Ouse Viaduct/Balcombe/Lewes project

Tell us about your layout, where you put it, how you built it, how you operate it.
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LesGros
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby LesGros » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:03 pm

The key to it all, as we see it, complete flexibility from the smallest combination to the 'full monty', to give EMs the choice.


Apropos my earlier post on scalefour standard module connections; It would appear that the connections you guys come up with could, if published in a digest, be a de-facto interim standard.

What do others think?

regards
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

pinkmouse

Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby pinkmouse » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:00 pm

Just to add a little spice to the thread, one of the other Eridge gang, Mark, has been Templotting Tonbridge...

:)

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Re6/6
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Re6/6 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:53 am

LesGros wrote:Apropos my earlier post on scalefour standard module connections; It would appear that the connections you guys come up with could, if published in a digest, be a de-facto interim standard.


This is the European FREMO P87 standard end board.
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We will be using our own profile (yet to be worked out) for the intermediate scenic boards which will give us the length flexibility. Obviously the main feature boards Balcombe/viaduct/Lewes will have the profile ends at their extremities, thus allowing quite a large variety of 'set ups'.

The most important requirement for any FREMO system is a meticulous attention to scenic continuity. I've seen some FREMO layouts at home and in Europe
that, frankly, looked like a patchwork quilt!

This is an example of the German FREMO P87 set up "Hölle"
IMG_3827.JPG
You can just make out the baseboard join line at about '4 o'clock'. It shows the importance of scenic continuity for this system to be convincing.
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John

Gurra G
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Gurra G » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:03 am

In Sweden we have a club called MMM. They get together about four times a year to build ”something”. Each module must have specific measurements for the end board: Track centre 130 mm from front. The with on each module is 28 or 48 or 68 cm and the length 40 or 60 or 80 or 100 cm and so on. They usually are about 120 cm. The October event 2009 I do think they got about 200 meters of track or if it was a bit more. I copy a link below.

I’m right now building a 400 cm station module in four parts in 00 scale. Un fortunately it is not possible to combine this with P4 since everybody else is building in H0. But it's a way to show the British way of modelling.

My advice is that you all decide on three or four end board profiles. As you can notice on the photos and the youtube clip in the end of this text you will find that the end profiles does not match in profile. It makes it look quite bad in some parts. The same problem is the colour on the front sides. In MMM it is grey, green or brown. To much and too bad. One colour code is in my world the best. Un fortunately I live in Sweden and can’t fly over with my modules but it would have been fun building a P4 layout on about 200 yards or more.

If you like to I can send over the technical specifications on MMM. I have to translate a bit before I send it though.

Here are some pictures of how the MMM meeting looks like.
http://hakang.zmn.se/A107791

http://hakang.zmn.se/A120155

And a Youtube clip


Best regards
Gustav
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About the little town Middleford

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:31 pm

Thanks Gustav, that looks like a lot of fun!

We seem to be heading off though into discussions about modular layouts in general, which is not what Balcombe etc is about, although we are using some of the concepts. Balcombe is a bespoke design, which can be configured in a number of different ways by including or excluding certain sections, and it is there that some Fremo-type ideas will be employed, but it is not intended to be the basis of anything like your MMM set up, nor of other similar Fremo meetings, interesting though they are.

Maybe a separate new topic should be started for general P4 modular layout construction?
Rod

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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Gurra G » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:56 pm

I do apologise for hijacking your topic. It was not my intention, rather that I’m a poor reader and should have understood what you just wrote. Please keep up the good work and share it with us. 8-)

Regards
Gustav
http://omkonstenattvaragud.blogspot.com/
About the little town Middleford

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:25 am

No problem at all Gustav, and thanks Keith for opening the modular layouts topic :)
Rod

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Penrhos1920 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:48 am

Rod Cameron wrote:John Farmer (Re6/6) and I had been thinking about Balcombe (Brighton main line) as a modular end-to-end layout on which we could run full-length EMUs such as 6PUL/6PAN etc including a representation of the Ouse Viaduct. None of these tiny shunting planks for us! ;) I then thought about the attraction of seeing these trains snake over some nice P4 trackwork, and Lewes floated into my head again, as it is wont to on occasions like this.

So, having Templotted Balcombe

I then had a go at Lewes - '....see those trains traverse the junctions from the London end to the Newhaven end and vice-versa.....run trains on the route between the Oxted lines and Brighton. ....The "Brighton" fiddle yard is double-ended, so that it can receive trains from the Oxted lines via Lewes, and also Brighton-bound trains on the main line which would 'disappear' after crossing the viaduct....what about joining the Eridge layout on? And so I arrived at

I'm exhausted just thinking about that
Continued wrote:
Now to have all these joined together in an exhibition would be a fairly gargantuan affair, but we're quite serious at having a go at this .... Baseboards for Balcombe itself are being designed, and I'm planning on getting started on the trackwork in Lewes later this year just to get some momentum going.

Should all keep us busy for a while!


Maybe too busy?

At our recent Toerag meeting we discussed your layout ideas and thought we'd like to offer our assistance. But none of us knows a thing about the railways of the South East. After a fair amount of head scratching and the like we have two proposals:

1) We'll make some or all of the fiddle yards you need. Having a lot of success with cassette fiddle yards which have evolved over time, we have now improved the concept to what we believe is the ultimate cassette based system. Originally we started with 4' long cassettes, but they were too short for some trains. So we then tried long cassettes, but they are too awkward to turn and resulted in at least one train fell to the floor :cry: so we tried something shorter. Anyway to cut a long story short we now use single axle cassettes ;) . We have also experimented with different aluminium sections, 12 x 12 and 25 x 25 were the first two tried. However, sometimes stock comes off and will no rail by itself, even with the right bits between the tracks to drag wheels back into line. 12 x 12 is too tight for even small fingers to gain access to the offending wheels. 25 x 25 is too big and prevents tracks entering the fiddle yard at the correct double track spacing. So we eventually settled on 12 x 12, but cut down in height for most of the length so the wheels can be accessed. Oh and end stops have their very own requirement, but to cut that short the best source is a certain discount shop with underground car-park near the Scaleforum venue.

2) We were so taken by the upside down fiddle yard concept of one of the layouts at Houten that is appears perfect for the end fiddle yards. Yes, honestly trains appear to fall off the end of the layout, they don't crash to the floor, but line up orderly under the layout, UPSIDE DOWN. :o :shock: So we are going to investigate that a little further and see if it will be of use.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread, but a poor fiddle yard can cripple an otherwise excellent layout. On the other hand a good fiddle yard goes unnoticed and makes a layout a pleasure to operate and view. ;)
Last edited by Penrhos1920 on Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Getting it Alright

Penrhos Junctions near Caerphilly - Barry Rly, Rhymney Rly and A(N&SW)D&R 1920 and pseudo modern image in S4F
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Awrhyllgwami for DEMU challenge
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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:58 am

This all seems very helpful chaps, but I can't help but notice the date today - no doubt you will put me right if that is mere coincidence, in which case we will be pleased to discuss!
Rod

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Penrhos1920 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:07 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:This all seems very helpful chaps, but I can't help but notice the date today - no doubt you will put me right if that is mere coincidence, in which case we will be pleased to discuss!


Sorry Rod, well done for spotting it. At least one person has fallen for it as I've received a PM asking for more information.

We hope to see Balcombe, Ouse Viaduct, Lewis and Eridge in the not too distant future.
Richard
Getting it Alright

Penrhos Junctions near Caerphilly - Barry Rly, Rhymney Rly and A(N&SW)D&R 1920 and pseudo modern image in S4F
and
Awrhyllgwami for DEMU challenge
and
Dispelling the P4 drop in wheel myth
and
TOERAG Obergruppenführer

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LesGros
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby LesGros » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:33 pm

Ah, So the April fool joke is that TOERAG are experts at fiddling?

...So, perhaps not all a Joke then? :)
LesG

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never made anything useful

John B
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby John B » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:46 pm

This looks like a spectacular plan, Rod and John - congratulations on having the sheer vision, and good luck on the execution.

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Captain Kernow » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:47 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:
Mike Garwood wrote:Is all of this going to be built by the DRAGsters?
It's not a DRAG project as such Mike, any more than Matford, Callow Lane etc, but if any other DRAG members want to chip in that would be fine

I have in particular offered my services in support of research field trips.... ;) :D
Tim M
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Brinkly
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Brinkly » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:20 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:I have in particular offered my services in support of research field trips.... ;) :D


Trust you! :D

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Captain Kernow » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:09 pm

Brinkly wrote:
Captain Kernow wrote:I have in particular offered my services in support of research field trips.... ;) :D


Trust you! :D

That's me, 'Honest John Kernow', the One you can Trust... :D
Tim M
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Brinkly
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Brinkly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:32 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:That's me, 'Honest John Kernow', the One you can Trust... :D


You could stand for Parliament with that slogan! :D ;)

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Re6/6
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Re6/6 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:28 pm

The first baseboard has now been built for one of the 'generic' scenery sections. It has worked out very well indeed. Pink 50mm polyfoam insulation board was used, (available from B&Q at about £20 for a pack of four [1200mm x 500mm]). 100mm deep 4mm thick birch-faced ply was glued to the long sides with 'No More Nails' type solvent free grab adhesive and 9mm marine ply was used for the 'FREMO' style ends, with patternmakers dowels fitted.
Underneath transverse bracing was fitted (6mm thick x 50mm deep) to stop any torsional twisting

The polyfoam is dense enough to take 4" x no12 screws which would grip sufficiently to allow the side/end panels to be screwed tight enough whilst the adhesive takes. This saves a lot of clamping up. The bonus with this type of construction is its lightness. Upper scenery, embankments, contours will be made from the conventional white polystyrene, the sort available from builders merchants in 50/100mm thickness 2440x1220mm size sheets as it's a lot cheaper.



The next one that will be made will built allowing for an 'under rail' type bridge. Not quite worked that out yet!

All in all, I'm very pleased with the final thing. I got the idea from an old issue of MRJ, which showed the construction of the baseboards for Gordon Gravett's 'Pempoul'.
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John

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Tue May 04, 2010 4:35 pm

After a very pleasant and productive planning session yesterday, we're now virtually ready to go with the commissioned laser cutting of the fiddly repetitive bits for the viaduct. Final tweaking of the specification and scope is going on with York Modelmaking today. The laser cutting work will comprise 74 balustrade sections with 19 arches in each; the main arch sections for the eight pavilions (semicircles on squares, very Renaissance); the main arches in units of six (limited by the laser cutting bed 900mm long); and the tapered pier sections which would be a pain to do 80-odd of consistently.

The rectangular plinth sections we will do ourselves, partly because even we can cut rectangles consistently (the bandsaw helps) but also because we want those in 4mm MDF for structural strength - laser cutting won't do thicker than 3mm because it starts burning the MDF on the top side before it has cut through to the other side.

We're looking to use embossed brick plasticard (5-6 m2 of it, so seeing if we can buy in A1 size rather than loads of A4 which would be expensive and involve a lot of joins). Next is the issue of all the details such as the arched brickwork, fancy moulding and the brackets supporting the refuges (see below). This will be done from a variety of brass etching, plastic strip, maybe doll's house type picture/dado rail stuff, and resin casting (any useful contacts for the doll's house stuff?).

I've also just noticed that although the piers and sides are mainly English bond, the exposed brickwork under the arches is mostly stretcher bond with a few header courses thrown in.

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You can keep up to date with the full story on RMWeb at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... logid=275&

The plan at the moment is for the viaduct itself (all 20ft of it) to make its debut at the RMWeb Taunton gathering in April 2011, hopefully with a bit of scenery and a couple of temporary fiddle yards and maybe even a 6PUL. After that we will see where the momentum takes us, but Balcombe station will probably be next. Trackwork for Lewes is likely to proceed in parallel but will initially just be displayed as 'future developments'.
Rod

ClikC

Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby ClikC » Tue May 04, 2010 6:53 pm

Hi Rod,

To reiterate what I said at the RMweb members day just gone, I'm really looking forward to seeing this develop. It's one of those exciting projects which only really seam to come about through P4.

Regards

Matt

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:13 pm

Today a package arrived from York Modelmaking with all our commissioned bits for the viaduct. Turnround was about 4 weeks at the end of the day, not bad at all, and on first inspection I'm very pleased with the results.

Very well packed, and a definite aroma of singed timber when you open it, reminiscent of autumn bonfires or charcoal mounds - almost made me feel like getting some roast chestnuts and mulled wine

So, what did we get? Remember this is a viaduct of 37 arches. Here is the box half-unpacked, showing the arch sections in groups of six.

lasercut components 001.jpg
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Then there are the sides for the tapered sections of the 36 piers. Nothing special as such, but it would have been difficult for us to get the consistency achieved by computer controlled repetitive cutting.

lasercut components 002.jpg
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The basal plinths, which are rectilinear, we can do ourselves with a bandsaw (they need to be thicker MDF anyway for stability). And we will be cutting the apertures ourselves as well, since they are virtually all different.

Now the pieces de resistance - the balustrades and the arched sections of the sides of the eight pavilions. There are about 150 sections of balustrade, each with 19 arches, because they need to be laminated together in pairs to get the required thickness (2mm or 3mm is the maximum the laser can cut without significant burning).

lasercut components 003.jpg
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These really are quite something, really crisp and a task that would have been impossible by hand.

lasercut components 004.jpg
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Apart from planning and ogling, there will probably be a slight lull in this project while Matford is improved and refined for Scaleforum. Then, once we know precisely the build sequence we want to adopt, it will be full steam ahead . Planning is good of course, and it won't necessarily get in the way of some components such as the pavilions (8 of those), the refuges (72 of those), and the refuge support brackets (144 of those) - that will probably be a resin casting job.
Rod

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Flymo748
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:50 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:...Planning is good of course, and it won't necessarily get in the way of some components such as the pavilions (8 of those), the refuges (72 of those), and the refuge support brackets (144 of those) - that will probably be a resin casting job.


Excuse me if I've mentioned it before, but those struck me as an ideal case for 3D printing.

This was demonstrated to us at Missenden by Ian Carter, and whilst I definitely wouldn't try a loco or coach body in it, it struck me as ideal for architectural components. The cost was presented as very reasonable as well, as it's (okay, it was at the time) purely for the material consumed, and there was an included set-up service,if the design was not too complicated.

I haven't tried them yet, but http://www.impossiblecreations.co.uk/ seems well worth exploring.

HTH
Flymo
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Rod Cameron
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Rod Cameron » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:46 pm

Yes you had mentioned it before Paul, and I probably did have that in mind but it just came out as 'resin casting' ;) I was very under the weather on Monday!

Cheers for the reminder anyway :)
Rod

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Andy C
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Andy C » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:08 pm

The more I see what York Modelmaking are doing with Laser cutting, the more impressed I am. Like you say Rod, to achieve that level of consistency on the mass replicated panels is crucial to making the end product look spot on. This will be impressive when its all together.

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Horsetan
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Horsetan » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:05 pm

The wonderful thing about setting up of the "full monty" is that the trains will actually appear to be travelling somewhere, and you can see them do it, yet still be all under the same roof.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Re6/6
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Re: Tomorrow Balcombe, the day after the world!

Postby Re6/6 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:29 pm

That's our idea Ivan. In the first instance there will be all 20ft of the viaduct with 4ft scenic boards either end plus two fiddle yards, so that we'll be able to have a 5BEL/6PUL/ 2BIL/2HAL etc trundling across.

OVV  c1.jpg
This just over half of it!
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John


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