A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

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garethashenden
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A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:56 pm

I've become dissatisfied with my layout Queensbridge. It seemed like a good idea when I started, but it no longer fits my desires for a layout, from either an operational or realism point of view. I have found the space to make an L shaped layout with a double track mainline with fiddleyards at either end, 8'x5' scenic area.
The basic idea and what I want out of the layout are as follows. North London Railway between 1900 and 1905 modeled in P4. A double track line capable of running passenger service, complete with signaling. A goods yard, maybe just a coal yard, but goods traffic would be nice too. Part of a station at one end.

What I have done so far is to take the signaling diagram for Hampstead Heath and curve it to fit the available space. This has the advantage over something I made up of probably being correct! The downside is that it leaves the back corner of the layout needing a lot of terraced houses. Here is that plan:
Image

The other option is to fill the back corner of the layout with a gasworks. That would give me an online industry and a place for 0-4-0s to play. I need some help with the track plan of this though. I'm picturing an exchange siding, somewhere coal gets unloaded, maybe a tiny engine shed if I'm lucky. Some gasworks had internal narrow gauge lines, I think that's complicating things a bit too much. Some of this has been sketched in pencil on the Hampstead track plan. I'm ok with one track going into the fiddleyard, but I want to limit it to that. I think most of the actual gasworks would be low relief or on the backscene. Here is what I have so far:
Image

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Noel
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Noel » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:48 pm

garethashenden wrote:The other option is to fill the back corner of the layout with a gasworks.

Another possibility is to put a facing point in the further main line at the start of the curve, immediately after the trailing crossover, which splits into two tracks outside the curve. The idea is that this is a run-round loop, the end of which is offscene. From the access to this loop [i.e. before the loop proper, so a loco can run round without fouling the main] a headshunt goes off behind the station platform, from which there is access to a fan of sidings in the corner. Trains arrive in the loop, and return from it to the same fiddle yard. It would require the use of automatic couplings, but the sidings could be a coal yard; there is no reason why it has to be NLR, so it could be LNWR, GNR, or MR, all of which had facilities in the general area reached over other companies lines. The yard in the foreground would then be the NLR goods yard for general traffic.
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Noel

davebradwell
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby davebradwell » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:53 pm

You'd do best to copy one, Gareth. There may have been some small primitive works around in your time period but I suspect they're mainly vast by then. Remember that you have to load the coke back into wagons so there'd be processing plant for that. Further question is whether you distil the tar or ship it out in tar tanks for processing elsewhere which would be more likely.

Easier, of course, to just have exchange sidings and put the whole lot off-stage but you'd still need a large gasometer to make it clear what it's all about. You'd need more than a couple of sidings, too.

Peter Denny researched gasworks once upon a time. London Gasworks Museum comes up in a search but it's maybe just a document. All in all, perhaps Noel's yard might be more convincing.

You might want to work out what the North London line thought of facing points. The NER used to take trains in great loops around Tyneside just to go into major sidings engine first whereas the Midland saw them as the work of the devil. Another thing I've discovered about railways in cities is that small locations might be shunted during the night in order not to interrupt regular traffic - subject to the 'box being open, of course, and they wouldn't do that for just one train.

DaveB

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Paul Willis
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:12 pm

It's GER, not NLR, but not a million miles away geographically. It might fit your bill.

One that I used to go past the site of every day on the train in to London. Waltham Abbey gasworks. This is it from the 25" OS map on NLS.

Waltham Cross gas works.png


And the relevant entry from the Historic England publication on the gas industry:

"The site of these new gasworks was purchase in 1861. They replaced an older gasworks on Station Rd. The new gasworks were on the west side of the Great Eastern Railway, they had their own sidings. The Cheshunt and Waltham Abbey Gas Company was formed in 1843, in 1869 the Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt Gas Act incorporated the Company. In 1881,1904 and 1931 extension were made to the gasworks. The company was taken over by the Tottenham and District Gas Co in 1929/30. The Waltham Cross site was only used as a holder station after the large works at Ponders End was opened.
Remaining plant and site vested in the Eastern Gas Board from the Tottenham & District Gas Company."


https://historicengland.org.uk/research/results/reports/8018/TheManufacturedGasIndustry_Volume3

It fits your time period, it's manageable in size, and it's on a double track main line...

Cheers
Paul
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Noel
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Noel » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:12 pm

Historically, the NLR was largely in Poplar, Stepney, Bethnal Green and Shoreditch, all of which were in the LCC when ii was formed in 1889 to replace the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Metropolitan Gas Act of 1860 regulated the previously unregulated and financially ruinous competition between gas supply companies in the MBW area, following which the areas in question (and many others in and around east London) were supplied by the Gas Light Improvement Company from a small number of large [or very large in the case of Beckton] works; smaller works acquired by takeovers were closed.

In 1900-5 Waltham Cross was presumably still fairly small, although apparently growing, judging by the gas works extension, and well outside the closely built up area of inner London, and also outside the LCC area. The environment there is thus very different to the inner city East London of the time. The size of the works suggests to me that it would have been shunted by the GER.

It is up to Gareth how much he wants to 'bend' history to accommodate what he wants from his layout; my suggestion of a coal yard could have the access direct from the loop and be turned into exchange sidings, with the headshunt becoming the access to the offscene works for the works loco[s]. Other options are undoubtedly possible. The question is always what produces the most interesting layout, and the answer to that is always subjective.
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Noel

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:10 pm

I know gasworks are massive. I could just model a gasworks and not really do it justice in the space available. I was thinking of just modeling the intake lines and part of the retort house, but the scale of things is a problem. I could decide to do everything in 2mm instead of 4mm, but that's a major undertaking. So lets try to come up with a trackplan that works.

Following Noel's idea of a separate goods yard, I found Hackney Wick. It is almost exactly what was described.
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M188.gif

Right next to it is Victoria Park Junction.
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M429.gif

The overall map looks like this:
Image

If I tighten the curve, squish everything, and make the Stratford platforms either out of service or with a severe reverse curve, it might just fit!
Does loose the excuse for an 0-4-0 though as that goods yard would be worked either by the NLR or horses...

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Noel
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Noel » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:29 pm

garethashenden wrote:I found Hackney Wick. It is almost exactly what was described.

Hackney Wick goods was bigger than it looks on the posted map, and was actually two separate goods facilities, belonging to different railways :D https://maps.nls.uk/view/101919762.
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Noel

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:35 pm

I have drawn up most of this in the available space, mostly to see if it actually fits. It kinda does, but also kinda doesn't. The GNR yard is at street level, necessitating an incline down behind the mainline. I'm not sure it makes any sense to have tracks below the mainline level at the back of the layout. There also isn't really space to do justice to the NLR yard without running into the fiddleyard. The 8' width is pretty fixed, the 5' has stretched to 6', and that's ok, but it can't go much beyond that. I see now I've left out the headshunt for the yards. That can be added, but only if this location is worth pursuing, which I'm not sure of.
I did try the map feature of Templot, at full scale this would be 22 feet long...

Image

andrewnummelin
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby andrewnummelin » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:46 pm

There was a gas works on the outside of a curve near Pontypridd that may give you some ideas.
Screenshot 2022-01-09 181503.jpg

https://archive.rctcbc.gov.uk/view-item?i=19217&WINID=1641753056946&fullPage=1
Coal supplies came from top left - fun shunting! There are reports of wrong line working as well...

Another suggestion: Knights Hill goods could be curved nicely (and trimmed) to fit a corner. Used to pass it on the way to school... ( a long time ago but post LNWR!)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101919954

(In the context of getting it all right, what lamps should be on a train being propelled wrong line outside station limits?)
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Andrew Nummelin

Andrew GW
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Andrew GW » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:28 pm

In case it's any help, Peter Denny's information on gasworks (mentioned in a previous post above) is in his book Buckingham Branch LInes Part Two 1967-1993, p182-188; also apparently (according to the first paragraph of that section) in an article in the July 1989 Railway Modeller. There's also an article on gasworks by Geoff Williams in Model Railway Journal No. 37.

Another option might be to go with the idea of a railway-owned goods yard, but with the private locos of a wholly- or mostly-"offstage" gasworks (or other industry) having running rights into this yard to exchange traffic. I understand this used to happen in the goods yard of Parkstone station in Poole (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=50.72290&lon=-1.94908&layers=168&b=1), with the private line from the South Western Pottery (Rails to Poole Harbour, Colin Stone, 2nd ed. Oakwood Press 2007, p165-176). From the layout of Parkstone and some comments in the text, I think the pottery loco must have had access to the whole yard, rather than being restricted to a dedicated exchange siding.

EHLR02
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby EHLR02 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:18 pm

Hi Gareth,

There is a lot of information on gasworks on the Southwark Bridge layout website https://www.southwarkbridgelayout.org.uk. This details the model on this layout with a lot of the work carried out by Ted Stephens.

Robin

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:23 pm

I have rearranged things so that the goods yard is on the inside of the curve. What had been the NLR's goods yard now serves as a pair of exchange sidings. The GNR yard is now the NLR's but at street level. There is a spur running off to the left to a gasworks. The whole thing is off scene, with just the coming and going of wagons to show for itself. The gasworks' shunter has the ability to run up to the exchange sidings to collect or deposit wagons. I may chop it off at 5' on the right hand side, just beyond a road bridge. I can't really get the junction into less than 2' and it doesn't leave much space for a station. Although I suppose it could be a two platform station without a junction. That's probably a better solution.

Image

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Guy Rixon
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:34 pm

How's the goods yard shunted in this new scheme? I can see how the exchange sidings work, and how they connect to the gas works, but I can't see how you get to the goods shed. Does the train serving the NLR yard set back into the exchange sidings first, then run round by going out across the running lines to the junction and back wrong road to the exchange siding? Seems like a lot of line occupancy for an intensive railway like the NLR. Also, the signalling for a routine, wrong-road move from the junction box back to the exchange-sidings box might be a bit unusual. Did the NLR have special arms to signal wrong-road moves?

It could all be simplified a bit, operationally, if there were a pair of trailing crossovers into the sidings from the running road on the inside of the curve, one in the corner of the layout and one off-scene at the far end of the exchange sidings. That would allow a run-round to shunt the goods shed using only one of the running roads and staying well clear of the junction.

garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:56 am

Yes, I seem to have got things a bit backwards. When I went from the yard on the outside of the curve to the inside, I just swapped it. I should have rotated it 180*. The sidings should be where the headshunt is and the headshunt should be where the sidings are. Then the track down to the goods yard goes in the opposite direction, as does the yard. I’ll make the changes tomorrow.

The North London does seem to have been rather opposed to facing points. I haven’t found any that aren’t at junctions yet. There are lots of trailing crossovers, as well as trailing crossovers combined with single slips to give access to two tracks. I have intended for there to be some of those here, but I’ve drawn them as diamond crossings rather than slips while I figure out what I’m doing. Far faster.

bécasse
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby bécasse » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:11 am

garethashenden wrote:The North London does seem to have been rather opposed to facing points. I haven’t found any that aren’t at junctions yet. There are lots of trailing crossovers, as well as trailing crossovers combined with single slips to give access to two tracks. I have intended for there to be some of those here, but I’ve drawn them as diamond crossings rather than slips while I figure out what I’m doing. Far faster.


Not just the North London Railway but railways in Britain generally avoided facing points other than at junctions, terminal stations and other places where they were essential to the efficient operation of the railway. The Board of Trade disliked facing points and wouldn't normally approve layouts on passenger lines which included any which might be considered non-essential.

ted.stephens
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby ted.stephens » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:52 am

If you are looking for ideas for a smaller gasworks perhaps visit the Fakenham Museum of Gas http://fakenhamgasmuseum.com/.
GasHolder.JPG

Some of the equipment is available as commercial off-the-shelf products, e.g. condensers from Hornby's Skaledale range at Hattons. With a little refinement...
Condenser Combined.JPG

As noted in an earlier post there is quite a lot of information to be found on the Southwark Bridge site. In particular look in Downloads - Phoenix Gasworks for documents describing the equipment and operation of a gasworks. https://www.southwarkbridgelayout.org.uk/phoenix-gasworks .

If you need any further help feel free to contact me.
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garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:59 am

Here is the current revision. I think the operation is improved, but I would like your opinions on that. Things are much the same as before with the scenery. Gasworks to left off scene, station to right, goods yard center. What is currently a diamond crossing is in fact a double slip. Maybe I should have the trailing crossover on the mainline continue into the exchange sidings? It would give access to trains traveling in the other direction.

Image

davebradwell
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby davebradwell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:47 am

I think you started well with a prototype track plan but have strayed. In particular you seem to be chasing yourself around the inside of the curve - some of the pointwork is going to be much longer than you expect and shunting round minimum radius curves just isn't a good idea. The geometry has also forced it to sprawl, not like the tightly packed urban trackwork that might be expected although I'm sure this depends on where you are. You now have a couple of long sidings that you can only put a few wagons into at a time.

Small yards are usually fed from big yards - have you decided at which end this is because it will affect the direction of the sidings? Similarly, where's the coking coal coming from? If you made the radius of the main larger (and nothing says it has to leave the scenic bit parallel to the wall) your curved points will get shorter and, front or rear, you won't be chasing yourself round in circles quite as much. Alternately, move the mainline points into the yard offstage so you can use a straight chord. You surely just need a fan of trailing sidings and a shunting neck - just like your first proposal.

Your last map shows the railway lifted above the general land on embankment with LH end on a bridge - very 3 dimensional. You might look at some of Iain Rice's schemes for ideas with several inner city proposals in his book on layout design, one a sizeable goods depot with plenty of height.

DaveB

martin goodall
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:46 pm

I am planning to model a small gasworks on the Burford Branch. Burford did actually have a gasworks, most unsuitably situated upwind of the parish church! It seems to have operated for only about 50 years, between 1864 and 1914 (or possibly 1916). I have assumed that, with the arrival of the railway in Burford at around the time the gasworks was proposed, the gasworks would have been located in a more suitable position near the railway.

I visited the gasworks at Fakenham (also used by Peter Denny as the prototype for the gasworks at Grandborough Junction) some years ago, and took a collection of photographs, including shots of the model on display there, showing what it would have looked like when in operation.

But here’s the rub. Small gasworks of this type were generally not rail-connected, even when they were located right next to a station or its goods yard. I am aware of a number of such gasworks which had no siding connection (among them Ashburton, Moretonhampstead and Hay-on-Wye). The gasworks at Fakenham was close to not one but two railways, and yet it had no siding connection to either of them. Coal would have been unloaded in the goods yard and carted to the gasworks by road. A gasworks would have to be fairly large to need a sufficient quantity of coal to justify the cost of putting in a private siding.

This will not, of course, deter me from putting in a siding connection to my proposed gasworks, any more than it stopped Peter Denny from modelling no fewer than three gasworks on the Buckingham Branch (the one at Grandborough Junction, in particular, being in a remote rural location). In fact, the ‘prototype for everything’ excuse comes to our rescue in the form of the gasworks at Westcott on the Brill Tramway, with a siding connection straight off the main line of the tramway. This rural gasworks was presumably built to serve Lord Rothschild’s new mansion up the hill at Waddesdon Manor.

So the gasworks at Burford (which, being beyond the overline bridge, will be a project for the future) will probably have its own siding connection, even though there is really very little excuse for this in view of the modest size of the town and of its gasworks. As for the connection itself, this will be a single siding straight off the mainline, facing in the Up direction (so not accessible to a train running into the terminus). Such an arrangement would have been perfectly acceptable at a quiet branch terminus. The interlocking in the signal box lever frame (including a facing point lock), and a trap point in the siding, would give perfectly adequate protection. There would certainly be no excuse for the gasworks to have its own shunting engine; the branch goods engine would shunt the siding in the course of disposing of and reforming the branch goods. I calculate that probably no more than three wagons of gas coal would be required each week.

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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:05 pm

One other point occurs to me. Equipment from the Hornby Skaledale range is illustrated above, and I purchased items from this range myself, all of which were based on the prototypes at Fakenham. But I have come to the conclusion that I shall be able to use only the gasholder.

The Livesey washer and the condenser that Hornby modelled are late examples, and so are too modern for my 1920s-based layout. In fact I am not sure that items of this particular design could be seen even before World War 2. Unfortunately, the resin castings for the purifiers are also badly warped, so these too will have to be replaced, although I might be able to make use of the pipework and valves.

I shall probably model the old-fashioned type of condenser, a serpentine pipe fixed to the end wall of the retort house. I shall have to choose a suitable washer or scrubber to replace the late example from Fakenham.

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Neil Smith
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:15 am

martin goodall wrote:I calculate that probably no more than three wagons of gas coal would be required each week.


I too plan to include a gasworks when I (eventually) get round to building my planned layout, and towards that have been doing some research. My layout will be set in what is now Cumbria, and there is some informative research on the Cumbria Industrial History Society website - https://www.cumbria-industries.org.uk/a-z-of-industries/gasworks-in-cumbria/

One of the key takeaways for me from this site was that "a typical small works like Appleby needed on average under 2 tons of coal per day". The population of Appleby in 1901 was 850, having fallen from a peak of 960 in 1861 when the railways arrived in the town. By way of comparison, the population of Burford was not that much larger, at 1,146 in 1901.

The weekly demand for coal at Appleby would be not much more than one wagonload a week at that time, when generally the maximum loading was 10 ton. On this basis, Burford probably would need a couple of wagons a week?

Like your observations Martin, up here, many gasworks were not rail connected (my home town of Ulverston did have a siding for the gasworks' incoming coal, but this still required cartage of about a quarter of a mile). However, rule one and all that, so my planned gasworks will have its own siding..!

All the best

Neil

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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby martin goodall » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:00 pm

On the basis of its 1901 population, I agree that Burford would have required no more than two (10-ton) wagon loads of gas coal per week.

However, my calculations were based on the assumption that the arrival of the railway would have encouraged some industrial development (including the 'Burford Blankets' mill and a second brewery in the town, which I have assumed grew rather larger than Garne's Brewery on the other side of town) together with some resulting growth in the population. From memory (and I haven't checked my notes before writing this) I seem to recall that the population in 1961 was around 1,500. Hence my 'guesstimate' of three wagon loads of gas coal per week.

I have also calculated, on the basis of the increased population, that a second gasholder would have been required by the inter-war period, although basing my layout in high summer, this (if modelled) may be in a fully deflated state. Coke is likely to have been sold locally, rather than being taken away by rail.

I am also proposing to run a tar wagon, but in practice it is unlikely that there would have been more than one tankload every six weeks or so, and it is probable that smaller amounts of tar would have been collected more frequently by road tanker, rather than in a rail tank. But modeller's licence applies (in effect 'Rule 1') and so considerations of prototype accuracy won't deter me.

[I won't take this note outside the topic of gasworks and their potential rail loads, but I have also calculated the quantities of domestic and general coal, steam coal and anthracite that might have been delivered to Burford, on the assumption of the developments mentioned above. Anthracite would have been required for the brewery and its maltings.]

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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Alan Turner » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:05 pm

Whilst many small gas works didn't have a rail connection some did and here is an example from the Dudley area where the Wall Heath Gas Works was served. I think principally because it was next to a Coal Wharf of the Earl of Dudley's and served by the Pensnet Railway; rather a large and extensive private railway built to serve the Earl's coal mines.

Wharf 1.png



regards

Alan
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby Tony Wilkins » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:38 pm

It wasn't just some Gas works that didn't have rail connections. I was puzzled by one of the early maps I found of Brimsdown Power station, which showed no rail connection. It was built to supply power for the London trams and local supply was an afterthought. Coal was originally supplied by canal barge and only got a rail connection when later expanded to meet the growing demand for electricity.
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garethashenden
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Re: A New Layout with a Gasworks - Design Help Needed

Postby garethashenden » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:50 pm

I'm back with another trackplan. This time based on the station and goods yard at Old Ford, between Victoria Park Junction and Bow. I had overlooked it, but I think it has most of the things I'm looking for. With a little bit of compression and a good deal of curving, I have got it to fit in the available space. I'm not sure if I'll model any portion of Wick Lane Works. They did have their own siding which is not yet on the plan but could be added if I feel the need.

Image

Some pictures for atmosphere:
Image
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