic Coupling and not take up to much room in the office and on the stand.
The plan for the stock is GER circ 1900. Using W&U tram locos to start with.
I working on scaling down most of my 7mm wagons so I will no be short of wagons very shortly.
Marc


Ooh! GER in the late Victorian/Edwardian period. Just my cup of tea, and that of at least one other person that I know in the GERS. Very nice.

Which tram model are you planning to use? Connoisseur, D&S or something else?

Y6 tram (42).JPG


Do keep us posted on wagon developments, as there are distinct gaps in what is available in 4mm, given the disappearance of many kits.

Cheers
Paul
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MarcD
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:52 pm

Hi Paul,
I was trying to develop a RTR loco in 7mm but I couldn't get the build cost down to the point that people would be prepared to pay and still leave me with a profit to its going to be a kit now. And since I have all the CAD models done it would be silly not to scale it down to 4mm.
As for the wagons If I can print a steel under frame I should be able to have at least 14 different wagons all GER with very little effort. the alternative is to scale down the etched brass chassis I have in 7mm to 4mm and just drop tops on to them. If you had to choose a method which one would you do?
Marc
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Paul Willis
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Paul Willis » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:11 pm

MarcD wrote:Hi Paul,
I was trying to develop a RTR loco in 7mm but I couldn't get the build cost down to the point that people would be prepared to pay and still leave me with a profit to its going to be a kit now. And since I have all the CAD models done it would be silly not to scale it down to 4mm.
As for the wagons If I can print a steel under frame I should be able to have at least 14 different wagons all GER with very little effort. the alternative is to scale down the etched brass chassis I have in 7mm to 4mm and just drop tops on to them. If you had to choose a method which one would you do?
Marc


Hi Marc,

Ah, if you've already done the CAD work for a G15 tram, then that would indeed be very easy. I'm sure that you would have a fair few takers in 4mm. A few years ago, I managed to sell 36 Connoisseur kits of them, across the Scalefour and GERS membership, and I know that there is still people who ask about them.

The chassis in P4 can be about as simple as you want to make it - mine is literally two strips of brass, with hornblocks for it to be sprung. A High Level gearbox and motor, and a DCC chip slung on top.

Y6 tram (24).jpg


For the wagons, I know exactly what you mean about the standard steel underframe. I'd definitely be looking for an etched chassis. Ideally with springing. Then, as you say, a variety of bodies can put on top, whether they are printed, etched, scratchbuilt or whatever. I've got halfway along drawing it up based on a Dia.17 wagon.

GER Dia17 CAD.JPG


Cheers
Paul
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MarcD
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:36 pm

In 7mm I do
Dia 18 3plk FS
Dia 68 3plk DS
Dia16 5plk
Dia 17 5plk
Dia 48 7plk the kit makes up about 130 variations
Dia 31 loco coal
Dia 15 box van
Dia 15 vent van
Dia 15 fitted vent van
Dia 9 GPV
Dia 29 single bolster
Dia 7 large cattle
Dia 1 brake van (9 ft and 10ft6 WB)

I have 4 different tops drawn for the tram loco. And my 7mm chassis look remarkable like your photo. I'm going to put a test etch together for some 4mm stuff brakes etch so I will add the chassis and cow catchers to that.
Marc
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Will L
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Will L » Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:27 am

What I'd like to know is what the chances of a C53 (J70) chassis kit. I do agree this would be the complexity opposite of Paul's G15 (Y6).

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Paul Willis
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Paul Willis » Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:44 am

Will L wrote:What I'd like to know is what the chances of a C53 (J70) chassis kit. I do agree this would be the complexity opposite of Paul's G15 (Y6).


With or without the valve gear Will?

That's the real question...

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Paul
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MarcD
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:00 pm

Putting my manufacturing head on if it was without the valve gear as the skirts would hide them. Then pretty easy, with the valve gear lets not go there! The top is the same as the G15 with the outside windows, the boiler, smoke box and firebox asm is the same Its just the bottom of the footplate and the cow catcher that would need to be altered. I have full set of GAs sat in the box as I had thought about doing on if the G15 ever sold. I have also a J65 kit from Jim in 7mm that I had planed to back engineer. Before anyone asks I already spoken to Jim and he is not planning to reintroduce the kit.

Marc
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Will L
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Will L » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:31 pm

Paul Willis wrote:
Will L wrote:What I'd like to know is what the chances of a C53 (J70) chassis kit. I do agree this would be the complexity opposite of Paul's G15 (Y6).


With or without the valve gear Will?

That's the real question...

I've considered both, but somehow leaving it off seems just too much like cheating...

MarcD
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:52 pm

I've just taken delivery of a batch of P4 gauges which I got from a well known website selling 2nd had stuff. One of the gauges was a back to back gauge when measured it with two different callipers I got a range of sizes form 17.50 to 17.67 have I got a dud?

Marc
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Winander
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Winander » Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:57 pm

The digest covering track and wheel standards https://www.scalefour.org/members/diges ... -2v2-4.pdf Table 1. shows a minimum back to back of 17.67mm. Assuming the two callipers have confirmed each other, it does seem to be a dud. There is plenty on here about the 'ideal' back to back and I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I don't recall seeing 17.67mm as recommended. If it is made of brass, it could be resurrected with a lathe/milling machine. I have an 'L' shaped back to back purchased from Gibson's at a show where our stores were out of stock (and I believe they supply the stores anyway) and would describe it as of limited use. This was some time ago and the product may be better now, or not.

I hope you got some value out of the other stuff, some of the older track gauges appear to be quite useful.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:24 am

Winander wrote: I have an 'L' shaped back to back purchased from Gibson's at a show where our stores were out of stock (and I believe they supply the stores anyway) and would describe it as of limited use.


The various gauges sold in the stores have come from a range of suppliers over the years but more recent ones have been made by an engineeering company local to me.

Winander wrote: If it is made of brass, it could be resurrected with a lathe/milling machine.


A steel gauge that is oversize could be machined to the corrct dimensions but whether made of steel or brass would need to be set up correctly so the faces remained parallel and the dimensions were within the stated limits. Probably better to dump it and buy a new one! :)

Terry Bendall

MarcD
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby MarcD » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:44 pm

This one is at the very low end of tolerances and It's a steel L.

Marc
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Philip Hall
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Re: Bow Locks a micro in a boxfile

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:25 pm

Even digital calipers are known to be a bit variable although I do have one pair that are comparable to my micrometer. I would try and check what you have with a micrometer. The standards say that minimum b-b is 17.67 and maximum is 17.75, so long as yours falls between those two figures you will be fine. I have used 17.7mm for many years as a ball park figure for the last forty years which undeniably works well (because my engines and stock have been built for many different people and layouts) but as Richard says, there has been much discussion about variables within the recommended dimensions. But for a starter it is unnecessary to get bogged down in this.

For a beginner (and given you have acquired some different sizes) it is imperative to select a gauge that matches the standards within the limits above, and stick to it. Only use the one for everything and you should not go wrong. Bear in mind that manufacturing tolerances will play a part here as well.

Philip


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