Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

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Håkan Hessel

Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Håkan Hessel » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:53 pm

Hello,
I remember reading about a layout possibly called Midford some 30 years ago in RM or MR. It was a round layout with all tracks pointing out from the round circle. It was made to se how far it was possible to strech P4/S4 with regards to narrow curves.

In what magazine was it published and is it possible to send a copy to me of the layout - just need the layout diagram not necessarily the article.

Håkan

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Tim V
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:10 pm

Many years ago (nearly 40!) I built a round layout 'Whitchurch Halt'. It appeared at several exhibitions. Diameter of the layout was 9', track was laid to a nominal 4'2" radius.

Seen here at Railwells 1987 - which was the very first Scalefour South West.
Whitchurch Railwells 1987 OM1 268-004.jpg
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PeteT
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby PeteT » Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:43 pm

Tim elaborated a bit more here:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutswhitchurch.html

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Enigma » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:07 pm

So that was you was it TIm? I remember seeing the layout at the time but no idea who's it was. It was a revelation for some people to see P4 going round bends!

Another P4 layout I remember around a similar time was a circular layout built by Geoff Stenner (now a leading light in the S Scale Soc.) which had sidings etc. rather than just a plain circle. No idea what he called it but it (and Tim's layout) certainly de-bunked a lot of negative anti-P4 propaganda at the time. Perhaps it's time for another.

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Tim V
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:15 pm

Whitchurch's first show was Railwells '87.
City University (S4M) 1988
A couple of local shows, Keynsham and Brunel in 1989.
It went to the AGM member's day in 1992. I was busy with Clutton, but needed a test bed for DCC. Whitchurch was then refurbished and went to Railwells 2003 and S4N in 2004. It then sat in my garage, unloved till it went to pastures new.
Seen here in 2014. The track (steel rail) was by then 30 years old. No rust!
IMG__ (20).JPG
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Rdunning » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:01 am

I think the layout remembered by Hakan was called "Ashdon & Midport", which featured in the Railway Modeller in August 1986. It was based on a 7 foot diameter circle. It leaned heavily on the classic design by the late Maurice Deane included in CJ Freezer's book on layout plans for smaller railways.
"Ashdon & Midport" was joint GW/GC, the sixth iteration of a theme which had begun as EM gauge IIRC (could even have been OO originally), and struck me as a brilliant design if you were prepared to limit locos and stock to the smaller types. A lot of railway in a very small space.
I have a copy of the article in RM and could scan the layout plan for you if you would like Hakan. Let me know.

Richard

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Tim V
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:58 pm

Asdon & Midport features on 'Another lineside look at model railways' DVD, which also features Petherick. I don't remember it being P4, suppose it could have been.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b8d6c96d0
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:20 pm

Tim V
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Enigma » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:04 pm

Ashdon and Midport had several versions, some OO (I think) and others possibly EM. Whether there was a P4 version I'm not sure.

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Rdunning » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:32 pm

The Mark 6 version of "Ashdon & Midport" was definitely built to 18.83mm gauge, according to the article in the "Modeller". Apparently Mark 1 was indeed OO and the builder, Ken Ashberry, progressed to EM gauge and then P4 for the sixth edition. It was even more compact than I remembered, having now checked the article it was actually based on a six foot diameter circle, not seven foot as I posted previously. All turnouts were to A5 configuration, diverging to the outside of the circle. The overall footprint was 7'6" x 7'0".
I'm pretty sure I saw one of the earliest versions of this layout at the MRC Easter show in 1955 or 1956. Aged 6 or 7, I was lucky to have been taken by my father to Westminster Central Hall and remember reading about A & M in the show guides, which unfortunately I didn't have the wit to keep!

For the benefit of the originator I have scanned the page from the article showing the layout plan and attempted to attach it to this post as a PDF file. Hope it works.

Richard
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Enigma » Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:18 pm

Well, that's answered that then! :thumb Thanks. Really interesting, there's hope for me yet with my pointwork based on Peco Setrack small radius points. BTW, can you still get Scaleway track in 19.33mm gauge?

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby bécasse » Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:38 pm

As Tim demonstrated with Whitchurch, a simple circular layout in P4 with fine, well thought through scenery can provide an excellent backdrop for a varied procession of trains, a layout which is point less but not pointless.

I have attached a concept jpg file which shows how a rotary fiddle yard on one segment could provide accessible storage for a variety of trains running in either direction with kick backs adding to the storage capacity. For simplicity, I have only included a single track on the rotating board but it would probably be possible to include up to five - and the line through the scenic area could easily be double track rather than single.

One of the particularly clever aspects of this concept plan is the board shown in red which is intended to be hinged to the rotating storage board, preferably using piano hinges, not only strengthening the rotating board when in its upright position, but, when lowered with the rotating board in its neutral position, providing a continuous run. Not only is this useful for testing, but in show situations where the layout has a minimal "crew", it can be used to provide the continuous circulation of a single train during "personal need breaks". It isn't unusual to see layouts at French shows where similar techniques are used to keep something running during the infamous "répas de midi"(which can be quite a social event in its own right among exhibitors).

P4roundtuit.jpg
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Simon_S » Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:54 pm

I'd like to see one where the layout rotated and the train stayed still :D

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Tim V
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:01 pm

It's already been done!

Belfield Hall. The layout rotated, the train stood still (depending on the speed of the layout/train). You could get your eye down and get a driver's eye view! Great fun!
http://www.belfieldhall.co.uk/belfield/bher_2.html
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:08 pm

bécasse wrote:As Tim demonstrated with Whitchurch, a simple circular layout in P4 with fine, well thought through scenery can provide an excellent backdrop for a varied procession of trains, a layout which is point less but not pointless.
P4roundtuit.jpg


The reason why the layout was 'point less' was because the geometry of point work gets stupid. Forget about B6s, B8s, check out the pointwork in the Whitchurch staging roads. A crossover would take virtually a whole board. It would look unrealistic. Whitchurch was built as a proving ground, at the time very few continuous run layouts existed in P4 (1984), a couple of circuits of the layout would render some locos seized/broken. Made me start building better locos. Most P4 layouts then (in fact even now!) involve 15' of straight track. Whitchurch was 27' circumference ... you get the picture.
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby bécasse » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:22 pm

Tim V wrote:
The reason why the layout was 'point less' was because the geometry of point work gets stupid. Forget about B6s, B8s, check out the pointwork in the Whitchurch staging roads. A crossover would take virtually a whole board.


I realised that which is why I didn't suggest even a simple siding or passing loop within the scenic section. However plain line single (or double) track with good quality scenery provide a surprisingly adequate "layout" for the average punter at exhibitions. P4 offers the opportunity to do it, especially these days with chaired track readily achievable, and, if a good sequence of trains is available, a very satisfactory exhibition layout can be achieved. Mind you, in P4, it will still need a van to take it to and from exhibitions as I reckon that the circle needs to be an absolute minimum of 4 metres outside diameter, making each board a bit over 2 metres long - setting up and taking down should be a relatively quick task, though.

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby PeteT » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:43 pm

Tim V wrote:The reason why the layout was 'point less' was because the geometry of point work gets stupid. Forget about B6s, B8s, check out the pointwork in the Whitchurch staging roads. A crossover would take virtually a whole board


Interesting that you say that Tim - I had a quick play the other day, and managed to sort this concept with B8s and minimum radius of 39" throughout.

Granted it might not look as good as the same concept on twice the radius, but life (and especially our toys) are all in need of some degree of compromise, and if this allows something with a bit more operational interest it is more likely to get built.

I drew this up looking from that minimum, to assess the concept. It might be that expanding it slightly gives significant visual benefits - though it would soon negate the concept of an 'interesting test/proving exercise', and the size of the modules becoming unwieldy (or increasing the number of boards from 6 to 8).

rylstone circle.jpg
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Enigma » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:53 pm

I wonder how Geoff Stenner did it as I'm sure he had sidings on the scenic section. Sadly I can't remember what sort of diameter it was. Anyone in touch with him these days?

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Tim V » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:58 pm

Now the question has appeared on RMweb.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt-4372417
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John Donnelly
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:05 pm

Tim V wrote:Now the question has appeared on RMweb.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt-4372417


It appears the OP is unable/incapable of reading this thread - I had an email from the OP asking why his duplicated thread had been locked when he'd had no responses to the original.

I replied to say that he had had replies and included a direct link to this thread for him to read but I got no response...

John

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:52 pm

John,
Could you send me the email so I can check with the memsec if it is the same email address he registered?
I have emailed him twice, via the forum contact feature which uses the registered address asking if he has problems reading the topic and have had no response.
Thanks

My address, norgrove@talktalk.net
Regards
Keith
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John Donnelly
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:05 am

Keith,

I've emailed you.

John

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Geoff » Thu Jul 27, 2023 7:40 pm

I've just come across 'Enigma's' reference to my old circular 'Wyehurst' layout. This was in P4 and was exhibited between 1978 and 1982
at about seven shows, including EXPO EM North and South, finishing at Wakefield in 1982.
The layout was a single through station with sidings on eight pentagon-shaped boards with diameter of about 9'10" and 10' across the flats and points of the pentagons respectively. The minimum radius was 3'6", the points should have been pre-1900 style with straight-cut loose heel switches, but in my ignorance were mainly c10 sprung blade type, so too modern for the c.1900 period depicted. There was a passing loop, a long lay-by siding outside the main line, and two goods yard sidings inside it. I think the mainline radius was fiddled with to get the entry point for the goods yard to be viable.
I eventually sold the layout but it came back to me about eight years ago. The ballasting had been the deep 'boxed' type which covered the sleepers completely, but in the intervening 40 years or so, the PVA glue holding it down had caused the ballast to swell with the result that much of the rail had been forced away from the rivets in the sleepers. The layout was thus unusable and was dismantled.
Thank you, Enigma, for remembering it!
Geoff Stenner

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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Suddaby » Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:37 pm

I remember it well, and the running was excellent, despite the tight curves. The "party piece" move was to back a long goods train, usually hauled by a C class 0-6-0 with about 15-20 wagons behind into the layby siding. Watching it come back out and seeing the coupling slack being taken up one by one is an abiding memory I haven't forgotten. Although most of Geoff's locos were small goods or tanks, I remember at one exhibition (Wakefield, Unity Hall I think), when Paul Scott (now modelling in O gauge, and the owner of Scout Green Crossing, which strange to relate is a similar minimum space 7mm continuous run.) ran a very nice Midland 4-4-0 (may have been a 2P??) and bogie coaches round very successfully.
Geoff was one of the pioneers in P4, when things and parts supply were not as good as they are now. Some of his engines ran on Mike Sharman wheels to EM profile, set to P4 b-t-b without any problems.

Happy days!

All the best,

Kevin
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Re: Round P4/S4 layout possibly called Midford

Postby Enigma » Sat Jul 29, 2023 2:34 pm

Geoff, I remember at that Wakefield Show running Trevor Hughes's Colonel Stephens railbus set (from Mawddwy Road) round and round flat out for some time. It was running at 'slightly' more than scale speed (for slightly read considerably :)). The noise drew a small crowd to the layout! Needless to say (I think) this was towards the end of the day. Happy times :thumb


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