Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

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John Palmer
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:20 pm

Hi, Martin,

I agree this is a hard one to call, but having engaged in a similar line-drawing exercise I come to a slightly different conclusion. When drawing my lines I try to use the maximum point of contrast in the underlying picture in order to optimise their alignment. In this case my l/h line attempts to follow the outer edge of the stock rail where there is a sharp contrast between rail head and timbers/ballast:
KofL Tandem.jpg

My conclusion is that, whilst the r/h stock rail is quite well aligned in a straight, the l/h stock rail is waving about all over the place! There appears to me to be a quite perceptible reverse curve in this rail between the heel ends of the planing of the two adjacent switch tongues.

I fear this commentary may involve a fair degree of thread drift - sorry, Julian! - but perhaps it has value in illustrating how difficult it can be to capture some of the subtleties in prototype track geometry.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Martin Wynne » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:11 pm

Hi John,

Hmm. You are suggesting that heavy locos taking the right-hand road have displaced the stock rail wide-to-gauge on the left? That seems very possible.

It can be difficult to draw accurately along a rail edge in a photo, because of the top corner radius on the rail, and wear patterns on the top surface. Here instead I have drawn along the shadow:

kyle_tandem4.jpg
kyle_tandem4.jpg (310.12 KiB) Viewed 2335 times

There is some evidence of a sideways displacement, but it's unlikely to extend as far as the second switch -- the rail doesn't have a chair on the soleplate of that switch.

Looking at the intersecting shadow lines, I still think a set is the most likely explanation for the line of the rails. It will be around 1:100, so it's never going to show up very well.

On the right-hand side I have drawn a chord across the switch. If that is intended to be a ruling curve it is very poorly aligned. It looks more like a deflection to me.

Without an accurate map we can never be sure, I will see how it looks in Templot. But first a boiled egg.

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:46 pm

For what it's worth, having tried this several dozen times, I start with a very slight left hand curve from about half way between the water tank and the turntable. to the turnout that follows this tandem - so it's a single sided tandem. I think that when the turnouts are created from the LH curve, there are slight extra bends in the LH rail.

For me the issue is getting the triangle of rails around the centre crossing looking right. I found it difficult to get the 1st turnout crossing sufficiently far back from the 2nd that the wing rails of the first didn't elide into the check rail of the second. This photo shows pretty clearly they are quite separate. YET at the same time getting the 1st turnout to at least fairly closely follow the map outline; at the same time the problem was, where is the switch? - I thought I had it too far from the water tank. In this version that I thought was my last attempt I do have the wing and check rails joining up - though it made me wonder whether these rails would be as long as Templot makes them in this situation.

I didn't try doing it manually, though having successfully tackled the irregular single slip manually maybe I should have done.

I fear this commentary may involve a fair degree of thread drift


Not at all John - I'm most grateful to you and Martin for this forensic appraisal! Though TBH what I could do with from such forensic gurus is whether it's possible to say what angle the "extra" ash road turnout crossing might be!?

By the way, would the timbers remain perpendicular to the "main" LH line. If so I haven't seen yet how to do that.
Attachments
Tandem detail delete 2.PNG

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:13 pm

Hi Julian,

I've had a go at the tandem by reference to the colour photo. It worked out quite well:

Image

Image

BOX file:
kyle_tandem_45degs.box
(224.39 KiB) Downloaded 46 times

I've rotated it 45 degrees from the OS map to match your posts.

It contains rather more partial templates than usual in order to match the main road, which appears to be a string of straights and curves, and includes a split-deflection switch. In the end I found a 50-50 symmetrical switch produced the closest match (1:64 rotation for a B switch, both switches are B). Having multiple partial templates made it possible to use standard V-crossing angles -- 5.5 , 7.5 , 7.5

I've done most of the timber shoving.

cheers,

Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. And counting ...

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:05 pm

I'm greatly privileged to have half my layout designed by Mr Templot himself! :D

Very many thanks indeed Martin. I haven't opened the file yet not having access to my pc till tomorrow.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:16 am

Track plan re-designed to incorporate Martin's bespoke tandem. I've played with the dummy vehicle tool on Templot to make a Black 5 length vehicle (including tender). It "runs" on two bogies so the overhang will be less on curves. With a bit of luck there'll be just enough room for a loco to come up the shed road while another is in the ash road, the length of which depends where I put the coal platform. And there's room in front of the shed doors too.
Attachments
LAYOUT COMPLETE INC M WYNNE TANDEM 4 JULY.PNG
Black 5 next to loco shed.PNG
Black 5 on tandem.PNG
Black 5 on ash road.PNG
Black 5 by loco shed.PNG

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Noel
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:41 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:the length of which depends where I put the coal platform


The coal platform is shown on the map - the black line on the other side of the track to the water tank. It runs from 1/3rd of the length of the tank almost to the turntable. Photographs suggest that the ash road is only long enough for two wagons, so say 40 ft plus the clearance necessary to ensure parked vehicles don't foul the shed exit road.
Regards
Noel

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:19 pm

Yes Noel, I see now, and the photo at the top of this page shows the same thing if I'd only looked properly - thanks for pointing that out. It was this photo that had me thinking locos were emptied of their ash on this road - https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index ... t_id=83407
Well perhaps they did, but blocked that RH road from the tandem while they were doing so. Can't see much evidence of ash on most of the other photos that have appeared on this thread*. Perhaps there was a clean up in advance of the photographers arriving. Does anyone know, would ash from the Cummings Clan goods locos, and Black 5s, have been emptied vertically down into the pit (situated on the RH road by the shed door)?

* - actually, plenty of ash on the older photos from Jeremy

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Noel
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:21 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:It was this photo that had me thinking locos were emptied of their ash on this road - Well perhaps they did, but blocked that RH road from the tandem while they were doing so


I believe this photo pre-dates the construction of the ash road.
Regards
Noel

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:17 am

I've had a go on Templot at sleepering (interleaving; interlacing?) the ash road turnout that was being discussed on the previous page. I wonder if people think the result is a credible representation of such a turnout, bearing in mind that I'm not trying to produce an exact model, just one that makes sense; and what Martin wrote recently on the Templot Club

In lightly used yards, depots and sidings, the usual rules about rail joints and sleeper spacings often don't apply. Almost anything goes. There is no need for standard rail lengths to be used, or for the joints to be opposite one another, or for the joints to be closely supported by the adjacent sleepers. The only fixed rule is that the chairs at a rail joint must be far enough apart to leave room for a fishplate. And even then short 2-bolt fishplates may be used instead of the normal 4-bolt.


Of course Kyle might not quite come into the category of "lightly used". The rough basis of this is the CR drawing. A different approach would be to use the LNER drawing as a basis whereby I think the sleepers would generally be closer together, and long timbers used for the crossing area. The date I'm making the layout represent is early BR - before signalling was renewed is my intention.

Interleaved ash road CR.PNG
Interleaved ash road CR.PNG (19.67 KiB) Viewed 1542 times

CR Interleaved point drawing.PNG

LNER 1 in 8 interleaved.PNG

BorderCounties
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby BorderCounties » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:20 pm

Julian

While you have obviously enjoyed yourself "shoving timbers" in Templot, a much more satisfying approach would be to print out your chosen template (e.g.B7) without any sleepers i.e. rails only option, and push your ply sleepers around on the template. It's very tactile, you can view it from all directions and, if you want to start again, easily moved back to a pile of sleepers and a bare template.

All of my turnouts are sleepered - the North British didn't like paying for long timbers! The only concession I make is to use a 12" x 9' sleeper under the crossing nose, otherwise 8'6" for "main" lines and 9' for sidings.

Then there was this:

[img]
IMG_1104.JPG
[/img]
Attachments
IMG_1104.JPG

bécasse
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby bécasse » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:19 pm

BorderCounties wrote:All of my turnouts are sleepered - the North British didn't like paying for long timbers!


It wasn't so much the length that was important as the width of sleeper required to support 4-hole chairs necessarily mounted at an ever increasing angle as the two routes separated. Sleepers 14" (or even 12") wide are disproportionately expensive compared with the standard 9" width ones as they have to be cut from much bigger (and thus more scarce) trees. One answer to this problem was the use of 3-hole, or even 2-hole, chairs, the other answer was sleepered turnouts. 3-hole chairs turned out to be optimum answer, which is why eventually they were so widely adopted.

Lindsay G
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Lindsay G » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:34 pm

I recognise the top 2 drawings in Julian's post - they're 2 parts of a 3 part tracing I took from a CR drawing held in the National Archives in Edinburgh (RHP120106) headed "Double bladed catch point with crossing, 1:10 crossing 12ft blades". They're certainly getting around! Photographs weren't allowed at the time. What surprises me is the rakish angle of some sleepers in the drawing - if anything modellers will tend to make them look neater and perfectly spaced in case they look wrong. From another Caley track drawing I have for a crossover the sleepers are spaced much further apart (4' between some sleepers!) and a diamond crossing is standard sleepers throughout, no wider sleepers, no long timbers.

However, the NBR did not seem averse to the odd use of longer timbers and wider sleepers :

NBR -track1.jpg

A drawing of trackwork is one thing, how it was laid might be another. Whose going to be around to argue? If anything I'd say the sleepers look quite tight together 2/3rds to the right and five sleepers on the lower road should be more towards right angles to the track (angled more if need be to lie under the end of the check rail). Overall, don't worry about it, JFDI.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:15 pm

Thanks chaps. :)
Lindsay I wondered if it was OK to post that image which is on the Templot Club. Let me know if I should delete it.
Yes, I will soon JFDI (I had to look up the meaning of that!)
Borders Counties I find it much easier experimenting on Templot and it showed me the distance between sleepers. Rather fun is the randomising of sleeper ends that it can do for you. Below is a final version with the linked siding and connection to the tandem, sleepers arranged to fit.
Yes Becasse the question for me will be which of the Masokits chairs I should use at the crossing and the switch.
Attachments
Screenshot_2020-10-13-15-45-56-1.png

Julian Roberts
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Re: Kyle of Lochalsh MPD - track layout

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:13 pm

Well here is the sleepered turnout as I've made it. I've played fast and loose taking advantage of Martin's word that basically anything goes in yards. So in my scenario the crossing nose sleeper has been changed for a timber that links both roads together, and the switch sleepers have been renewed with timbers. Sleepers are 9ft while the timbers 8' 6". I was running out of some of the Masokits special chairs - check rails are fixed with normal running chairs, but they aren't terribly different. Three and a half weeks was the most recent cheque in the post to package through the door time from Masokits. Some of the chairs on the wing rails don't look quite right perhaps.

The loose heel switch is fixed with a phosphor bronze "fishplate" on one road, on the other the rail swivels in the jaws of a Brassmasters etched fishplate that's soldered to the closure rail. How this will last will remain to be seen.



Four turnouts made now, two to go plus a catch point. All the points have undercut blades, and I'm still "right chuffed" that they actually work, and that it's not necessary to have joggles for reliable running of propelled wagons, if the blades are made following Tony Wilkins' instructions on this Forum. This assumes vehicles have some form of suspension - this layout is not intended for vehicles without suspension.



A few photos, I'll be getting some plastic fishplates for the naked joins, a couple more cosmetic fishplates still to add.
Attachments
20201125_193616.jpg
20201125_193607.jpg
20201125_193556.jpg
20201125_193546.jpg


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