A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

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Guy Rixon
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:55 am

That looks more attractive, more plausible and much more shuntable than the previous plans. The double loop in the yard gives more ways to handle the goods traffic, which is good for interesting operation. Some plans have one obvious way to shunt them, and after a couple of days at a show or years at home the must feel like same-old same-old. Having Old Ford road on the diagonal somehow avoids the feeling that the layout is visually cut in two by the road.

The wagon turntables are surprising. Are they there to turn single-doored vans, or were there once sidings at right angles to the main yard?

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Noel
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Noel » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:13 pm

The inner-most sidings look to be a very small radius, possibly too small? Also, depending on the baseboard height, the Wick Lane Works may be a view-blocker or an impediment to access for dealing with derailments or (un)coupling issues.
Regards
Noel

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:35 pm

I assume the wagon turntables were for single door vans, but I’m not sure. I have left off three sidings which don’t fit in the space available, they all had turntables with track coming off at right angles.

Yes, the inside curves are very tight. Questionably tight. I think I’ll need to test the tightest curve before starting on the layout to see how existing stock behaves. Luckily Park tanks are known for their ability to go around tight curves.

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bécasse
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby bécasse » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:11 pm

The two wagon TTs that you included were provided to enable vans with single-sided doors to be turned. Those in the coal yard, together with their short orthogonal sidings were provided to facilitate shunting in that area when there was no loco present, in all probability the coal merchants' own horses would have been used.

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:15 pm

I did some minimum radius testing. The tightest spot is through a turnout which Templot says is 18". This is probably only for a short length, but still 18" is tight. So I made a curve in Templot with a 17" radius. Its almost a 90 degree curve with two straight bits at the ends. Quickly constructed from pcb sleepers and reclaimed steel rail. I used DD Wheelwrights 3 point gauges which added a lot of gauge widening, as expected. Maybe too much. I tried 5 vehicles though the curve. A GWR 3 plank, 9' wheelbase; LNWR D32 Van, 9' wb; LNWR D14 Deal Wagon, 16' wb; GWR Crocodile well wagon, 37.5' wb; and a NLR Park Tank 0-6-0, 11.5' wb.
Everything went through the curve fine on its own. A couple things came off occasionally, but that could be put down to how hard I shoved them just as much as the tight radius. They can go through, even if they don't always. The problem area is buffer locking. The two 9' wheelbase wagons and the Park tank are fine, as might be expected. I can push two of them at fairly high speed repeatedly. Any individual vehicle can be propelled safely by the Park tank. I can also put a 9' wb wagon between the Park tank and one of the longer vehicles and have everything be fine. What doesn't work is having a short wb wagon beyond a long wb wagon. Park tank - D14 - Crocodile works. Park tank - Crocodile - D14 works. Park tank - D14 - D32 does not work. The D14's buffer slips inside the buffer of the D32 and then the D14 derails. This is why industrial locomotives have such large buffer heads.

So, not a resounding success, but not a complete failure either. My next step will be to print out the relevant portion of the Templot plan and lay track over the tightest curve. I'll do it as plain track, but following the outline of the turnout. This should give me a close approximation of the final geometry.

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https://youtu.be/kBg9mrIQlAk

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grovenor-2685
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:39 pm

This might help.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R1774A.pdf
Having to consider such things adds interest to the shunting puzzle. :)
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

bobwallison
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby bobwallison » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:45 pm

I suspect that any amount of gauge widening will do more harm than good when propelling four wheeled vehicles - and bogie wagons count as two four wheelers in this context. The total side play needed for the 0-6-0 you mention on a 17 inch curve is about 0.6mm, so 0.3mm each side would be sufficient without gauge widening.
The propensity for buffer locking is always greatest at entry and exit to sharp curves - have you considered short transition curves, perhaps 200mm long? Hardly prototypical in a gas works, but needs must.

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:59 pm

I have tried the as-designed trackwork and it is still too tight. I was correct that its only a short stretch that is really tight, but I still had problems. I went back to Templot and found that by changing the V settings I could quickly increase the tight radius without too much redesigning. The 1:6 crossing angle has now been changed to a 1:10. This raises the minimum radius to 24". I tested this and everything works fine. No buffer locking or derailments. I had intended this track to be for coal wagons, so all 8'6" and 9' wb, but its good more can be accommodated. Its also good I did this test. I've gone back through the Templot plan and found two other turnouts under 24". These have been enlarged with the same method. I did try a partially built A4 chassis through this curve, it was having none of it. As was to be expected. But its not really a shunter is it?

Tony Wilkins
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Tony Wilkins » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:24 pm

I remember being surprised to see standard 17' 6" wagons with both 9' and 10' wheelbase were quoted as having a minimum working radius of 1 Chain in the diagram books. This equates to 10.4 " in scale. The rub is that they must be uncoupled or worked singly round such curves,
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.


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